Could I be Catholic?

[Charlie7399]

To make things clear, I'm not currently interested in converting to Catholicism. I just wonder if I could "fit in" if I ever needed to (if I move to a place with no other suitable church, for example). So, here's my little list of heresies, and I'd like to know if they are compatible with being in communion with the Catholic Church and so forth (I'm posting this here and not on OBOB for obvious reasons):

- I don't believe in Papal Infallibility (and yes, I know what it actually means);
- I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, and I'm also uncomfortable about the Perpetual Virginity;
- I don't believe you need to confess to a priest to have your sins forgiven (but I'm not against the practice per se);
- I don't believe in annullments, and prefer the way the Orthodox (and some Protestants) deal with this issue;
- Although I don't find it ideal, I don't see any sinfulness in cohabitation;
- I don't believe it's sinful to use contraceptives;
- I don't believe the Church is infallible when declaring people to be Saints and so forth;
- I believe the Church can err (and has erred) for extended periods of time;
- I don't believe that the Catholic Church is the only (or preferential) way to salvation;
- I don't believe Apostolic Succession to be necessary for a church;
- I believe the Pope is a primus inter pares and the visible head of the Church, much like the Patriarch of Constantinople in Eastern Orthodoxy;
- I believe in the priesthood of all believers.

What I also believe is that the Roman Church was founded by the apostle Peter, and even though it has been corrupted many times in its long history, it has always been a legitimate congregation of believers. I believe it has maintained the essentials of Christian faith, but due to various circumstances new and incorrect beliefs have been constantly added throughout its history.

I'm prone to believe that I differ too much to be in communion with Catholicism, since I just said I don't believe in a few important dogmas, but I just want to be sure. Again, I'm just asking this out of curiosity, so there's no need do debate me on whether any of the beliefs mentioned are right or wrong. My position about them may also not be definitive, since I'm constantly searching for more information, so there's that.

What do you guys think?

 

[Martinius]

Other than the issues with the Marian doctrines, you would be an average Catholic. If you had been born and raised Catholic, you would fit right in. But it is unlikely that you would be considered a prime candidate for conversion. It is also unlikely that the only "suitable" church you would find in a given area would be a Catholic parish. Catholic Churches are outnumbered by Protestant churches almost everywhere, in many cases by a big margin. I am from an area with a lot of Lutherans and Catholics, but in some places they are both in the minority. At worst, you may end up with a longer drive to get to church.

NOTE: I just checked your profile and see that you are in Brazil. Not sure how extensive the Lutheran church is there, but you could have a problem, especially away from metro areas, I suspect.

 

[Charlie7399]

Thought as much. I wasn't even thinking about Brazil, to be honest. Lutheran churches are concentrated mostly in areas with German settlements (such as where I live), but if I ever moved somewhere else inside the country I'd probably find a suitable Protestant church. When I came up with this problem I was actually thinking about Western Europe, where you mostly have a) Traditional Protestants who are too liberal, b) "Modern" Protestants (i.e. Baptists) with whom I don't agree in a lot of doctrinal stuff and c) Catholics. Still not sure about what I would do in that case, but thanks for the input!

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

- I don't believe in Papal Infallibility (and yes, I know what it actually means);
- I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, and I'm also uncomfortable about the Perpetual Virginity;
- I don't believe you need to confess to a priest to have your sins forgiven (but I'm not against the practice per se);
- I don't believe in annullments, and prefer the way the Orthodox (and some Protestants) deal with this issue;
- Although I don't find it ideal, I don't see any sinfulness in cohabitation;
- I don't believe it's sinful to use contraceptives;
- I don't believe the Church is infallible when declaring people to be Saints and so forth;
- I believe the Church can err (and has erred) for extended periods of time;
- I don't believe that the Catholic Church is the only (or preferential) way to salvation;
- I don't believe Apostolic Succession to be necessary for a church;
- I believe the Pope is a primus inter pares and the visible head of the Church, much like the Patriarch of Constantinople in Eastern Orthodoxy;
- I believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Yeah, I kind of think that the nationalist riots and violence of 1848 kind of ruined the hopes of a 19th century modernism for Catholicism. It's the black mark behind the Syllabus of Errors and the First Vatican Council which is quite upsetting.
I like the high Mariology of Catholicism, I think that it can be reclaimed for the more progressive of us, however you'll find various feminists who want to do away with "All that Mary stuff".
I agree that sins don't have to be confessed to a priest in order to be forgiven, there's a Liberal Catholic Church near where I live which does the Absolution as soon as Mass begins, I like this attitude.
I don't buy much of the Church's attitude to sex. You'll find that most Catholics in the United States actually are much more progressive than the general population with regards to beliefs in gay rights and the likes. The hierarchy actually significantly misrepresents the opinion of lay Catholics in this regard.
Most Catholic theologians don't believe that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, especially since Vatican II and Karl Rahner's notion of Anonymous Christians.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Sounds to me like you'd fit in a bit better with us

 

[Charlie7399]

Sounds to me like you'd fit in a bit better with us

Doctrinally speaking I agree. Much of what I don't like in Catholicism is absent in Orthodoxy, and I can see myself agreeing with you in a lot of things. There was quite a bit of dialogue between Lutherans and the Patriarch of Constantinople during the 16th century, actually, even though it wasn't fruitful. Don't think I would get used to having the whole liturgy chanted, though!

 

[Charlie7399]

Yeah, I kind of think that the nationalist riots and violence of 1848 kind of ruined the hopes of a 19th century modernism for Catholicism. It's the black mark behind the Syllabus of Errors and the First Vatican Council which is quite upsetting.
I like the high Mariology of Catholicism, I think that it can be reclaimed for the more progressive of us, however you'll find various feminists who want to do away with "All that Mary stuff".
I agree that sins don't have to be confessed to a priest in order to be forgiven, there's a Liberal Catholic Church near where I live which does the Absolution as soon as Mass begins, I like this attitude.
I don't buy much of the Church's attitude to sex. You'll find that most Catholics in the United States actually are much more progressive than the general population with regards to beliefs in gay rights and the likes. The hierarchy actually significantly misrepresents the opinion of lay Catholics in this regard.
Most Catholic theologians don't believe that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, especially since Vatican II and Karl Rahner's notion of Anonymous Christians.

It seems to me that some of the beliefs I expressed are actually quite common in the pews. That's not very relevant to what I'm after here, but it is interesting.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

It seems to me that some of the beliefs I expressed are actually quite common in the pews. That's not very relevant to what I'm after here, but it is interesting.

Fair enough.

I believe it has maintained the essentials of Christian faith, but due to various circumstances new and incorrect beliefs have been constantly added throughout its history.

This would probably hinder you if you wanted to attend a Catholic church. The Catholic religion is embedded in history and this notion of adding new beliefs or redefining old ones is in many ways how Catholicism works.

 

[Charlie7399]

Fair enough.

It's quite late and I might be overthinking, but just to make sure, I didn't mean to offend you or anything with my post, just wanted to comment that I find it quite interesting

This would probably hinder you if you wanted to attend a Catholic church. The Catholic religion is embedded in history and this notion of adding new beliefs or redefining old ones is in many ways how Catholicism works.

I see the problem there, which is why I didn't have high hopes of a positive answer in the first place. It just doesn't fit into my mindset, not currently anyway. Let's hope I never have to move to a place where this becomes an issue.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Doctrinally speaking I agree. Much of what I don't like in Catholicism is absent in Orthodoxy, and I can see myself agreeing with you in a lot of things. There was quite a bit of dialogue between Lutherans and the Patriarch of Constantinople during the 16th century, actually, even though it wasn't fruitful. Don't think I would get used to having the whole liturgy chanted, though!

That does take some getting used to. I am a convert myself so trust me I know, but what I found most helpful was to get a book of the Divine Liturgy (though you could just find the text on the internet) and read it a few times. That and if you ever considered it, find a parish where the service is in, and both the priest and the deacon speak the same language as you.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I see the problem there, which is why I didn't have high hopes of a positive answer in the first place. It just doesn't fit into my mindset, not currently anyway. Let's hope I never have to move to a place where this becomes an issue.

Well, given that the whole point of attending Mass is to do Catholicism and become Catholic in life it seems that yes, this attitude towards attending a worship service that you seem to have may be incompatible with what's actually going on in churches... Albeit, if you attended my church I would be happy you visited and would hope that you enjoyed it in your way.

 

[Charlie7399]

That does take some getting used to. I am a convert myself so trust me I know, but what I found most helpful was to get a book of the Divine Liturgy (though you could just find the text on the internet) and read it a few times. That and if you ever considered it, find a parish where the service is in, and both the priest and the deacon speak the same language as you.

I'll keep that in mind, might be useful in the future. Currently, though, there's no Orthodox church less than 1h30min from me. They aren't common at all here in Brazil.

 

[Charlie7399]

Well, given that the whole point of attending Mass is to do Catholicism and become Catholic in life it seems that yes, this attitude towards attending a worship service that you seem to have may be incompatible with what's actually going on in churches... Albeit, if you attended my church I would be happy you visited and would hope that you enjoyed it in your way.

I understand that. The point of my post is very theoretical: I just wanted to know how well I would fit if I had problems with all options available. Thanks for the input!

 

[Aldaelen]

Have you ever looked into Anglicanism? The episcopal church takes up most of what you believe

 

[Charlie7399]

Have you ever looked into Anglicanism? The episcopal church takes up most of what you believe

I have no problems at all with traditional Anglicanism. I think I'd fit in quite seamlessly if I ever needed to. The Episcopal Church is much too liberal for me, but I don't think I would have any problem with churches if I ever moved to the US.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I have no problems at all with traditional Anglicanism. I think I'd fit in quite seamlessly if I ever needed to. The Episcopal Church is much too liberal for me, but I don't think I would have any problem with churches if I ever moved to the US.

Oh if you're not a liberal and wanted to attend a more conservative Catholic Church then you'd probably find quite a few problems. Try asking your question at the OBOB subforum and see what sort of answer you'd get there.

 

[Charlie7399]

Oh if you're not a liberal and wanted to attend a more conservative Catholic Church then you'd probably find quite a few problems. Try asking your question at the OBOB subforum and see what sort of answer you'd get there.

I don't think even the most liberal Roman Catholic parish is as liberal as the Episcopalians have been lately. I'd say I'm more of a moderate than anything else. On the other hand, I already know how things usually go on OBOB. They'd probably want to make a barbecue out of me or something!

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I don't think even the most liberal Roman Catholic parish is as liberal as the Episcopalians have been lately. I'd say I'm more of a moderate than anything else. On the other hand, I already know how things usually go on OBOB. They'd probably want to make a barbecue out of me or something!

I want to claim to be able to out-liberal them but then I think of Spong...

 

[Charlie7399]

I want to claim to be able to out-liberal them but then I think of Spong...

Pretty much.

 

[Rhamiel]

I believe in the priesthood of all believers

I believe the Church can err (and has erred) for extended periods of time;

those are the only things on your list that are not problematic

it sounds like you do not believe in some major teachings of the Church