Dealbreaker?

[EtainSkirata]

Hi everyone,

For the last few months my boyfriend and I have had on and off conversation about internet piracy. I'm of the stance that it's stealing, it's immoral, and we as Christians shouldn't do it. He used to be of the mindset that piracy wasn't stealing and was therefore okay. However, when I explained that it's illegal, he realized that I have a point and agreed not to do it anymore.

We might have a bit of a quandary about an app that he uses that allows him to download YouTube videos to his phone to watch offline (music, tutorials, whatever he's interested in). I spent hours researching to see if there's some way this could be legal and, unless it's not copyrighted, it's not legal.

So anyway, I intend to bring this up to him, but when I tried to broach the subject on a phone call just now, he started to sound frustrated so I backed off. We've had extensive discussions about legality and civil suits and the coding that goes into how YouTube works, etc. So me not being comfortable with internet piracy or the like is not a new subject for him.

My question is: I have determined that the way he uses this third party app is not legal (it has the option to stream and download YouTube videos without a lot of YouTube website fluff, so to speak--I think the download part is the only part that isn't legal). But if he decides to continue to download copyrighted stuff, despite me pointing out that it's illegal... my thought is that isn't really grounds to break up with him. Or maybe it should be? I know he's a man who tries to do the right thing and to follow God. I might be over reacting if I broke up with him over this... but I wanted to see what others think. Granted, in this day and age, I sort of feel like getting mad at him for this would be like getting mad at him for speeding--and I want to bring this up graciously, so I'm waiting until later when he's not tired. I just tend to think in terms of our future kids--is he gonna tell them it's ok to do this?

 

[Freth]

When I was a young boy, I remember how people would use methods like foil on their TV set to pull in premium channels like HBO, and even go so far as using modified cable boxes to circumvent locks on premium channels.

I remember a time when cassette tapes were popular, and just about everyone swapped copies of albums and mix tapes back and forth. Most people considered it okay to do so. The same with making your own CD compilations. How many people still have those? And now we have videos people upload to the internet for free, but some content creators monetize. Anyone can download a YouTube video, even a monetized one. Is it piracy to download a monetized video vs a non-monetized video?

What about software? Is it okay to pirate Adobe products, for instance? They now have a subscription model, and many other developers are adopting the same concept—to control piracy. Thousands of hours go into creating and improving software like Adobe Photoshop.

What about websites like this one that rely on ad revenue? Is it okay to use an ad blocker and is that piracy?

What I'm getting at is what constitutes piracy seems to be a gray area that varies from one person to the next, and there are so many things people do every day that deny revenue in some form or another to owners of intellectual property.

Here is my conviction concerning piracy. I used to pirate music in MP3 form. I used to pirate movies. I used to pirate software. I used to pirate PC games. I did it all. What it came down to for me was my own personal beliefs and convictions. I decided that I should start supporting people who are creative and make things that I find useful or enjoy. And so I changed my ways and started registering software, buying movies, buying CD's and supporting content creators. (These days none of these things are a priority; this was when I was not a Christian.)

Is piracy a reason to break up with a person? I would take a hard look at their character and the activities they're doing, and decide. If you can't abide by it, and consider it piracy, I would first give the person a chance to change their ways, but if they are not convicted whatsoever by their actions, then I would say that speaks to their character and is something that will rear its ugly head down the road.

One of my best friends was a thief. He stole and even sold things he stole for money. I don't hang out with him any more. Haven't for years.

Hope this helps. God bless!

 

[EtainSkirata]

When I was a young boy, I remember how people would use methods like foil on their TV set to pull in premium channels like HBO, and even go so far as using modified cable boxes to circumvent locks on premium channels.

I remember a time when cassette tapes were popular, and just about everyone swapped copies of albums and mix tapes back and forth. Most people considered it okay to do so. The same with making your own CD compilations. How many people still have those? And now we have videos people upload to the internet for free, but some content creators monetize. Anyone can download a YouTube video, even a monetized one. Is it piracy to download a monetized video vs a non-monetized video?

What about software? Is it okay to pirate Adobe products, for instance? They now have a subscription model, and many other developers are adopting the same concept—to control piracy. Thousands of hours go into creating and improving software like Adobe Photoshop.

What about websites like this one that rely on ad revenue? Is it okay to use an ad blocker and is that piracy?

What I'm getting at is what constitutes piracy seems to be a gray area that varies from one person to the next, and there are so many things people do every day that deny revenue in some form or another to owners of intellectual property.

Here is my conviction concerning piracy. I used to pirate music in MP3 form. I used to pirate movies. I used to pirate software. I used to pirate PC games. I did it all. What it came down to for me was my own personal beliefs and convictions. I decided that I should start supporting people who are creative and make things that I find useful or enjoy. And so I changed my ways and started registering software, buying movies, buying CD's and supporting content creators. (These days none of these things are a priority; this was when I was not a Christian.)

Is piracy a reason to break up with a person? I would take a hard look at their character and the activities they're doing, and decide. If you can't abide by it, and consider it piracy, I would first give the person a chance to change their ways, but if they are not convicted whatsoever by their actions, then I would say that speaks to their character and is something that will rear its ugly head down the road.

One of my best friends was a thief. He stole and even sold things he stole for money. I don't hang out with him any more. Haven't for years.

Hope this helps. God bless!

Thanks for answering! We've been dating for a year now, and I would say that his character is definitely of a man who wants to do the right thing and follow God. He also just really doesn't like using YouTube itself for a whole variety of reasons, some of them being I think because YouTube promotes terrible things.

Anyway. We've had a conversation before about piracy, and he's agreed not to do it anymore. I just don't know if he made the connection that the app he has ALSO does pirate-y things--downloading videos and songs from YouTube is still illegal despite having an app that does it for you.

I didn't get a chance to talk to him about it today. But I do think it's sort of like speeding--we all realize it's wrong, but sometimes we do it anyway. I'm not going to break up with him if he speeds sometimes.

Usually the scenario when someone speeds is, you realize you're doing wrong and you hit the brakes. So I'd expect a similar response from him, or I hope I get a similar response, regarding downloading videos...

I don't want to freak out about it either; I know he strives to do the right thing. I'm just worried because it's kind of a tough spot--he only stooped pirating because it's illegal, not because he thinks it's morally wrong.

 

[turkle]

As I see it, the point is not about the piracy and whether or not it is allowable. The point is that 1) your boyfriend knows that you have ethical issues with it but doesn't see it as a problem, and 2) that despite wanting to follow God, he is justifying content theft because he doesn't feel it's a big deal. Despite the fact that you pointed out the illegality of it. He is minimizing it, and leading you to do the same.

Illegal is illegal, regardless of how we feel about it. Speeding is illegal regardless of if we justify it, or "everyone does it". The issue, as I see it, is if your boyfriend is going to ignore rules and your feelings about it because he wants to, then it's entirely possible that he will do the same thing with bigger issues. For example, he might ogle beautiful women and then justify it by saying he's just looking. Things like that.

That is the conversation that I would pursue with him if you are serious about him. If he doesn't respect your ethical standards while you are dating, then he is unlikely to respect them when you're married.

 

[studentinprayer]

My question is: I have determined that the way he uses this third party app is not legal (it has the option to stream and download YouTube videos without a lot of YouTube website fluff, so to speak--I think the download part is the only part that isn't legal).

Illegal, definitely not. Against the terms of service - in spirit, and he can do so 'legally'(officially through the app) if he pays for YouTube premium(there by directly paying for content rather than through watching ads which requires online viewing). But let's put that aside as it's trivial and talk about the legalism you are expressing for a second. Last point on subject though maybe consider getting it for him this as a gift verses pressing him to do it your way?

You seem to oft stress yourself that this poor boy is up to something by finding his way in the world? These are not relationship altering issues, they are minor disagreements of which you will have a lot more of in your life. And you definitely would be overreacting if you broke up with him(or started a fight / got mad) over disagreeing with you on these sorts of minor moral issues. Heck you'd be on more solid ground getting mad about his speeding as he might in that case be putting people in danger. More importantly this way of approaching a relationship is not something you want to get into a marriage with. It doesn't feel good for you or him or future children.

Voicing these topics and talking it out. Healthy and wonderful. Getting emotionally invested to the point where most onlookers will perceive your micromanaging your partners life is seeking a codependent dynamic.

Especially when raising kids. In general, dad's will often teach kids to take more risks well mothers warn of dangers. Both are very important to raising healthy children without deep resentment toward their parents.

In my experience and his behaviour aside, you might have a permissive bounty function which would result in heighten anxiety about relationships, tendency to nitpick or be seen as over-reacting to disagreement. It comes from certain upbringings lacking the healthy development of self-autonomy. With time and increased trust, if true it would actually get worse not better even if he reacts quite well to it now.

If true, what could you do to fight this constant anxiety? Well, first know you likely have two tools that will tempt you but just feed the cycle: a) keeping your anxious opinions to yourself then likely explode unfiltered sometimes b) talking-out each one as they arise.

Instead:
1) Recognize this is all about you feeling insecure. Only you can change that feeling. Deal with your feelings first then evaluate his.
2) Speak with a filter but seek words that clarify and make your 'criticism' impersonal not just nicer keeping you the hero of the story
3) Don't seek perfection in yourself or others. Just contemplate core values and keys that keep the spirit of your standards. There is a trap of the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law. It's not great to be technically right. It great to have a reputation for understanding the context that allows circumstantial right.

Hopefully this was helpful. Happy to expand if your interested.

 

[EtainSkirata]

Well, to answer both new comments... I talked to him about it last night. This was after spending HOURS researching copyright law and asking questions on StackExchange. And the point I came to was, in short, I'm not ok with him downloading music; but as far as everything else goes, I'm just so confused (because apparently it could be illegal to find a picture of a cat online and download and send it to my mom).

But in response to my music comment, he said he doesn't have music downloaded. He just streams it online. From the app which basically acts as an ad blocker to YouTube. So, that concern is pretty much unfounded.

I have (likely) OCD, and I tend to hyperfixate on problems. Instead of doing my research for a trip we're taking, for example, I was studying the Sony vs Betamax case.

I'm just so anxious and torn up because I've gone so far down this rabbit hole and I don't know where to go from here. Boyfriend or no boyfriend. @studentinprayer had a lot to say about anxiety and nit picking and boy, do I ever. Not even just with my boyfriend. (Although what did you mean by "a permissive bounty function?")

 

[studentinprayer]

And the point I came to was, in short, I'm not ok with him downloading music; but as far as everything else goes, I'm just so confused (because apparently it's illegal to find a picture of a cat online and download and send it to my mom).

In this regard, I would again suggest considering buying him YouTube premium which comes with YouTube music. This only improves his experience and will often change the pirating habit overtime as the 'legit' way just feels better even though the grey ad blocker approach does the same. It's fun to compensate creators when it's win-win, it not fun to out of fear pay big corporations that work against the little guy. How you frame the decision determines the moral action.

I have (likely) OCD, and I tend to hyperfixate on problems. Instead of doing my research for a trip we're taking, for example, I was studying the Sony vs Betamax case.

I'm just so anxious and torn up because I've gone so far down this rabbit hole and I don't know where to go from here. Boyfriend or no boyfriend. @studentinprayer had a lot to say about anxiety and nit picking and boy, do I ever. Not even just with my boyfriend. (Although what did you mean by "a permissive bounty function?")

Healthy boundaries can be summed up in the serenity prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

A permissive bounty function is a lens of the world with turmoil in knowing what you can affect, reservation to change anything, and an inconsistent application of both acceptance and bold action.

Boundaries being your sense of self.

Permissive boundaries, meaning you wear your buttons on the outside allowing others too much power over your emotional state and which as a consequence means your empathetic actions to others don't stop when they edge into the intrusive territory.

If a illustration helps, think of a mother who is said to be over-involved in her child life, there-in her child feels helpless rather than supported. This is because the mother can not see where she ends and the child begins. The child is seen instead as an extension of her, because she does perceive the boundary of the child. Their hurt is her hurt and she must act accordingly. Her fear is their fear and she must respond in kind. etc etc.

 

[EtainSkirata]

In this regard, I would again suggest considering buying him YouTube premium which comes with YouTube music. This only improves his experience and will often change the pirating habit overtime as the 'legit' way just feels better even though the grey ad blocker approach does the same. It's fun to compensate creators when it's win-win, it not fun to out of fear pay big corporations that work against the little guy. How you frame the decision determines the moral action.


Healthy boundaries can be summed up in the serenity prayer:

A permissive bounty function is a lens of the world with turmoil in knowing what you can affect, reservation to change anything, and an inconsistent application of both acceptance and bold action.

Boundaries being your sense of self.

Permissive boundaries, meaning you wear your buttons on the outside allowing others too much power over your emotional state and which as a consequence means your empathetic actions to others don't stop when they edge into the intrusive territory.

If a illustration helps, think of a mother who is said to be over-involved in her child life, there-in her child feels helpless rather than supported. This is because the mother can not see where she ends and the child begins. The child is seen instead as an extension of her, because she does perceive the boundary of the child. Their hurt is her hurt and she must act accordingly. Her fear is their fear and she must respond in kind. etc etc.

I mean, he definitely wouldn't like a YT premium subscription, because he thinks that company is evil. He said more or less that he'd just stop using YouTube all together. He only uses YT because he follows informational channels. In fact, in general he doesn't listen to music nearly as much as I do.

We had a conversation about copyright on Sunday, and I was/am quite torn up about it. Because you're telling me that it's illegal to download and send a cat video I found on Facebook to my mom? I can understand big stuff, like books and music and movies. But little stuff? How do you know what's fair use and what isn't?

My bf argues that you can't know because we're not lawyers. And as far as Christians following the law of the land, specifically "convoluted man made laws," you do your best and, per USA law you're innocent until proven guilty.

But if I can make the argument that me downloading a cat video is probably fine (maybe), then he could make the argument that downloading a book without paying is fine also because it could fall under fair use, but he's not sure but he's pretty sure. Or something like that. We only talked about YouTube videos and music on Sunday. The last we left off on piracy on general was that he agreed to stop doing it because it's illegal.


I hope this all makes sense. I'm just so torn up about this.

 

[coffee4u]

I mean, he definitely wouldn't like a YT premium subscription, because he thinks that company is evil. He said more or less that he'd just stop using YouTube all together. He only uses YT because he follows informational channels. In fact, in general he doesn't listen to music nearly as much as I do.

We had a conversation about copyright on Sunday, and I was/am quite torn up about it. Because you're telling me that it's illegal to download and send a cat video I found on Facebook to my mom? I can understand big stuff, like books and music and movies. But little stuff? How do you know what's fair use and what isn't?

My bf argues that you can't know because we're not lawyers. And as far as Christians following the law of the land, specifically "convoluted man made laws," you do your best and, per USA law you're innocent until proven guilty.

But if I can make the argument that me downloading a cat video is probably fine (maybe), then he could make the argument that downloading a book without paying is fine also because it could fall under fair use, but he's not sure but he's pretty sure. Or something like that. We only talked about YouTube videos and music on Sunday. The last we left off on piracy on general was that he agreed to stop doing it because it's illegal.


I hope this all makes sense. I'm just so torn up about this.

Life and situations are rarely black and white. They are all shades of grey. But the point of living right before God isn't digging and digging into something to find those clear answers as often there are none. But simply living as your heart leads. It can be a never ending tunnel as you will find it has gnarls and knots and odd shades to it, and you will end up tied up in knots of uncertainty and legalism.

legalism will steal your joy and turn something pleasant and innocent like a cat video into guilt and grief which is a far greater wrong then the legalities of sending it in the first place. In reality it is unlikely the owner of said video minded in the slightest and it created a moment of joy for you both.

Legalism is sometimes slid into and without realizing you have swapped one wrong for another. It is easy for the legalistic to become nit picky of others, focusing on the plank in another's eye while overlooking the one in their own because the rules and legalities are being focused on so much, that things such as being gentle of spirit, loving and forgiving fall to the side in pursuit of 'nailing down' this infraction that looms so large when really it was a pebble the whole time.

“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: ‘Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!’? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” Colossians 2:20-23

Do things in good faith, with a pure heart and unless something is clearly and easily seen to be wrong, don't go digging. Also don't dwell in past sins, not your own or others. Repent and move on.