Cruel spouse

[Paidiske]

So I think she would benefit from the assistance of a qualified counselor. Other posters have raised concerns that churches often don't provide useful support. I don't know if this is people's experience from generations past, or assumptions, or what.

I also agree that counselling is a good next step. (You'll notice I raised this in my first post).

However, pastors/ministers/clergy are often not the right people to deliver that (and I say that as a priest myself). We are generally speaking not trained and accredited as counsellors. Our training in dealing with abuse issues is routinely inadequate to the pastoral situation. A good and well trained member of the clergy will recognise his or her own limitations and refer on, but many do not.

In my pastoral work I have often, sometimes years after the fact, been dealing with people whose damage due to abuse has been compounded by the clergy or well meaning but untrained people in the church who have given advice driven by ideology rather than expertise. It is an absolute disgrace to the church that we have perpetuated a culture in which this seems to be routine for believers who are abused. I think that those of us who are aware of these issues have a responsibility to do everything we can to turn the tide on that fact, and that's why several of us are arguing that appropriate professional help, which may well not have a church association, is important in an instance such as the OP's.

 

[akmom]

Thank you for the clarification, Paidiske. I have only been a member of two churches since adulthood, and both had pastors with degrees in Christian counseling, as did their wives, making them uniquely qualified to guide couples. Their salaries support them in being able to offer their services to the church and community as needed. When you speak of "referring out," I assume you are talking about paid professionals who bill their actual clients by the hour. I know this has becomes normal, but such a model just seems wrong. And in the case of an abuse victim, this puts those services out of reach! The clergy model makes much more sense and better meets people's needs. Perhaps the problem is best addressed by churches by providing this training and certification for their staff?

 

[All4Christ]

Thank you for the clarification, Paidiske. I have only been a member of two churches since adulthood, and both had pastors with degrees in Christian counseling, as did their wives, making them uniquely qualified to guide couples. Their salaries support them in being able to offer their services to the church and community as needed. When you speak of "referring out," I assume you are talking about paid professionals who bill their actual clients by the hour. I know this has becomes normal, but such a model just seems wrong. And in the case of an abuse victim, this puts those services out of reach! The clergy model makes much more sense and better meets people's needs. Perhaps the problem is best addressed by churches by providing this training and certification for their staff?

Some churches (such as my own) have trained counselors who also attended seminary. They are not attached to a specific church, but serve the needs of the local Orthodox churches. They do not charge individuals that are referred by churches but do see others outside of the church as well. They are paid some by the church archdiocese for these services instead of charging the person attending the counseling sessions.

 

[Paidiske]

When you speak of "referring out," I assume you are talking about paid professionals who bill their actual clients by the hour. I know this has becomes normal, but such a model just seems wrong. And in the case of an abuse victim, this puts those services out of reach! The clergy model makes much more sense and better meets people's needs. Perhaps the problem is best addressed by churches by providing this training and certification for their staff?

In general, referring on would mean to someone who bills for their work, yes. But I would have no objection to the church meeting that cost in some way, and models for that (such as Laura describes) do exist in some places and are a good thing. We could certainly do more in that area.

I'm not sure about the training question. Already clergy training is long and heavy (I took six years to be qualified), and it is not possible for any one person to be expert in everything the clergy might encounter. I think having a base level of ability as a generalist, with specialisation in the spiritual side of things (which other professionals neglect), and the recognition of where the edges of our professional competence are, allows us to work well as part of a bigger system of care and support for vulnerable people, and that this is appropriate.

 

[mkgal1]

I have only been a member of two churches since adulthood, and both had pastors with degrees in Christian counseling, as did their wives, making them uniquely qualified to guide couples.

This isn't true (that getting degrees from seminary qualifies them to guide couples in the case of abuse). That's (very unfortunately and strangely) not covered in seminary. That fact is showing it's bad fruit in our churches. But that's--mostly-- another thread.

 

[mkgal1]

OP~ you may find this web site to be helpful: http://southlakecounseling.org/tag/2015-shannon-thomas/

I'm praying for you (and sort of concerned as you haven't been back).

 

[Dave-W]

I would have 2 questions:

1 - who did the OP's pre-marital counseling? These attitudes should have shown up there where they could have been dealt with before you got married.

2 - who discipled the OP's husband as a believer? They seriously fell down on the job.

 

[mkgal1]

1 - who did the OP's pre-marital counseling? These attitudes should have shown up there where they could have been dealt with before you got married.

People that are abusive (and this is a hint in discerning whether a person knows what they're doing is wrong but they do it anyway or they just have some "bad habits" that need to be worked on) know how to charm.....know how to "act compassionate and kind" when it counts (like during pre-marital counseling).

 

[All4Christ]

People that are abusive (and this is a hint in discerning whether a person knows what they're doing is wrong but they do it anyway or they just have some "bad habits" that need to be worked on) know how to charm.....know how to "act compassionate and kind" when it counts (like during pre-marital counseling).

Very very true. This is how respected teachers, deacons, pastors, public leaders and more can abuse others without getting caught.

 

[mkgal1]

And in the case of an abuse victim, this puts those services out of reach! The clergy model makes much more sense and better meets people's needs. Perhaps the problem is best addressed by churches by providing this training and certification for their staff?

Since the statistics are telling us that domestic abuse is no less (sometimes higher because of some false teaching in some churches)...then I whole-heartedly agree with you that church leaders need training.

Jeff Crippen was confronted with the reality that abuse was rampant in his own congregation and educated himself (now he's committed to educating other pastors about it). This is his web site: https://cryingoutforjustice.com/

It also looks like the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church has a proactive system in place: http://www.lcms.org/socialissues/domesticviolence

 

[mkgal1]

Very very true. This is how respected teachers, deacons, pastors, public leaders and more can abuse others without getting caught.

Right....and that's JUST where abusive people like to position them selves. It gives the impression that "so and so is such a 'good person'.....they would NEVER do something like that".

Paul (and Jesus---as recorded in Matthew 7:15) instructs us in the NT to be "aware" of wolves in sheep's clothing. Wolves don't move around in their own "skin".....they parade around as "good and respectable". We need to learn HOW to be "aware".

 

[Dave-W]

People that are abusive (and this is a hint in discerning whether a person knows what they're doing is wrong but they do it anyway or they just have some "bad habits" that need to be worked on) know how to charm.....know how to "act compassionate and kind" when it counts (like during pre-marital counseling).

True - but a seasoned counselor with the gifts of word of knowledge and word of wisdom will be able to see right thru that smokescreen.

 

[All4Christ]

True - but a seasoned counselor with the gifts of word of knowledge and word of wisdom will be able to see right thru that smokescreen.

Unfortunately not all pre-marital counselors have that and some miss the signs.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

That's the problem with throwing around the term "abuse" and labeling someone "abuser," as if they're a different species and incapable of human interaction. The minute someone describes behavior that is concerning, everyone proclaims, "He's one of THOSE. Run for your life!"

People are hurt and broken, and need love, healing, and deliverance - this is why most act out. I would never condone physical abuse, but the world has gone crazy with calling every bad verbal behavior/conflict emotional and verbal abuse, and saying it's biblical grounds for divorce! I guess it's another one of Satan's tactics to destroy marriages. I'm so sad to see this all over the marriage forums.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

Not everyone says it isn't salvageable, but your responses seem to imply that emotional, verbal and other abuse is not real abuse and is not very damaging both to the woman and her children. (It can be as damaging as physical abuse.) Downplaying it to that degree is a very damaging view for Christians to promote. If I misunderstand your point, then I apologize, but I am curious as to your answer to my previous question.

I have experienced other forms of abuse - and it is very real. Women often feel like they can't go to churches about it - because many people say that she is overreacting. Many tell her comments like "it is just a passionate argument. We all get passionate when we get upset! It's not like he's going to murder her!" Also, these types of abuse also often escalate into physical or sexual abuse.

I'm guessing the church downplays it because of God and what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us is so much bigger than our spouse calling us a bad word, shaming, or belittling us. Maybe the church downplays it because they know that we are supposed to be getting our identity, purpose, security, and confidence from our relationship with Jesus Christ.. so in comparison, verbal abuse is small when your faith is large and mature.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm guessing the church downplays it because of God and what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us is so much bigger than our spouse calling us a bad word, shaming, or belittling us. Maybe the church downplays it because they know that we are supposed to be getting our identity, purpose, security, and confidence from our relationship with Jesus Christ.. so in comparison, verbal abuse is small when your faith is large and mature.

The Church is supposed to be about love. Are you saying the church should condone that behavior of spouses? I'm not saying we should promote divorce. That said, focusing on our relationship with Jesus Christ doesn't make it right to ignore the needs of those who are hurting. Do you really support ignoring brokenness in relationships and not supporting people when they are hurting??

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

The Church is supposed to be about love. Are you saying the church should condone that behavior of spouses? I'm not saying we should promote divorce. That said, focusing on our relationship with Jesus Christ doesn't make it right to ignore the needs of those who are hurting. Do you really support ignoring brokenness in relationships and not supporting people when they are hurting??

Ignoring and not supporting? Oh gosh no that is mean and cruel. I'm a big hugger, so that's my first response. I definitely am not about condoning, overlooking, etc.. and don't think the church is about those things either.

I think we are supporting when we tell them to look at what they do have control over - their faith and prayer life, yielding to the power of the Holy Spirit living inside them. Them realizing that God will not give us anything to deal with without giving us the GRACE to ensure it. I think it's supportive to let them know that they aren't responsible for their's spouse's sins, or the abuser's emotional health. Some make think that approach isn't supportive?

When someone joins in with my pain or affirms what I already believe (I was mistreated, etc), I never feel better. When they point me to Christ, and help me take the focus off how I am being wronged, I find instant peace.. that's just me. I do have a pole in my eye, and I haven't yet been glorified.. so.. that is all I am saying. We are all broken, and "supporting hurt people" means different things to different people.

 

[mkgal1]

Ignoring and not supporting? Oh gosh no that is mean and cruel. I'm a big hugger, so that's my first response. I definitely am not about condoning, overlooking, etc.. and don't think the church is about those things either.

A person that's dealing with an abusive situation is going to need a lot more than a hug (and I don't wish for that to sound harsh).

Let me tell you from experience, though: the church at large IS about condoning.....overlooking...and sometimes even teaching doctrine that encourages an imbalance that allows for abuse.

I think we are supporting when we tell them to look at what they do have control over - their faith and prayer life, yielding to the power of the Holy Spirit living inside them. Them realizing that God will not give us anything to deal with without giving us the GRACE to ensure it.

God isn't the one "giving" the abuse----the abuser is. People have free will.....and sometimes they use that free will to torture their families for years (all while the whole gang is coming to church each Sunday).

About your "encouragement" that "God will not give us anything without the grace to ensure it"?

>>>“God never gives you more than you can bear.” It is frequently “quoted” to people in times of distress with great certainty. Everything will be alright—the suffering one is told—God wouldn’t have given you this trial if you couldn’t get through it.

Right off the bat, however, there are two basic problems with that quote.

II. THE TEXTS
First, it’s not in the Bible. There’s a quote like it; but there is nothing that says “God will never give you more than you can bear.” [rest of article: http://www.aumethodists.org/worship...3-god-never-gives-you-more-than-you-can-bear/]

 

[mkgal1]

People are hurt and broken, and need love, healing, and deliverance - this is why most act out.

This isn't true of abusers. They aren't abusing because they are hurt.....they feel entitled....they believe they are "superior" or "the authority" and when churches feed more into that attitude, they are further empowered (and the church that promotes that teaching is joining in as an ally of the abuse).

The distinction between a person of good will that's acting out of hurt and an abuser is that one that's of good will works towards true reconciliation. An abuser denies wrong-doing and doesn't apologize (because they feel they are within their right to do what they've done).

 

[Living4HisGlory]

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