Deathbed Confessions

[Caliban]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

 

[Lost4words]

He would be doing it out of love for his mum. To give her peace.

It would be up to God to judge his actions.

 

[zippy2006]

Is it moral?

Certainly not.

Empathy is Not Charity | Patricia Snow

 

[Caliban]

He would be doing it out of love for his mum. To give her peace.

It would be up to God to judge his actions.

But I am wondering what humans think--not a god.

 

[Caliban]

Certainly not.

Empathy is Not Charity | Patricia Snow

Why not?

 

[Lost4words]

But I am wondering what humans think--not a god.

Doesnt matter what we think though.

 

[Caliban]

Doesnt matter what we think though.

To my estimation, it absolutely does. That is how we pass laws and judge right and wrong. No one can do our thinking for us.

 

[Lost4words]

To my estimation, it absolutely does. That is how we pass laws and judge right and wrong. No one can do our thinking for us.

What you were asking anout has nothing to do with any law.

 

[durangodawood]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

Tough question.

The compassion is lovely, easing her anguish etc.

Otoh, one of your last interactions with your mother is a giant lie. What does that do to a person?

 

[Caliban]

What you were asking anout has nothing to do with any law.

I get your point but, I was referring to your claim that, "It doesn't matter what we think..." My point is that it does matter what we think about morals because we use our moral reasoning to decide important issues such as what laws best govern a society, all the way down to how a person should relate to their mother on her death bed. It absolutely matters what we think.

 

[Caliban]

Tough question.

The compassion is lovely, easing her anguish etc.

Otoh, one of your last interactions with your mother is a giant lie. What does that do to a person?

I know--that would feel terrible. But I can see the compassion in the lie too. Quite a delima.

 

[durangodawood]

I know--that would feel terrible. But I can see the compassion in the lie too. Quite a delima.

Is it moral for you to give us such anguished dilemmas?
_yes
_no

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

Your dilemma is one of the few ones were lying might be condoned in general Christian ethics. The other sort of dilemma where this frequently pops up is telling the lies to save someones life, like how people lied to the Nazis to misdirect them from the Jews hiding out.


But truth telling as an absolute also works when not confronting really extreme cases like Genocide etc..... There are many reasons on that. Lately, I would name some Philosophical videos on the benefits of truth telling from the Stoics and other folks. And from the Judeo-Christian tradition there are lots of similar kind of ideas especially in regards to the Hebraic concept of Truth, which is something that will bring about Shalom/Peace (wholeness, health, structural integrity etc.) in the long run.

 

[Caliban]

Your dilemma is one of the few ones were lying might be condoned in general Christian ethics. The other sort of dilemma where this frequently pops up is telling the lies to save someones life, like how people lied to the Nazis to misdirect them from the Jews hiding out.


But truth telling as an absolute also works when not confronting really extreme cases like Genocide etc..... There are many reasons on that. Lately, I would name some Philosophical videos on the benefits of truth telling from the Stoics and other folks. And from the Judeo-Christian tradition there are lots of similar kind of ideas especially in regards to the Hebraic concept of Truth, which is something that will bring about Shalom/Peace (wholeness, health, structural integrity etc.) in the long run.

That's a good video--thanks for sharing it.
There are times when lying is the most moral thing to do. I don't think the scenario I proposed is one of them, but I think the moral ambiguity is interesting and I don't know how I would handle a similar situation.

 

[Job3315]

But I am wondering what humans think--not a god.

FYI: Christians are God's ambassadors. We are supposed to rule the world under His command. Jesus is the head, we are His body.

 

[com7fy8]

Well, he might get her into feeling good . . .

if she can not tell the difference between him lying and telling the truth.

If the Holy Spirit knows He has not saved her son, the Holy Spirit is not going to confirm to her that he is saved. And she might be able to tell that the Holy Spirit is not bearing witness to his claim; and so she could say, no sweetheart you don't need to do that; I really care about where you will spend eternity; so please don't try to pamper me about a thing as important as this.

But if she can't tell the difference, after she dies she will find out.

And it is not good for him to keep on in unbelief; that is not moral for him > by lying, he is committing himself to going on without truly trusting in Jesus, and that is not good.

Also, though, what he considers to be faith might not be what she knows God is looking for. What he says, then, could give himself away, and she will see he is not talking about salvation. But, then, of course, she could say, that is not what you need to do, and talk with him about it. If she cares about him, she will evaluate him, and not be hasty and wishful.

 

[Caliban]

FYI: Christians are God's ambassadors. We are supposed to rule the world under His command. Jesus is the head, we are His body.

I don't see the connection to this thread. Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Caliban]

Well, he might get her into feeling good . . .

if she can not tell the difference between him lying and telling the truth.

If the Holy Spirit knows He has not saved her son, the Holy Spirit is not going to confirm to her that he is saved. And she might be able to tell that the Holy Spirit is not bearing witness to his claim; and so she could say, no sweetheart you don't need to do that; I really care about where you will spend eternity; so please don't try to pamper me about a thing as important as this.

But if she can't tell the difference, after she dies she will find out.

And it is not good for him to keep on in unbelief; that is not moral for him > by lying, he is committing himself to going on without truly trusting in Jesus, and that is not good.

Also, though, what he considers to be faith might not be what she knows God is looking for. What he says, then, could give himself away, and she will see he is not talking about salvation. But, then, of course, she could say, that is not what you need to do, and talk with him about it. If she cares about him, she will evaluate him, and not be hasty and wishful.

I am more or less thinking about whether it is right or wrong for him to lie to her, than any theological concept.

 

[durangodawood]

...But if she can't tell the difference, after she dies she will find out....

Heaven must be unbearable if you know your eternity is matched by the eternal torment of people you loved on earth.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That's a good video--thanks for sharing it.
There are times when lying is the most moral thing to do. I don't think the scenario I proposed is one of them, but I think the moral ambiguity is interesting and I don't know how I would handle a similar situation.

In thinking about the video more, I think that honesty in a radical, absolute type sense it can work. Basically, people like to come up with extreme case "thought experiments", dilemmas etc. But generally it never explored the notion of the path that got you there. Hitler and concentration camps did not just appear over night for instance. There is a gradual build up to that, and along that path there is lots of people doing things like "picking their battles", "taking the path of least resistance" etc. and kind of lying to themselves, turning a blind eye etc. that actually allows that sort of thing.

So the radical truth end of things can work, that is if you can stomach immediately standing up to it and being one of the first casualties of Totalitarianism or whatever Social Ill is running around. Martyred Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer being an example often cited for such things.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer