Death Penalty

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BAFRIEND

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The death penalty in the US could be moral given the fact that Jesus stated to give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. In that sense, the death penalty in the US could be even more moral than giving unto Caesar because the death penalty, assured very recently by the US Supreme Court, is devided by a jury of peers.

I used to participate with a group of my fellows parishoners in Sacramento- in a monthly protest against the death penalty at the state capital. My views have changed though. I amonly against the death penalty as now the system only serves to prolong the victims suffering, promotes institutionalized revenge, takes too long, and allows an attorney a lavish lifestyle on the taxpayers dime.
 
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Technocrat2010

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http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp

And from the Catechism...

Capital Punishment


2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor. "If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. "Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/fifth.html
 
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BAFRIEND

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"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'

Only if you choose to competely disregard the fact that the safety of other prisoners and the prison staff are in constant danger is it "...very rare, if not practically non-existent."

How many people every year get murdered in jail or in prison ?
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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Only if you choose to competely disregard the fact that the safety of other prisoners and the prison staff are in constant danger is it "...very rare, if not practically non-existent."

How many people every year get murdered in jail or in prison ?

*NOTE TO LURKERS*

To completely understand what might on the surface seem like moral relativism vis a vis the death penalty and abortion as pertains to logic like this as compared to logic on other threads directly on abortion you must understand this:

Many Catholics believe that you cannot nuance abortion because the prohibition on abortion is an article of faith and therefore cannot be disputed. While, on the other hand, the position on the death penalty is merely a teaching and therefore a Catholic is allowed to use his conscience to discern the exact morality of the death penalty.

If the supporting logic allowing a Catholic to hold abortion immoral while the death penalty is up for grabs seems itself to be morally relativistic well....


....sorry, on that one you're on you own.

But it might help you to understand this logic if you also understand that, for Catholics at least, a cafeteria is for other people, no REAL Catholic would be found it one.

*Class dismissed*
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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The death penalty in the US could be moral given the fact that Jesus stated to give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. In that sense, the death penalty in the US could be even more moral than giving unto Caesar because the death penalty, assured very recently by the US Supreme Court, is devided by a jury of peers.

Doesn't this reason excuse any action taken through the state?
 
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Fish and Bread

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Only if you choose to competely disregard the fact that the safety of other prisoners and the prison staff are in constant danger is it "...very rare, if not practically non-existent."

How many people every year get murdered in jail or in prison ?

Prison murders and prison rapes occur primarily because there is an attitude of callousness by society in general and often the prison staffs in particular toward the human dignity and lives themselves of their prisons. How many prison rape jokes have you heard? People think prisoners have it coming. It's disgusting and in a way it makes some of the people staffing this institutions partly responsible for the crimes when their purposeful negligence contributes to allow them to happen. There's no reason in a high security facility to give anyone the chance to rape or murder anyone. And if it means we have to hire a few extra people to man security cameras, or build more rooms so prisoners have their own cells, then those are things we ought to do. Allowing this sort of stuff debases us as much as it debases prisoners.

Similarly, the death penalty debases us as well. When we kill in the name of justice, we make a mockery of any notion that we have a respect for life, so long as there is an alternative. If we were a wandering tribe of nomads and couldn't imprision people, or were an extremely poor nation and couldn't afford to imprision people, then there might be an excuse. But not today and not in the developed world.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Only if you choose to competely disregard the fact that the safety of other prisoners and the prison staff are in constant danger is it "...very rare, if not practically non-existent."

How many people every year get murdered in jail or in prison ?

The homicide rate in state prisons was 4 per 100,000 in 2002. For the general population, it was 5.6 per 100,000 for the same year.
 
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InTheCloud

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What he said:

I amonly against the death penalty as now the system only serves to prolong the victims suffering, promotes institutionalized revenge, takes too long, and allows an attorney a lavish lifestyle on the taxpayers dime.

And I'm a lawyer.
 
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InTheCloud

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Prison murders and prison rapes occur primarily because there is an attitude of callousness by society in general and often the prison staffs in particular toward the human dignity and lives themselves of their prisons. How many prison rape jokes have you heard? People think prisoners have it coming. It's disgusting and in a way it makes some of the people staffing this institutions partly responsible for the crimes when their purposeful negligence contributes to allow them to happen. There's no reason in a high security facility to give anyone the chance to rape or murder anyone. And if it means we have to hire a few extra people to man security cameras, or build more rooms so prisoners have their own cells, then those are things we ought to do. Allowing this sort of stuff debases us as much as it debases prisoners.

As Susan Brownmiller pointed, prision rapes are a defacto part of the prision experience. And the authorities accept and promote that.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Many Catholics believe that you cannot nuance abortion because the prohibition on abortion is an article of faith and therefore cannot be disputed. While, on the other hand, the position on the death penalty is merely a teaching and therefore a Catholic is allowed to use his conscience to discern the exact morality of the death penalty.

There is a big difference between murdering an innocent child who has no voice and killing an adult criminal who has had due process of law.
 
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ElviraRio

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Tell me how the death penalty is moral according to Catholic teaching as practiced in the United States and in the current situation of the United States.
It's not. If I understand it correctly, it's sanctioned by each state and as Catholics we should contact our local legislators.

people want to point out the inconsistancy of being for the death penalty but anti abortion. welp, though I am against the dp, there is a world of difference between a criminial who has made decisions knowing full well the potential consequences (we're talking about murdering thugs here)- and an innocent baby. Also, it's the state's job to protect it's citizenry. So while I oppose the dp and want to see it abolished, the real inconsistency here lies w/ people who vehemenly oppose the dp, but for all intents purposes, have no problem w/ abortion being legal.
 
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Davidnic

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Tell me how the death penalty is moral according to Catholic teaching as practiced in the United States and in the current situation of the United States.

Put me down for one more for: it's not. Any situation that would justify capitol punishment under Catholic teaching is so hypothetical that it is comically non-existent. And as practiced in the US at the moment it is totally against Catholic teaching.
 
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Davidnic

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I cannot for the life of me understand why for some people there is more urgency to end state sanctioned execution than there is to use legal means to end abortion.

I don't see why ending both is mutually exclusive. Both can only be ended by a conversion of heart to Christ and to protect the dignity of all life.
 
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Davidnic

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At which point one would think it would become a mutually exclusive priority. I was under the impression this conversation is happening amongst Christians.


It is. It think that abortion is the most important issue we face. The right to life must be assured to the most vulnerable and innocent. It is the prerequisite for all other rights. But as the pro-life logic is followed out...the death penalty too, needs to be abolished. I think we agree that this happens by stopping abortion first. But the people who oppose one and support the other can really confuse people.
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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It is. It think that abortion is the most important issue we face. The right to life must be assured to the most vulnerable and innocent. It is the prerequisite for all other rights.

I still think you have this 180 degrees wrong.

All experiential evidence points to abortions being reduced as other social justices issues are addressed rather than other social justice issues being addresses because abortion is illegal.

I really think put abortion front and center and refusing to address anything else before addressing it is a Republician canard to insure we don't make any progress on a social justice agenda.
 
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