Death Before the Fall

KTskater

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I've been pondering this for a few months now, and I have spoken with some of my more well-read YEC friends and haven't found any answers that satisfy me yet. My thought process goes something like this:
1. If God created every animal and plant as a product of special creation, then they were created in their current form ~6,000 years ago with no change in structures.
2. This means that God created predators with dentition and a digestive system specialized for consuming meat. These specializations would not have been needed in the garden.

This means one of three things:
1. After the fall, God stepped in and did more acts of special creation to alter certain animals to be predators in the new fallen world.
2. Those structures were put there from the beginning because God knew man would disobey.
3. There is some biological mechanism that can produce changes in the structure of animals (i.e. mutations + selection).

I don't buy number two, because I feel like it's a cop out. Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?
 

miamited

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Hi kt,

It would seem to me that Genesis 1:30 tells you how God originally made things, as far as what was given as food for all creatures. No one can really say what the power of sin, in which the creation continually groans, has really changed what God created for good. Is it possible that Able's body was torn by wild animals who came across it and found a liking for meat just as we have a liking for sin. Of course, if we carry that on out through the first generations we may find that a lot of animals tastes in food changed as they found dead flesh to gorge on.

I really like coffee. I will usually fix a cup first thing in the morning and drink several cups throughout the day. However, recently a fought a tooth and nail battle with cellulitis and was given some very powerful antibiotics to fight the bacteria running rampant in my body. The antibiotics, which I am still on, have caused me to have a nearly perpetual bitterness in my taste buds and now I can hardly force myself to drink a cup of coffee because it just seems so bitter. Have I evolved? Or, has something that was introduced into my body changed somehow the chemistry of how and what foods I enjoy?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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ChetSinger

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I've been pondering this for a few months now, and I have spoken with some of my more well-read YEC friends and haven't found any answers that satisfy me yet. My thought process goes something like this:
1. If God created every animal and plant as a product of special creation, then they were created in their current form ~6,000 years ago with no change in structures.
2. This means that God created predators with dentition and a digestive system specialized for consuming meat. These specializations would not have been needed in the garden.

This means one of three things:
1. After the fall, God stepped in and did more acts of special creation to alter certain animals to be predators in the new fallen world.
2. Those structures were put there from the beginning because God knew man would disobey.
3. There is some biological mechanism that can produce changes in the structure of animals (i.e. mutations + selection).

I don't buy number two, because I feel like it's a cop out. Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?
Heh, I'd actually choose number two. :) God already had a redemptive plan ready, should it prove necessary. That means at the very least he was thinking ahead of contingencies, should creation fall. Perhaps those contingencies were wide in scope.
 
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Aman777

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mia:>>Hi kt,

It would seem to me that Genesis 1:30 tells you how God originally made things, as far as what was given as food for all creatures.

Dear mia, Genesis 1:30 is prophecy of a future event which will not happen until after Jesus returns to this planet. At no time in history have ALL creatures been vegetarians and at no time in history has mankind had dominion or rule over every other living creature. ie. Polar Bears, Sharks and Viruses

We live today at Genesis 1:27 since God is STILL creating mankind "in His Image" or in Christ. Here is what will happen after Jesus returns to this planet:

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.


Hope this helps.

In Love,
Aman
 
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KTskater

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Hi kt,

It would seem to me that Genesis 1:30 tells you how God originally made things, as far as what was given as food for all creatures. No one can really say what the power of sin, in which the creation continually groans, has really changed what God created for good. Is it possible that Able's body was torn by wild animals who came across it and found a liking for meat just as we have a liking for sin. Of course, if we carry that on out through the first generations we may find that a lot of animals tastes in food changed as they found dead flesh to gorge on.

I really like coffee. I will usually fix a cup first thing in the morning and drink several cups throughout the day. However, recently a fought a tooth and nail battle with cellulitis and was given some very powerful antibiotics to fight the bacteria running rampant in my body. The antibiotics, which I am still on, have caused me to have a nearly perpetual bitterness in my taste buds and now I can hardly force myself to drink a cup of coffee because it just seems so bitter. Have I evolved? Or, has something that was introduced into my body changed somehow the chemistry of how and what foods I enjoy?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I think you're missing the point. Herbivores and carnivores are structurally different. It's not that they like to eat different things, it's that their bodies are designed to eat different things.
It would be like your body forming extra receptors for caffeine to bind to in order to make your consumption of coffee more efficient. You become more physically specialized to drink coffee.
 
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dysert

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I've been pondering this for a few months now, and I have spoken with some of my more well-read YEC friends and haven't found any answers that satisfy me yet. My thought process goes something like this:
1. If God created every animal and plant as a product of special creation, then they were created in their current form ~6,000 years ago with no change in structures.
2. This means that God created predators with dentition and a digestive system specialized for consuming meat. These specializations would not have been needed in the garden.

This means one of three things:
1. After the fall, God stepped in and did more acts of special creation to alter certain animals to be predators in the new fallen world.
2. Those structures were put there from the beginning because God knew man would disobey.
3. There is some biological mechanism that can produce changes in the structure of animals (i.e. mutations + selection).

I don't buy number two, because I feel like it's a cop out. Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?
Maybe it's obvious to everyone else, but what does this have to do with "death before the Fall"?
 
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miamited

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mia:>>Hi kt,

It would seem to me that Genesis 1:30 tells you how God originally made things, as far as what was given as food for all creatures.

Dear mia, Genesis 1:30 is prophecy of a future event which will not happen until after Jesus returns to this planet. At no time in history have ALL creatures been vegetarians and at no time in history has mankind had dominion or rule over every other living creature. ie. Polar Bears, Sharks and Viruses.

Well, I guess since you say so and you have evidence, of course of the operation of God's creation before the fall, I must defer to your greater knowledge, which I don't have.

We live today at Genesis 1:27 since God is STILL creating mankind "in His Image" or in Christ. Here is what will happen after Jesus returns to this planet:

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.


Hope this helps.

In Love,
Aman

No, it doesn't provide any help for me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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ChetSinger

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What's wrong with that?
Genesis describes the animals being given plants as food. And Isaiah describes a future time when the animals once again will eat plants.

This is a favorite topic of mine. I'm looking forward to the day when the animals are no longer carnivorous.
 
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miamited

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Predators existed, and therefore killed and ate other animals.

On what evidence do you make that claim? That's what I want to know. Were you there? Did you see a lion eat a gazelle before Adam and Eve disobeyed God? Or is this rather just what you have assumed is a logical assumption to be made based on the wisdom of man that earth is billions of years old? How could all these animals have lived for millions of years and none of them died?

Well, friend, the Scriptural model doesn't presume that there were millions of years before Adam and Eve sinned. For all we know the creation may have only been a week old or maybe a couple of years old. All we can say for certain as to a timeline from the creation to Adam and Eve's disobedience is that it happened sometime between day 6 of this realm of creation and Seth being born 130 years later. We are not told when Cain and Able were born, but we know that sin had already entered the world before Cain killed Able. Otherwise that would have been the opening of sin in the Scriptures.

So, let me ask you, IF, one does decide to go with the literal Scriptural model, is it then impossible to believe that for a week or a few years no animals died? After all, according to the Scriptural model they were all made healthy and perfect, so death from disease or weakness would not have been a particularly difficult concept to understand and agree with.

You don't know! That's really all there is to it and you can throw out all of the scientific postulations and extrapolations of what we know now and try to make that fit reality then, but they are only postulations and extrapolations of men. We have absolutely no eye witness testimony whereby we can say with any real surety that before the fall, life on earth was the same as it is today. None!

Now, each is free to believe what he will and I will not stand in anyone's way to believe what they desire to believe, but do not make the mistake of claiming 'proof' and 'evidence' of something of which no one, listen carefully no one, knows.

As for me, I'm going with God's word being authored by the Holy Spirit and yes, I know that he was there. He is one that I can look to with all confidence that he was there and was a witness to the creation and is the only one who can really tell me with any assurance what happened in the days of, and immediately following, the miraculous creation event of God. He, despite the claims of another poster, was there and knows whether or not there really was a period, no matter how long or short it may have been, that all living creatures ate plants.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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KTskater

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On what evidence do you make that claim? That's what I want to know. Were you there? Did you see a lion eat a gazelle before Adam and Eve disobeyed God? Or is this rather just what you have assumed is a logical assumption to be made based on the wisdom of man that earth is billions of years old? How could all these animals have lived for millions of years and none of them died?

Well, friend, the Scriptural model doesn't presume that there were millions of years before Adam and Eve sinned. For all we know the creation may have only been a week old or maybe a couple of years old. All we can say for certain as to a timeline from the creation to Adam and Eve's disobedience is that it happened sometime between day 6 of this realm of creation and Seth being born 130 years later. We are not told when Cain and Able were born, but we know that sin had already entered the world before Cain killed Able. Otherwise that would have been the opening of sin in the Scriptures.

So, let me ask you, IF, one does decide to go with the literal Scriptural model, is it then impossible to believe that for a week or a few years no animals died? After all, according to the Scriptural model they were all made healthy and perfect, so death from disease or weakness would not have been a particularly difficult concept to understand and agree with.

You don't know! That's really all there is to it and you can throw out all of the scientific postulations and extrapolations of what we know now and try to make that fit reality then, but they are only postulations and extrapolations of men. We have absolutely no eye witness testimony whereby we can say with any real surety that before the fall, life on earth was the same as it is today. None!

Now, each is free to believe what he will and I will not stand in anyone's way to believe what they desire to believe, but do not make the mistake of claiming 'proof' and 'evidence' of something of which no one, listen carefully no one, knows.

As for me, I'm going with God's word being authored by the Holy Spirit and yes, I know that he was there. He is one that I can look to with all confidence that he was there and was a witness to the creation and is the only one who can really tell me with any assurance what happened in the days of, and immediately following, the miraculous creation event of God. He, despite the claims of another poster, was there and knows whether or not there really was a period, no matter how long or short it may have been, that all living creatures ate plants.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I was responding to someone else about the premise being presented in this thread. Presenting the premise doesn't mean claiming it as truth. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

I'd like it if you responded my comment on your first post rather than my clarification of the topic to another poster.

With regard to this post, I'm not making any claims toward truth. If you read the OP, I give three possible conclusions/explanations to the presence of predators before the fall.
My question for you is that if God intended for these animals to NOT be carnivores (which we can infer from Genesis 1:30), why would He create them with structures specialized for eating meat? This question still remains regardless of how much time was spent in the garden before the fall.

Most people will turn to my second possible conclusion, because it the easiest. I'm attempting to investigate the possibility of the other two conclusions.
 
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troodon

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It's not just predatory teeth and claws, venom and poisons would have no purpose in a world with no animal death. Carnivorous plants like the venus fly trap... did they used to catch seeds or something? Carrion flowers - did these smell like rotting flesh before the Fall, or did they evolve that afterwards? Jellyfish used their tentacles and their stingers to catch algae? The cephalopod beak... I can't even come up with a joke answer for that one.

The more I think about it the more I think marine organisms pose the best refutation of this idea. There isn't a lot of plant-like material in the oceans to be grazed upon, and marine organisms have these complex trophic webs and are often very well-adapted for carnivory. I'm supposed to believe that they were all filter-feeders (who never accidentally slurped up animal larvae)?

And the anatomy of herbivores and carnivores is different, as KTskater said - herbivores need to employ some sort of strategy to help them digest plant matter. It's why herbivores have grinding teeth and it's why ruminants chew cud. You need to employ some method to help you break up plant material if you're going to make your living doing it. I know YECs don't believe me when I say this, but this is why for the first few million years of the Cenozoic mammals had such difficulty adapting to herbivory - because they had not yet evolved good strategies for digesting plants.

A question which would bug me if I believed this is how did the change happen? What happened to tigers that told them "okay, you should start killing things now"? Why did Great White fetuses suddenly start engaging in cannibalism? Why did flies start laying their eggs on dead organisms as opposed to, uh, whatever they laid them on before the Fall?

It's not the best falsification of YEC, but it's another aspect of it that (IMO) doesn't make sense.
 
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Aman777

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Kt:>>Most people will turn to my second possible conclusion, because it the easiest. I'm attempting to investigate the possibility of the other two conclusions.

Dear Kt, Darkness or death was present BEFORE the first day. Genesis 1:2 It was upon the face of the deep and God was moved by it. God had brought the first elements of the creation into the physical, but death was upon them. The reason is simple. God had created them APART from Himself, and only God is good, perfect, and eternal. How could He have a perfect, eternal, heaven with elements which were contaminated with Death, should be the question.

God knew that in order to have an eternal heaven, He must bring anything made apart from Himself, into Himself. He spoke and said Let there be light. Jesus came forth from within the Father into the physical world. Jesus would defeat the darkness or death and fill heaven with perfect, physical, people who would live forever with Him because they would be "created in God's Image" or in Him, in Christ.

At the end of time the following is the last act of Jesus:

1Cr 15:26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Jesus IS Lord.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?

Before the fall was an entirely different existence because Adam was immortal.
But yes, God has given all life the ability to change and adapt to the fallen
environment as it continues to decay. Eating meat is a result of the
sinful condition.
 
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There are so many biblical problems with "no death before the fall", I can hardly believe it's still core YEC theology. It's like they're giving us a gift or something.

For instance:

Why is there a "tree of life" if there is no death?

Why does the threat of death mean anything to Adam if there is no death?

The ground is cursed, not Adam; why is his lifespan changed if he lived forever and didn't need the tree of life?
 
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Calminian

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I've been pondering this for a few months now, and I have spoken with some of my more well-read YEC friends and haven't found any answers that satisfy me yet. My thought process goes something like this:
1. If God created every animal and plant as a product of special creation, then they were created in their current form ~6,000 years ago with no change in structures.
2. This means that God created predators with dentition and a digestive system specialized for consuming meat. These specializations would not have been needed in the garden.

This means one of three things:
1. After the fall, God stepped in and did more acts of special creation to alter certain animals to be predators in the new fallen world.
2. Those structures were put there from the beginning because God knew man would disobey.
3. There is some biological mechanism that can produce changes in the structure of animals (i.e. mutations + selection).

I don't buy number two, because I feel like it's a cop out. Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?

Changes are implied when God laid down several curses. I would say #1 certainly has to be true to an extent, as there are explicit changes mentioned.

Now that doesn't mean He didn't also anticipate some things, and therefore put some defense-attack systems in place, but this seems unlikely to me. For the following biological and material changes for certain took place:

1) Physical death - All humans and animals began physically dying. There most certainly have to be a change made in all species for this to happen. Whatever it was, it was not there in the beginning when God declared everything to be good.

2) Snakes (nachash) were physically changed. This is an explicit fact. How they were changed cannot be known for certain, but a change took place that affect their locomotion. The removing of their legs seems implied as that's the only thing that seems to fit.

3) Other animals were cursed and by implication also changed. "Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;" The implication is others were cursed and changed as the snake, but to a lesser degree or in a way that was less symbolically humiliating.

4) Pain in childbirth. This is also a physical change. Pain in general perhaps was new as well, but pain in childbirth was not part of the original design. Now by implication, this also extended to some mammals as some of them also experience pain giving birth—some a great deal of pain! This also must have been brought about by a modification of God after the curse.

5) Attitude changes in women and in men. The woman was to start having the desire to control her husband as part of the Curse. Why, what changed? Perhaps something in the brain, but this was not part of her original created tendencies. By implication animals also must have been changed in there area, as they also can be quite hostile to the opposite gender of their own kind.

6) Thorns and Thistles added to plants. Yet another explicit change. These are obvious defense systems that were not part of the original design. Now some plants would have sharp piercing protrusions coming out of them. Some animals have these as well, and it's a reasonable inference they received theirs at the time of the curse as well.

7) Cursed is the ground. A change in the soil making it hard to grow crops Another explicit change. What exactly changed, we do not know, but the original soil was different. Something in it changed at the time of the Curse.

Now this doesn't rule out #2 completely, but it does support #1 to at least some degree. I just don't see the necessity of #2. Certainly God knew what was coming, but it seems more likely he would make all the changes He wanted at the time of the Curse since he was making changes then anyway.

Now number 3 also can come into play, but I highly doubt some of the major defense-attack-systems slowly developed. The changes mutations would cause would have to be more subtle, like perhaps Polar Bears losing the skin between their toes so their feet became webbed. Maybe elephants losing their long hair and things like that. But developing a quill in place of fur? That would seem to have to be design or modification of a design.

That's my 2¢
 
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Calminian

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There are so many biblical problems with "no death before the fall", I can hardly believe it's still core YEC theology. It's like they're giving us a gift or something.

For instance:

Why is there a "tree of life" if there is no death?

Why does the threat of death mean anything to Adam if there is no death?

The ground is cursed, not Adam; why is his lifespan changed if he lived forever and didn't need the tree of life?

I think I could help you with some of those, but it's a bit off topic. But start a new thread, and we'll tackle those.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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I've been pondering this for a few months now, and I have spoken with some of my more well-read YEC friends and haven't found any answers that satisfy me yet. My thought process goes something like this:
1. If God created every animal and plant as a product of special creation, then they were created in their current form ~6,000 years ago with no change in structures.
2. This means that God created predators with dentition and a digestive system specialized for consuming meat. These specializations would not have been needed in the garden.

This means one of three things:
1. After the fall, God stepped in and did more acts of special creation to alter certain animals to be predators in the new fallen world.
2. Those structures were put there from the beginning because God knew man would disobey.
3. There is some biological mechanism that can produce changes in the structure of animals (i.e. mutations + selection).

I don't buy number two, because I feel like it's a cop out. Do you all have any thoughts on predators existing before the fall?

There was predation from the beginning; insectivorous bats for example are designed to hunt insects etc. The YECs have got it wrong; the first chapter of Genesis is based on the Enuma Elish or something similar. The creation wasn’t very good. The second creation account is probably based on another creation myth.
 
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