A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[Douggg]

I don't think He as teaching that unbelievers need not believe in Him as long as they are watchful.

Your view amounts to that.

No, my view does not amount to that. Unbelievers don't believe in Jesus. So they are not watching for the rapture/resurrection.

So you are saying ALL Christians because they are praying will be taken in this rapture.
This is simpy not realistic.

No, I am not saying that.

You and I are both justified by faith and have the gift of eternal life. And yet if we are honest we too do not live as watching for Him.

Maybe you are being self-reflective. Don't presume your condition to be the same as other believers.

By the parable of the fig tree generation, we know that the time of rapture/resurrection is close at hand - maybe even today. From the world....gone !

 

[oikonomia]

No, my view does not amount to that. Unbelievers don't believe in Jesus. So they are not watching for the rapture/resurrection.

Okay, that may have been an overstretched exaggeration on my part.

No, I am not saying that.


Maybe you are being self-reflective. Don't presume your condition to be the same as other believers.

My conditition personally is not the issue to what is written.
And to whom much is given (as light) much will be expected.
I feel all the more responsible if the Lord has shown me this.

This is not a matter of one's objectively knowing just a correct doctrine.
It is a matter of living with the Lord. Just doctrinal knowledge alone is not garuantee of spiritual healthiness.

By the parable of the fig tree generation, we know that the time of rapture/resurrection is close at hand - maybe even today. From the world....gone !

We are in agreement here. It could be at any time.
And wise believers who lived such abiding lives will not have done so in vain.
I think that is why we see living firstfruits raptured in Revelation14 and
deceased man-child both raptured pre-GT in Revelation 12.

I think my next post to you will be more about the OP's declaration that A rapture (however many or who you believe) catalysis
events to cast the accuser from high to more limitation - the earth only.

Thanks for the fellowship.

 

[keras]

You have strongly asserted this. But your arguments examined do not do that well.
So this is just will power to say your view is just true on your insistence.

The Bible does not tell about a general 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus says 6 times that such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10, & 2:25-26
Plus many other scriptures like Proverbs 10:30

But the greatest refutation of a rapture removal, is what the Lord actually has planned for His people. for their wellbeing and good, as He blesses them; living in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-18.....I shall lead My flock out of the nations and settle them in Zion...... [The holy land]

If what I teach - selective pre-tribulation rapture as a reward is NOT TRUE,
to live vigilantly, watching in Spirit, abiding in the indwelling Spirit of Christ lives, is a winning truth regardless.

Good luck with that idea.
It sems from many Bible stories, that the Lord does not suffer fools gladly. Those who have built their works with straw and sticks will have them burned up, but will still be saved, after passing thru fire. 1 Cor 3:13

 

[Douggg]

The Bible does not tell about a general 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus says 6 times that such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10, & 2:25-26
Plus many other scriptures like Proverbs 10:30

keras, if you vehemently speak against the rapture to heaven and also say no humans go to heaven - then should the rapture take place as pre-trib and anytime rapture believers say, then would you expect to be taken, or left here on this earth ?

But the greatest refutation of a rapture removal, is what the Lord actually has planned for His people. for their wellbeing and good, as He blesses them; living in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-18.....I shall lead My flock out of the nations and settle them in Zion...... [The holy land]

That passage is talking about the Jews.

And what does that compare to the rapture/resurrection event when them in Christ receive their everlasting eternal bodies?

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[oikonomia]

The Bible does not tell about a general 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus says 6 times that such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10, & 2:25-26
Plus many other scriptures like Proverbs 10:30

Hmmm. Well John 3:13 is about what no man has done up to that point in history.
It is not saying no ascending up to heaven will occur in the future.

As a matter of fact Paul says the church is the pillar and base of the truth after the gospel is preached in the world
looks to be "taken up in glory."(1 Tim 3:16)

Then John 8:21-23. Is that a slam dunk for "No raptures!"?

Of course before Christ accomplishes eternal redemption we cannot follow Him everywhere.
But after He accomplishes eternal redemption those like the Firstfruits can follow the Lamb wherever He goes. (Rev. 14:4)
These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go.

There's no rapture defeater there.

Then you offer John 17:15. Now this is a argument to consider.
I do not ask that You would take them out of the world, but that You would keep them out of the hands of the evil one.

But the Father is a great Lover. And Christ is a great lover longing to be with His bride for marriage.
What seperated lovers do not eventually long to no longer be apart?
The Firstfruits in heaven are to the Father's immense satisfaction.

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. (Rev. 14:1)

Now who asked when I may not know. But they are seen in heaven to the great satisfaction of the Father and the Son.
They do not arrive in heaven to the dissatisfaction of thier Father and the Son but to their great pleasure and enjoyable satisfaction.
This as witnessed by the beautiful singing and rejoicing.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. . . . the song [ of the ] the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (See Rev. 14:2,3)
There is not refutation of rapture in John 17:15 either.

Then you offer me John 7:34 ?
You will seek Me and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come.

Yet after He accomplishes redemptive death and resurrection He tells Peter he will follow Him latter.
Jesus answered him, Where I go you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later. (John 13:36b)

So it was not permanent that no one could follow Him.
And the Firstfruits seen in heaven have followed the Lamb wherever He may go. (Rev. 14:4)

Then you offer Revelation 5:10 and 2:25,26.

And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth. (5:10)
Where in there does it say they were never raptured to heaven?

Nevertheless what you have hold fast until I come.
And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; (2:25,26)
Where in there does it say such were never raptured to heaven?

Good luck with that idea.
It sems from many Bible stories, that the Lord does not suffer fools gladly. Those who have built their works with straw and sticks will have them burned up, but will still be saved, after passing thru fire. 1 Cor 3:13

Where in First Corinthians does it say Christians can never be raptured?
Where does it say Christians are fools for believing they could be raptured?

I think you need another handy Rapture Refuter Manual bud.

 

[Douggg]

John 14:

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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To the Church at Philidelphia...

Revelation 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[keras]

then should the rapture take place as pre-trib and anytime rapture believers say, then would you expect to be taken, or left here on this earth ?

I absolutely expect to stay on earth. for the rest of my natural life. I look forward to the Prophesies taking place as Written and to going into the Millennium under the rule of King Jesus.
At the end of the Mill, I will stand before God, along with everyone who has ever lived. As long as my name has not been blotted out from the Book of Life, then I will participate in heaven on the new earth; for Eternity.

That passage is talking about the Jews.

This assertion is so seriously wrong, that I despair for you.
Ezekiel 34:11-18 never mentions the Jews, WE Christians are the Lords sheep; John 10:1-27....Jesus said; Other sheep I have, they listen to My voice....then there will be one flock and one Shepherd, John 10:16

As for quoting your favourite 'rapture proof' verses, neither John 14 or Rev 3 say anything about anyone being removed.

 

[Douggg]

This assertion is so seriously wrong, that I despair for you.
Ezekiel 34:11-18 never mentions the Jews, WE Christians are the Lords sheep; John 10:1-27....Jesus said; Other sheep I have, they listen to My voice....then there will be one flock and one Shepherd, John 10:16

Ezekiel 34:1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Ezekiel 34 s talking about God bringing the Jews, the house of Israel, back to the land in the end times. To be completed in Ezekiel 39:28, Matthew 24:31.

 

[keras]

Hmmm. Well John 3:13 is about what no man has done up to that point in history.
It is not saying no ascending up to heaven will occur in the future.

John 3:13 is a definitive statement. No change or rescindment is stated or even implied.
To consider it would change, there would have to be a clear scripture which says people will go to live in heaven. Can you quote one?

As a matter of fact Paul says the church is the pillar and base of the truth after the gospel is preached in the world
looks to be "taken up in glory."(1 Tim 3:16)

Doing a Dougggg, aren't you? Saying something means what it clearly doesn't.

1 Timothy 3:18 ...the great mystery of our Christian religion; manifested in the flesh, vindicated in Spirit, seen by the angels, proclaimed and believed among the nations and raised to heavenly glory.
Our Lord; Jesus Christ, NOT the Church.

Then John 8:21-23. Is that a slam dunk for "No raptures!"?

Yes: Where He goes; that is: to heaven, we humans cannot come.
The 144,000 in Rev 7 and 14 follow the Lamb and obey His Commands, in a Spiritual way, as we all do now.
However, note that Jesus will be revealed to His own, 2 Thess 1:10 and Revelation 14:1. He will direct their paths., as they go out to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Then you offer John 17:15. Now this is a argument to consider.
I do not ask that You would take them out of the world, but that You would keep them out of the hands of the evil one.

The Lord will take His faithful peoples out of the hands of the 'beast;, by flying them to a distant place of safety. Revelation 12:14
A place on earth, proved by how the earth swallows the army sent after them. Rev 12:116

But they are seen in heaven to the great satisfaction of the Father and the Son.
They do not arrive in heaven to the dissatisfaction of thier Father and the Son but to their great pleasure and enjoyable satisfaction.
This as witnessed by the beautiful singing and rejoicing.

If you think a taking up to heaven of the Church is the epitome and the final result of Gods Plan for mankind, you are very much mistaken.

And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth. (5:10)
Where in there does it say they were never raptured to heaven?

It doesn't need to, as there is no scripture which does say there will be a rapture to heaven for anyone. Even the 2 Witnesses just meet Jesus in the cloud, at His Return and will join the other martyrs with Him; to Jerusalem.

Where does it say Christians are fools for believing they could be raptured?

2 Timothy 4:3-4 Good people WILL be fooled by fables. And the crazy idea of people being floated up to heaven, is about as fable=ous as it gets.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 34 s talking about God bringing the Jews, the house of Israel, back to the land in the end times.

The Jews are the House of Judah.
We Christan peoples are the House of Israel, Faithful believers in Jesus, from every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

WE are the descendants of Abraham by having the same faith as he had. Galatians 3:26-29

These are Biblical facts, Douggg, time to get over your wrong beliefs and realize what God really does plan for our future.

 

[Douggg]

The Jews are the House of Judah.
We Christan peoples are the House of Israel, Faithful believers in Jesus, from every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

Ephraim was considered the northern kingdom that went into Assyrian captivity, And then later,

.Judah was considered the southern kingdom, which went into Babylonian captivity.

In the end times, God has joined the two sticks together, representing Judah and Ephraim back into one unified nation - which we see over there right now in nation of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

 

[oikonomia]

John 3:13 is a definitive statement. No change or rescindment is stated or even implied.
To consider it would change, there would have to be a clear scripture which says people will go to live in heaven. Can you quote one?

I started a thread with much discussion on Heaven not being the place the saved stay in forever.
Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible? under contraversial theology.

We had much discussion on heaven being a temporary stopping place on the way to reigning on earth.
The sign of the New Jerusalem in the end is seen "coming down FROM heaven". And the reigning of the overcomers
on earth is followed by the reigning on earth of all the sons of God for eternity.

Doing a Dougggg, aren't you? Saying something means what it clearly doesn't.

No. I am somewhat like Douggg in that Douggg says the entire church on earth is raptured pre-GT.
And I am somewhat like Keras in that Keras (you) say the entire church on earth passes through the GT.

I say you are both only partially right.
I have defended I think pretty well that:
1.) A remnant of the church selected is raptured pre-GT.
2.) A larger majority of the church found not watching passes through the GT.

I have also said that neither school (your view or Douggg's) can completely ignore the valid points of the other.

1 Timothy 3:18 ...the great mystery of our Christian religion; manifested in the flesh, vindicated in Spirit, seen by the angels, proclaimed and believed among the nations and raised to heavenly glory.
Our Lord; Jesus Christ, NOT the Church.

It is Christ as the Head and the Church as His house. It is about the great mystery of godliness which is not only
Christ but the proper church. Read it again.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory.

First the mystery of God manifest in the flesh is not ONLY in Jesus Christ.
It starts in Jesus Christ and continues in the house of God, the church. READ IT.

We ought conduct ourselves in the church also living godliness - which is God manifest in the flesh.
The church as a continuation of godliness - God manifest in the flesh follows Christ. And the church
which is the house of the living God is "the pillar and base of the truth."

But the clenchpin is that "Taken up in glory" is written after "preached among the nations, believed on in the world."
If godliness were restricted to Christ then He was taken up in glory BEFORE He was preached among the nations and believed on in the world. He ascended first then the gospel went out to all the world.

But Paul mentions the taken up in glory FOLLOWING the preaching of the gospel and believed on in the world.
So consistent with his definition of godliness - God manifest in the flesh, Paul is speaking of the ascension up into glory as eventually
including the church.

Yes: Where He goes; that is: to heaven, we humans cannot come.
The 144,000 in Rev 7 and 14 follow the Lamb and obey His Commands, in a Spiritual way, as we all do now.

I fear that much repetition will become tedious to the Forum.

I have explained that the symbolic number 144,000 is re-used. But this does not insist that the 144,000 sealed Israelites in chapter 7
are the same 144,000 firstfruits seen raptured to heaven in chapter 14.

Here is the difference. The 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes in ch. 7 are preserved THROUGH the coming time of judgment.
And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea, Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:2,3)

The 144,000 firstfruits seen on a heavenly mount Zion have been "purchased from the earth" BEFORE the following judgments and calamities
of the GT as seen by all the verses following 14:1-5 until the end of the chapter in verse 20.

We might compare the two groups to two patriarchs -
Enoch walking with God and taken off the earth before the flood.
Noah walking with God and being preserved through the flood.

However, note that Jesus will be revealed to His own, 2 Thess 1:10 and Revelation 14:1. He will direct their paths., as they go out to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

This is not enough to prove to me that there can be no pre-GT rapture of a remnant.
Second Thess 1:10 - When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

1.) It does not mean that He comes with ALL of His saints. He clearly comes with the overcomers in Rev. 17 and 19.
So "when He comes to be glorified in His saints" can be a remnant who are ready for such an honor.

2.) It can mean that some are marveled at being ready for such and honor and others are marveled at afterwards until
ALL eventually are marveled at.

This would be consistent with the theme of reward, overcomers, saved with reward vs saved and suffer some kind of loss.

Revelation 14:1 speaking of 144,000 a suggest two things to me;
1.) A minority remnant.
2.) Having reached a great perfection early as FIRSTFRUITS.

And that that group is seen in heaven is beyond dispute for me.

As for the directing of paths by Christ - He can direct the paths of ALL believers.
But not all believers FOLLOW the direction well at one time.
Some learn to follow the direction early - Firstfruits and some eventually learn to follow the direction latter as Harvest.

The time element indicated by early ripening Firstfruits and latter ripening Harvest spans at least 3.5 years or somewhat more.
I will not speak to Isaiah 66 in these regards now.

The Lord will take His faithful peoples out of the hands of the 'beast;, by flying them to a distant place of safety. Revelation 12:14
A place on earth, proved by how the earth swallows the army sent after them. Rev 12:116

That the Lord causes the earth to help the rest of the woman's seed in some way does not contradict that part of her, the man-child,
was caught up to God and to His throne before that situation.

And you should have more sympathy for the Triune God and what He wants.
The Father loves the following sons of the Lamb and longs their complete presence for His satisfaction.

So indeed there is the need of God the Father for protection of His interests through the GT.
But there is also His desire to love, vindicate, and have with Him in heaven His dear sons even if a representative remnant preceeds
the majority.

It is the same with the Lord Jesus. He longs in love for the marriage to the point that as important as judging Antichrist is
it can follow His desired union with His bride.

So there is a kingdom need of God of course.
But there is also a longing love need of God too.

The ones taken as man-child focus on God's kingdom need.
The ones taken as firstfruits focus on God's need of love.

The ones seen coming with Christ as His bridal army meet the kingdom need of Christ.
Previously these same ones seen rejoicing that the marriage dinner of the Lamb has come
and they have made themselves ready for it meet the "romantic" yearning of Christ.

I think you should have a bit more sympathy for the loving yearning need of God and still believe
in the ruling, governing kingdom need of God.

If you think a taking up to heaven of the Church is the epitome and the final result of Gods Plan for mankind, you are very much mistaken.

Since I do not consider it "the final result of God's Plan" I am not mistaken.

It doesn't need to, as there is no scripture which does say there will be a rapture to heaven for anyone.

This is now tedious repetition.
The ones in heaven in Rev. 14 had to get there some way.
The ones in heaven in Rev. 19 had to get there some way.
The corporate man-child is said to be caught up to God and to His throne.
The armies following Jesus in Rev. 19 are coming from ??? . . . you guessed it, Heaven. So they must have been taken there for awhile.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:14)

So SOME followed the Lamb up into heaven by rapture and these same SOME follow Him as His army of overcomers from that place.

You may not like these visions and erect a strawman argument that the saved do not live in Heaven forever.
But then you would be saying what I am saying. This is what the Bible reveals.

Even the 2 Witnesses just meet Jesus in the cloud, at His Return and will join the other martyrs with Him; to Jerusalem.

I've no comment at this time.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 Good people WILL be fooled by fables. And the crazy idea of people being floated up to heaven, is about as fable=ous as it gets.

Lampooning the scripture with a ridiculing attitude doesn't impress me in the least.
Mockers will come in the last days. You're not above being influenced by mockers.

 

[keras]

Ephraim was considered the northern kingdom that went into Assyrian captivity,

The tribe of Ephraim is the leader of the other ten tribes. All of the ten tribes went into Assyrian exile, where they remain, until their decreed time is up. Ezekiel 4:4-5
You are wrong in thinking that Judah and Israel have rejoined. Ezekiel 37:15-28 clearly remains unfulfilled.

In the end times, God has joined the two sticks together, representing Judah and Ephraim back into one unified nation - which we see over there right now in nation of Israel.

You talk to Jews on their websites. Do they say that the full rejoining as per Ezekiel 37, has taken place?

 

[Douggg]

The tribe of Ephraim is the leader of the other ten tribes. All of the ten tribes went into Assyrian exile, where they remain, until their decreed time is up. Ezekiel 4:4-5
You are wrong in thinking that Judah and Israel have rejoined. Ezekiel 37:15-28 clearly remains unfulfilled.

Take a look at the territory of the northern ten tribes and the territory of the southern two tribes. The modern nation of Israel is comprised of both territories. One nation again.

 

[keras]

We had much discussion on heaven being a temporary stopping place on the way to reigning on earth.

And my proof that it isn't, is the non existence of any scripture saying the Church would be raptured to heaven.

I am somewhat like Douggg in that Douggg says the entire church on earth is raptured pre-GT.
And I am somewhat like Keras in that Keras (you) say the entire church on earth passes through the GT.

I say you are both only partially right.
I have defended I think pretty well that:
1.) A remnant of the church selected is raptured pre-GT.
2.) A larger majority of the church found not watching passes through the GT.

It is quite correct that the Christians will be divided into two groups during the end times.
I say the entire Church will be on earth for the 1260 day period of the Great Tribulation. Half will experience the GT and persecution for their faith. The other half will be kept safe in an earthly location, far from Jerusalem. Just as Revelation 12 clearly states.

The reason for this separation is shown to us in Daniel 11:32 and in Isaiah 28:14-15, where the leaders of the Christian peoples agree to a peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 927

It is Christ as the Head and the Church as His house. It is about the great mystery of godliness which is not only
Christ but the proper church. Read it again.

1 Timothy 3:18 is a reference to Jesus alone.
Attempting to make it fit Christian peoples, is unsupported error.

But Paul mentions the taken up in glory FOLLOWING the preaching of the gospel and believed on in the world.
So consistent with his definition of godliness - God manifest in the flesh, Paul is speaking of the ascension up into glory as eventually
including the church.

A very tenuous and flimsy theory. Paul means that the lynchpin of our faith is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
The idea of the faithful Church leaving the earth at any time, simply contravenes and cancels our Commission to preach the Gospel until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:20

I have explained that the symbolic number 144,000 is re-used. But this does not insist that the 144,000 sealed Israelites in chapter 7
are the same 144,000 firstfruits seen raptured to heaven in chapter 14.

I do not see the 144.000 as symbolic at all. It is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, an exact number.
I also do not see any difference from the 144k in Rev 7 and in Rev 14. They both go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. They are the same people; ones who have never defiled themselves.

You are fast and loose with your assumptions. Where in Rev 14 is heaven mentioned as their destination?

And that that group is seen in heaven is beyond dispute for me.

Too bad that idea is never found in the Bible.

The armies following Jesus in Rev. 19 are coming from ??? . . . you guessed it, Heaven. So they must have been taken there for awhile.

Do I need to teach you the Words of scripture?
Jesus is accompanied BY the Armies of Heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14 REBible.
And the armies which were in heaven followed Him..... KJV As other verses say: accompanied by the 'hagious', which means either angels or saints. It cannot mean saints, as they or anyone; are never said to go to heaven.

Lampooning the scripture with a ridiculing attitude doesn't impress me in the least.
Mockers will come in the last days. You're not above being influenced by mockers.

I never 'lampoon' scripture.
It is those who grip onto false theories and have wild delusions about living with God in heaven, who I castigate and try to show what God actually does plan for His peoples future,

 

[keras]

Take a look at the territory of the northern ten tribes and the territory of the southern two tribes. The modern nation of Israel is comprised of both territories. One nation again.

The entire area from the Nile to the Euphrates, will become a Christian country. If it doesn't, then God's Promise to Abraham, Genesis 15:18, will have failed.
I ask again: Do the Jews say they have rejoined with Israel? Are they as many as the sands of the sea?

 

[oikonomia]

Revelation is made known us by signs. (Rev. 1:1)

The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,

Here is one of the signs in chapter 14 -

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. (14:1)

While some believe this is Mt Zion in Jerusalem I rather explain it is a sign communicating something of the Mt. Zion in Hebrews 12
to which the church has come.

Hebrews 12:22-24 -
But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering; And to the church of the firstborn, who have been enrolled in the heavens; and to God, the Judge of all; and to the spirits of righteous men who have been made perfect; And to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, which speaks something better than that of Abel.

Because God grows in a remnant unto maturity, Firstfruits of a limited and symbolic number are seen in the sign of Revelation 14.

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

FIRST - fruits mature early. And in the OT the firstfruits were brought into the temple.
This corresponds to God's "crop" of people with the life of God in them growing into His temple - God's building. (1 Cor. 3:9)

The first of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of Jehovah your God. (Exodus 23:19)

Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest;
And he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Leviticus 3:10,11)

The HARVEST towards the end of Revelation 14 is brought to the air.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:15,16)

Compare:

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds
TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; . . . and (1 Thess 4:16,17)

Firstfruits are raptured to the third heaven like the firstfruits brought into the temple.
Harvest is brought somewhere other than the third heaven - to the air. The rapturing Lord by that time "will descend from heaven".

The early minority Firstfruits are taken before Christ begins His descent towards the earth.
The latter majority Harvest is taken as He is hovering over the earth in the cloudy pavillion in the air.

 

[Douggg]

I ask again: Do the Jews say they have rejoined with Israel? Are they as many as the sands of the sea?

No, regarding the reuniting of the northern kingdom and southern kingdom, according to the Jews at the messiah truth countermissionary site. They are looking for a kingdom, and modern-day Israel is a democracy they point out, and not a kingdom. And for that reason, that part of Ezekiel 37 has not been fulfilled yet, in their view.

I am going to ask them if they think May 14, 1948 was the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8, a nation born in one day.

Not only have the two nations of north and south been joined together again into one nation, and Isaiah 66:8 a nation born in one day fulfilled, but also Jerusalem back into the hands of the Jews 1967 fulfilling that part of the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[Douggg]

The entire area from the Nile to the Euphrates, will become a Christian country. If it doesn't, then God's Promise to Abraham, Genesis 15:18, will have failed.

Genesis 15:18 will have failed to meet your prediction. Not that Genesis 15:18 will have failed by what is the correct understanding.

 

[keras]

Revelation is made known us by signs. (Rev. 1:1)

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him so that He might show His servants what must soon take place. Rev 1:1 REBible
It is Prophecy, written is a similar manner to all the Bible prophesies, some fulfilled literally and most awaiting future fulfilment.

Thinking it's all just signs and Mt Zion is not Mt Zion, just makes for confusion and clueless of what must; in our time: soon take place.