Creationists dressing up themodynamic laws with a null hypotheses.

[Biologist]

- Thermodynamics vs. Evolutionism -

The article is long. Much longer than is should be, the question is:
"Does Evolution violate the laws of Thermodynamics?"

The answer is: Since earth is an open system the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not applicable in proving or disproving the Theory of Evolution.

This isn't debatable, the law ceases to be a law in an open system.

Where the article went wrong(Obvious lies):

Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated [closed] systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems

Here's the moment in time where the author went wrong. He changes from the Second Law to a null hypothesis and rambles on for paragraphs about said null hypothesis.

This statement is saying is that the entropy of a closed system or an open system cannot decrease. Which turns a very consistant observation(Second Law) into an entirely null hypothesis.

In short, the “open system” argument fails to adequately justify evolutionist speculation in the face of the second law.

No it doesn't. It only fails in the face of a bait and switch argument where the writer went from the Second Law to a null hypothesis.

Most highly respected evolutionist scientists (some of whom have been quoted above with care—and within context) acknowledge this fact, many even acknowledging the problem it causes the theory to which they subscribe.

The quotes were about the Second Law not the null hypothesis.

 

[Aggie]

Where the article went wrong(Obvious lies):

Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated [closed] systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems

Here's the moment in time where the author went wrong. He changes from the Second Law to a null hypothesis and rambles on for paragraphs about said null hypothesis.

That quote isn’t from the article’s author, it’s from Dr. John Ross in Chemical and Engineering News. John Ross isn’t a creationist.

 

[Gracchus]

What the second law of thermodynamic says is that heat (thermo-) will not spontaneously flow (-dynamics) from a cooler object to a warmer one. That's it.

Now if you unplug your refrigerator, you can demonstrate this. Heat will flow from the warmer room to the cooler refrigerator. You have made the refrigerator-room into a closed system.

If you plug the refrigerator back in, you have made the refigerator-room back into an open system, because your are importing power from outside the system to pump heat from the cooler refrigerator to the warmer room. You have done work on the system.

Notice that none of this has anything to do with evolution.

 

[ReverendDG]

What the second law of thermodynamic says is that heat (thermo-) will not spontaneously flow (-dynamics) from a cooler object to a warmer one. That's it.

Now if you unplug your refrigerator, you can demonstrate this. Heat will flow from the warmer room to the cooler refrigerator. You have made the refrigerator-room into a closed system.

If you plug the refrigerator back in, you have made the refigerator-room back into an open system, because your are importing power from outside the system to pump heat from the cooler refrigerator to the warmer room. You have done work on the system.

Notice that none of this has anything to do with evolution.

thats what you get from the american education system, people with very little understanding of the fact that the second law has to do with a closed system.
i always liked the example of a bathtub of water in a locked room, the heat from the water moves to the colder air until the heat evens out between the two.

 

[AV1611VET]

Now if you unplug your refrigerator, you can demonstrate this. Heat will flow from the warmer room to the cooler refrigerator. You have made the refrigerator-room into a closed system.

In Genesis 1, the refrigerator (earth) was plugged into another power Source than the sun.

When the Fall occurred, the refrigerator was unplugged from this divine Socket, and plugged into a secondary socket (the sun).

Thus, the refrigerator room (solar system) went from an open system to a closed system.

 

[azmurath]

In Genesis 1, the refrigerator (earth) was plugged into another power Source than the sun.

When the Fall occurred, the refrigerator was unplugged from this divine Socket, and plugged into a secondary socket (the sun).

Thus, the refrigerator room (solar system) went from an open system to a closed system.

The solar system gets energy from the entire galaxy, not just the sun. Try again

 

[AV1611VET]

The solar system gets energy from the entire galaxy, not just the sun. Try again

Um --- I don't think this galaxy supplies enough energy to run the solar system with enough power to run the earth.

 

[azmurath]

Um --- I don't think this galaxy supplies enough energy to run the solar system with enough power to run the earth.

You would be surprised. The galaxy puts out enough energy to keep the interstellar medium above absolute freezing, that is an enormous amount of energy. Besides, the sun providing us energy makes us an OPEN system, not a closed system.

 

[AV1611VET]

Besides, the sun providing us energy makes us an OPEN system, not a closed system.

I'm not talking about just the earth being powered by an outside source (the sun).

I'm talking about the entire solar system.

Thus, the refrigerator room (solar system) went from an open system to a closed system.

 

[sbvera13]

The original article was not so lenient, making your point moot. We were talking about them, not you.

 

[azmurath]

I'm not talking about just the earth being powered by an outside source (the sun).

I'm talking about the entire solar system.

The entire solar system is not a closed system. To be a closed system, no energy could get in or out, but energy CAN get in and out, and it DOES get in and out. If no energy was coming in to the solar system, we would see no stars at night.

 

[Gracchus]

The original article was not so lenient, making your (AV1611VET) point moot. We were talking about them, not you.

Haven't you been paying attention?! It's always all about AV1611VET!

 

[azmurath]

I love how AV runs away from every thread that he is thoroughly whooped in. Big man, bravo.

Wow am I glad that I don't have to rely on him on duty. I might get killed!

 

[Biologist]

That quote isn’t from the article’s author, it’s from Dr. John Ross in Chemical and Engineering News. John Ross isn’t a creationist.

It doesn't matter who wrote the quote. The main point is the author switched from using the Second law to that null hypothesis while trying to prove that Evolution is a violation of the Second Law.

In Genesis 1, the refrigerator (earth) was plugged into another power Source than the sun.

When the Fall occurred, the refrigerator was unplugged from this divine Socket, and plugged into a secondary socket (the sun).

Thus, the refrigerator room (solar system) went from an open system to a closed system.

Even if the solar system was a closed system that still wouldn't effect the Earth from receiving energy from other parts of the solar system, for example, the sun.

 

[azmurath]

Even if the solar system was a closed system that still wouldn't effect the Earth from receiving energy from other parts of the solar system, for example, the sun.

But its not, so why even give him that glimmer of hope?

 

[sfs]

It doesn't matter who wrote the quote. The main point is the author switched from using the Second law to that null hypothesis while trying to prove that Evolution is a violation of the Second Law.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "null hypothesis" here, or in the OP. In hypothesis-testing, the null hypothesis is the default hypothesis, the one you attempt to reject based on some statistical test. That does not seem to be how you are using the term.

Also, you might note that the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to all systems, open or closed (with the possible exception of cosmologically large regions of expanding space). One particular formulation of it, in terms of the increase in entropy, only applies to closed systems.

 

[Alunyel]

Honestly, I'm not too hot on thermodynamics (See what I did there? ), but as I understand it, the 2nd law is that energy balances itself out, eventually. Whilst the first law states that the amount of energy is a constant (Which is exactly the opposite of creationism.), as that energy gets transferred into other types of energy, it eventually reaches a balanced equilibrium. Which is at a point where the energy flow can comfortably stop flowing. For example, a tank of hot water will eventually become room temperature, but until it does, it'll increase the temperature of the area around it. Whilst no energy is actually lost, it just becomes kinda... less concentrated. The heat energy stored in the tank will eventually dissipate into the surrounding system.

I really can't see how that has anything to do with small genetic mutations amounting to larger genetic mutations resulting in physical differences and the survival of the mutated genetic code and physical differences that're more suited to survive.



Without the second law, life wouldn't even be able to exist, let alone evolve. We get all of our energy from the Sun, if the second law didn't apply, then none of that energy would be transferred to Earth, meaning there'd be no available energy to support life on Earth.

The Sun wouldn't even exist without the second law, because energy wouldn't be transfered from all of those colliding hydrogen atoms, those colliding atoms wouldn't even be moving...