Convert me.

[lucaspa]

I came across this this morning and I would like to help by saying this, the only logical reason for life is God. Think way back to like the beginnings of the universe there was nothing. What created the rocks that supposedly caused "The Big Bang"? They didn't just show up. Or what created the air we are breathing? Something more powerful had to create the first thing living or non-living.

FYI, you can propose God as the cause of the Big Bang. However, the Big Bang did not involve "rocks". Instead, at the Big Bang spacetime (the 3 dimensions of space and time) appeared. At the Big Bang, the universe was so hot that there was no matter, just energy. That's how all the "matter" could fit in a space smaller than an atom. Energy can be that dense, but matter cannot. Several minutes after the Big Bang, the expansion of the universe in spacetime had cooled the universe such that matter could exist. Remember, E=mc^2. So there was a phase change and matter "condensed" out of the energy. The analogy is steam condensing to liquid water as the steam cools.

After that, everything that happens is due to seconary causes of God -- what science calls "natural". God doesn't have to perform miracles to get the air we breathe or the first cell.

So the only answer is there is a self-existent God.

That is not the only possible answer. I suggest you check out my thread of First Cause:
http://christianforums.com/t43923

There that knocks Athiesim and Agnosticism out of the way

Agnosticism isn't a faith. Atheism is a rational faith that cannot be knocked out by science. Science is agnostic.

What you really need to do to start your relationship with him is come to him and just tell him you want a relationship with him and pray for him to guide you.

And that is how most former atheists have found God.

 

[TheWorriedOne]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say is a God had to create the first thing living or non living energy or anything doesn't come from absolutely nowhere the only assumption you must really make is God is self-existent. I know there are all these other science answers out there but I mean really think about it look around you. The universe is filled with Galaxies, stars, and other planets. I'm not trying to knock "The Big Bang Theory" God could have certainly made the Earth like that if he wanted to. Think about the way things are you're clearly here for a reason if you ask me this all couldn't have happened by chance. There's some reason you're on this forum. Regardless of what you think of all of the previous here's a fact, many prophecies in the Bible have come true. That can't be a
coincidence and there's no denying that. Here are some really good verses.
Proverbs 3:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
[bless and do not curse]5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]and he will make your paths straight.[a]
John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
[bless and do not curse]16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say is a God had to create the first thing living or non living energy or anything doesn't come from absolutely nowhere the only assumption you must really make is God is self-existent. I know there are all these other science answers out there but I mean really think about it look around you. The universe is filled with Galaxies, stars, and other planets. I'm not trying to knock "The Big Bang Theory" God could have certainly made the Earth like that if he wanted to. Think about the way things are you're clearly here for a reason if you ask me this all couldn't have happened by chance. There's some reason you're on this forum. Regardless of what you think of all of the previous here's a fact, many prophecies in the Bible have come true. That can't be a
coincidence and there's no denying that. Here are some really good verses.
Proverbs 3:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
[bless and do not curse]5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]and he will make your paths straight.[a]
John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
[bless and do not curse]16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Good point worried one, and I would also like to add that Information is also very important as from all of our experience complex informations such as languages have only been shown to have arisen from mind. DNA is a language and it is the language of God. Genesis even says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word is God.

If you saw a writing on the sand at the beach that said susy loves rob, no common sense human being would think that the waves caused that writing to happen. Its a thought that originated from a mind.

Whats even crazier is how Consciousness has to do with quantum mechanics.





by physicist Richard Conn Henry:

“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’”
…
The 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics solved the problem of the Universe’s nature. Bright physicists were again led to believe the unbelievable — this time, that the Universe is mental.
…
According to Sir James Jeans: “the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter…we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter.”
….
The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual.
Richard Conn Henry
The Mental Universe: Nature Volume 436

Whats amazing is that this is what convinced Conn Henry to abondon atheism.
To be fair, Henry is NOT an ID proponent, but some of his further comments in connection with his Nature essay are astonishing. Is Henry arguing that one of the main pillars of atheism has been taken away by quantum mechanics? Is he saying that quantum mechanics has shown that there are no mind-independent realities, therefore the cure for atheism (to paraphrase Newton) has been found?

Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality….
Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the illusion of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism.
Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist
Journal of Scientific Exploration Issue 21-3


Whats amazing is that Conn Henry was a staunch atheist who through this discovery alone left atheism and he was quoted as saying that a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative.

Its amzing stuff.

Uncommon Descent | The Quantum Enigma of Consciousness and the Identity of the Designer


Folks there is a poster on the uncommon descent blog called bornagain777, and he has some awesome information on his blog about all this stuff, but it seems like his blog is down right now. Great Christian poster.



​

​

 

[razeontherock]

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity

No, they actually don't. Anyone making any such claim is immediately suspect, from where I stand.

, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

I suggest forgetting all about such notions. The word "religion" is loaded for most people. If you examine what you mean by it, no doubt you will see all sorts of things that have no bearing on anything good.

2. God is all-powerful, yes?

No. Next question? Seriously, the concept is MOST Powerful. As in, more Powerful than anyone / anything else.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

I can't tell if this is a sincere question, but if it is it is seriously mis-guided. The 2 are not in opposition. The "besting" is to be done by US.

4. Who created the devil?

What God created was GOOD. So what you are looking at, is an ominous warning ...

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying.

YES. Sort of. You have revealed your heart, to the Lord, and exposed error therein.

If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not.

NO! In your mind, you have removed personal responsibility. That's always a mistake!

So what is the point in praying?

If you take just what has been said in this post on the point of prayer, you will have much understanding about prayer, that even many devout believers do not have. Over and over the Scriptures show us this very point you're asking. Here is the key:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

1. How will reading the bible help me know which version of Christianity to join?

The one the Bible speaks of.

2. You actually didn't answer the question...you just told me to be careful about questioning God. If he is what people say he is, shouldn't he be able to answer all my questions and more? Where is the harm in questioning something if that something can prove to be true? Otherwise, we promote a culture of fear and ignorance.

I have done this for at least 30 years, and He hasn't struck me dead with lightning yet

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Hey all, I've come here with an open-mind and a few questions. If anyone can answer them satisfactorily, I would have no reason not to be converted.

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

2. God is all-powerful, yes? He is said to be the creator of everything in the universe. So, simple question, could God (the Christian one) create a rock that was so heavy, even he could not move it?

If he were all powerful, he could lift it, but then he wouldn't be making a rock he can't lift. If he couldn't make a rock he can't lift, he couldn't be all powerful...and wouldn't be a god.

If he couldn't lift the rock...then he's not all powerful either.

It seems to me, either way he couldn't be all-powerful and exist as people say he does.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

4. Who created God? Who created God's creator, and so forth? Who created the devil?

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying. If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not. So what is the point in praying?

Feel free to answer any number of questions you want, they are all equally valid questions holding me back from being Christian.

1. any that adhere to the Creeds.

2. a silly argument, the atheist equivalent to the abuse of Pascals wager among some Christians.

3. Where does the assumption come that he can't?

4. uncaused causer....see St. Thomas' "proofs".

5. guidance, communion, assistance, though I suppose it depends on ones view on will and determination.

 

[Publius]

Hey all, I've come here with an open-mind and a few questions. If anyone can answer them satisfactorily, I would have no reason not to be converted.

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

2. God is all-powerful, yes? He is said to be the creator of everything in the universe. So, simple question, could God (the Christian one) create a rock that was so heavy, even he could not move it?

If he were all powerful, he could lift it, but then he wouldn't be making a rock he can't lift. If he couldn't make a rock he can't lift, he couldn't be all powerful...and wouldn't be a god.

If he couldn't lift the rock...then he's not all powerful either.

It seems to me, either way he couldn't be all-powerful and exist as people say he does.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

4. Who created God? Who created God's creator, and so forth? Who created the devil?

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying. If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not. So what is the point in praying?

Feel free to answer any number of questions you want, they are all equally valid questions holding me back from being Christian.

Sorry. I can't convert you. Nobody here can convert you. You can't decide to convert.

Only the Holy Spirit can convert you. And when He does, no amount of silly "gotcha" questions will stop you.

 

[secondtimearound]

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

"I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me." - Proverbs 8:17

"But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul." Duetoronomy 4:29

"Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart" Jerimiah 29

The point of these quotes is simply to illustrate that God, if sought after as not to temp Him but with honesty and sincerity, will reveal Himself to you. He will. That is how I came to belief. Also, Jesus claimed to be the only way to the Father, so if you have an experience that leaves you believing Jesus is who he claimed to be, than it is easy to put the other religions aside.

2. God is all-powerful, yes? He is said to be the creator of everything in the universe. So, simple question, could God (the Christian one) create a rock that was so heavy, even he could not move it?

If he were all powerful, he could lift it, but then he wouldn't be making a rock he can't lift. If he couldn't make a rock he can't lift, he couldn't be all powerful...and wouldn't be a god.

If he couldn't lift the rock...then he's not all powerful either.

It seems to me, either way he couldn't be all-powerful and exist as people say he does.

God cannot do that which is logically impossible. Omnipotence is not defined as the ability to do that which is logically absurd. This is not a task, it is simply a self contridictory asembly of words like a married bachelor and the task itself does not exist.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

This is a theological misunderstanding. As Christians we believe God WILL bring about the end of sin and Satan.

4. Who created God? Who created God's creator, and so forth? Who created the devil?

God is uncreated. Much like the atheist used to hold to the belief that the universe is eternal (and some still do), we have always believed God to be eternal. Second part, everything outside of God, was created by God. Remember Satan was not created evil, he was a renagade angel.

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying. If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not. So what is the point in praying?

Developing a personal relationship with God.

Feel free to answer any number of questions you want, they are all equally valid questions holding me back from being Christian.

If you are true in your sincerity, than the answer to your first question should suffice.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Hey all, I've come here with an open-mind and a few questions. If anyone can answer them satisfactorily, I would have no reason not to be converted.

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

2. God is all-powerful, yes? He is said to be the creator of everything in the universe. So, simple question, could God (the Christian one) create a rock that was so heavy, even he could not move it?

If he were all powerful, he could lift it, but then he wouldn't be making a rock he can't lift. If he couldn't make a rock he can't lift, he couldn't be all powerful...and wouldn't be a god.

If he couldn't lift the rock...then he's not all powerful either.

It seems to me, either way he couldn't be all-powerful and exist as people say he does.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

4. Who created God? Who created God's creator, and so forth? Who created the devil?

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying. If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not. So what is the point in praying?

Feel free to answer any number of questions you want, they are all equally valid questions holding me back from being Christian.

These are not the questions of someone that wants to convert. These are philosophically childish questions from atheist crackerjack box websites that have been answered a million times over. This set of questions should be the poster child of the vaunted intellect of atheism.

Prayer is about communing with the Lord not getting everything you want.
IF you truely want to pray here is an example.

Lord Jesus Christ, My Savior, if it is in your will to grant my prayer please do so, but if it not in your will I accept it because I am but a finite being. I cant see your whole purpose now but I trust in your infinite love for me and your wisdom to set me on the best path.

In the Lords Name we pray
Amen

 

[Publius]

These are not the questions of someone that wants to convert. These are philosophically childish questions from atheist crackerjack box websites that have been answered a million times over. This set of questions should be the poster child of the vaunted intellect of atheism.

Agreed. Someone interested in converting (assuming he had any ability to convert) would ask "what must I do to be saved", not a series of nonsensical questions.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Agreed. Someone interested in converting (assuming he had any ability to convert) would ask "what must I do to be saved", not a series of nonsensical questions.

Yes Publius, Its amazing that they go to all that trouble finding these silly questions to ask to defend their senseless and meaningless worldview.
If only they would give the Lord a chance.

 

[lucaspa]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say is a God had to create the first thing living or non living energy or anything doesn't come from absolutely nowhere the only assumption you must really make is God is self-existent. ... Think about the way things are you're clearly here for a reason if you ask me this all couldn't have happened by chance.

There is a difference between the Christian belief and "a God had to create", thus saying there is absolutely no other way to get a universe than to have God create it. There are other entities hypothesized to be creator of the universe. NONE of them are "chance". I understand when you say "if you ask me" and you are giving your personal opinion. That's fine. The problem comes when you tell people "a God had to create".

There's some reason you're on this forum. Regardless of what you think of all of the previous here's a fact, many prophecies in the Bible have come true. That can't be a
coincidence and there's no denying that.

Now you are making apologetics argument. What Christians can say, and many do -- including me -- is that no, that the "prophecies" came true is not a coincidence. But the reason is that the "prophecies" were written AFTER the event.

Proverbs 3:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Part of this is about what we can legitimately say to non-Christians without saying things that are not true. Part of trusting in the Lord is trusting that God really is the Creator. Thus, what we learn from science we are ultimately learning from God.

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This is indeed a foundational belief of Christianity. But I haven't argued against that, have I?

Juvenissum stated that all Christian denominations believe that Jesus is the only way to get eternal life. That isn't what the verse states. It says belief in Jesus is a way to have eternal life. There are Christian denominations -- and the UMC is one -- who do not believe that belief in Jesus is the only way. After all, Moses, David, Ruth, etc. never believed in Jesus, did they? Should we deny that those people perished and did not have eternal life?

I will leave you with something St. Augustine wrote, way back in the 400s AD:

"Even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to be certain from reason and experience. Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]"
" Augustine, On the Literal Meaning of Genesis, Book 1, Chapter 19.
1 Timothy 1:7 "Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "

 

[TheWorriedOne]

Those were people in The Old Testament times and this is how they were saved by God
Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
It was the belief a Messiah; the Son of God was coming to save us then once Jesus came he became the "new" way of entering Heaven and the Bible says so.
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
See? John 3:16 may not say its the only way but that verse was said by Jesus himself and he said he was the only way to God the Father.

 

[kimmyh51]

LOL I would say the one overwhelming reason to become a christian, is so you can put those questions to 'the big man himself'. Especially the one about the rock

I have a pile of questions for god, such as:
Isnt omnipotence tiring,
Dont you ever wish for someone who is on your own level intellectually (or is that what the holy spirit and jesus do)
How did you come up with the man and woman thing when the holy trinity are all male?
Tell me honestly - some of those really bizzare looking fish they find deep in the ocean, and other stuff like that, - how'd you come up with them? was it like...hey imagine if there was a....?
How does the whole no pain and tears thing work, how will we go through eternity without getting bored, lazy or complacent? or will all those parts of us be gone when we get to heaven

What did you DO for all tht time before us? (and how much time is that if there is no beginning and end - and if there is a beginning, what was it and how did you get here)

If you are always there for us, what about if we 'want to be alone' are you still there then? Or do you go off somewhere and not be there?

Or when we think we want to be alone does that actually mean we want to be alone with you?


OH and finally to the starter of this thread....thanks a lot! now I am going to sit here and try and figure out how god might make the rock you mention..

I imagine he has an answer to that though I dont know what it is. If you check
Luke 20:20-26 you can see how Jesus answers another trick question

 

[Taleswapper]

I think this may have been a troll. Even as an atheist, these questions are really facile and seem to be set up to be shot down. If it's not a troll, then it's probably one of their first forays into debate on this topic. Let me try and play devil's advocate. Double-pun definitely intended.

1. Every religion claims to be the one true religion, even between denominations of Christianity, so how, out of those teeming masses, do I know which one is the right religion?

Same reason you know anything else from any other bundle of information. How do you know which flavor of Kool-aid is the best? You have to try them all and decide for yourself. If everyone could know for certain which religion was correct, it wouldn't be a religion.

2. God is all-powerful, yes? He is said to be the creator of everything in the universe. So, simple question, could God (the Christian one) create a rock that was so heavy, even he could not move it?

This is the question that makes me suspect you're looking for a rise rather than a debate. The Bible refers to God as almighty, so let's assume for the sake of argument that he is omnipotent. That means he can create anything he likes, including a rock so large he can't lift it. However such a thing couldn't exist in our universe because it would have to be of infinite size, and the Universe is not of infinite size. So he would have to create a new reality where such a thing could exist, whereupon the question becomes pointless.

3. Why cannot God best the devil, especially if God is all powerful?

God has bested the devil, the conflict between God and Satan is mostly damage control, trying to recover the souls now endangered by the actions of Satan. God cannot simply claim souls because he can't alter man's free will, hence the reason most will go to Hell.
If you think that's a victory for Satan, then so be it, but Satan, according to the New Testament, will be destroyed at the right time.

4. Who created God? Who created God's creator, and so forth? Who created the devil?

If you don't believe in God, you know this question can be answered by just saying God doesn't require a creator.
God created an angel who later turned upon him and became the devil.

5. What is the point of prayer? God has a plan, yes? So if you pray for something not in the plan, you wouldn't get it anyway and there's no point praying. If you pray for something in the plan, you would get it whether you prayed or not. So what is the point in praying?

The question presumes that prayer is always done to ask for something. Prayer is an act of communication with God. People pray just to talk, it's not about asking for good things to happen in your life, although in modern society that seems to be the way people think of it. To pray for something specific is to be in solidarity with God. His plan may or may not include what you want, and may or may not include your asking for it, but that's not the point. The point is to talk to him.

I still think you're not being entirely sincere with these questions. For what it's worth, I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.

 

[TheWorriedOne]

I think you may be right Taleswapper. But I'm not gonna lie it depresses me you're an Athiest.:/ I'm not trying to offend you. Just I wish everyone believed in God. I'll pray for you though. If you have any questions about God feel free to message me I'd be happy to try to help you.

 

[Taleswapper]

I think you may be right Taleswapper. But I'm not gonna lie it depresses me you're an Athiest.:/ I'm not trying to offend you. Just I wish everyone believed in God. I'll pray for you though. If you have any questions about God feel free to message me I'd be happy to try to help you.

No offense taken. I appreciate the sentiment. I'm certainly open-minded, though, maybe I should start a convert-me thread. =P
I don't know that I have questions about God; I spent a long time as a Christian. I'll hold you to that offer, though.

 

[razeontherock]

Hi Taleswapper! Somewhere I have a thread on professing former Christians, (PFC) and I've got to tell you, you break the mold of them that I've encountered on CF so far. Your answers are sensible, you attitude is good, but the distinguishing factor is you might actually understand the Bible w/o having to twist it horribly into something it's not.

While you (as an atheist) aren't supposed to be posting in this sub-forum unless it's a thread you start, just next door there's a sub-forum where you're entirely welcome,a nd that's where my thread is:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7621765/

Heh. That got closed. I forgot that, and i forgot why. You can still read the OP and share your thoughts though

Here's another:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7610478/

 

[lucaspa]

I think this may have been a troll. Even as an atheist, these questions are really facile and seem to be set up to be shot down. If it's not a troll, then it's probably one of their first forays into debate on this topic. ...I still think you're not being entirely sincere with these questions. For what it's worth, I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.

It's nice to be reminded that there are atheists capable of critical thinking. I like your response to the question of how we "know" Christianity is the "right" religion:
"Same reason you know anything else from any other bundle of information. How do you know which flavor of Kool-aid is the best? You have to try them all and decide for yourself. If everyone could know for certain which religion was correct, it wouldn't be a religion."

I would add that this also applies to atheism. You try and decide for yourself, and since you don't know for certain, it also puts atheism into the category of "religion" or "faith".

Perhaps you can help me out a bit: why do so many atheists seem to want to be converted? Aren't they happy with their choice of atheism? Thanks.

 

[lucaspa]

Those were people in The Old Testament times and this is how they were saved by God
Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith.

Faith is not the same thing as belief in Jesus. As you pointed out, Abraham didn't have faith in Jesus. He had faith in God. So right there you undercut the argument that you can only be saved by faith in Jesus. Also, you have Abraham saved retroactively and forgiven retroactively by Jesus' death. What happened to him all those years between his death and Jesus'? Was Abraham in some kind of limbo in terms of forgiveness? Was God just thinking about forgiving Abraham during all that time?

You must realize that NT writers are going to disagree with how things operated during the time of the OT. So, yes, the writer of Hebrews (who, after all, is writing to those Jews that did not accept Jesus as Messiah), is going to say "The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves. The sacrifices under that system were repeated again and again, year after year, but they were never able to provide perfect cleansing for those who came to worship." However, that would make God a liar because God told the Hebrews in the Torah that the animal sacrifices did provide a cleansing. It's just that, of course, people would sin again and require a new animal sacrifice. Remember Genesis 4: God was happy with the sacrifice of Abel.

So, for many Christians -- including the denomination I belong to -- God changed the rules when Jesus introduced a new covenant. People were saved under the old convenant. Now they are saved under the new. As you said, "This is progressive revelation." What you want to say is "Judgement is mine, says the Lord." The basis for that judgement changes thru time. As you said, people before Moses and the Torah were not judged on the Law. They were not saved by Jesus' death. From the Torah to Jesus' death God judged on obedience to the Law. But even here, unless you are willing to arbitrarily condemn most of the human race because they were not Jewish, then God gets to allocate salvation as He sees fit, not on the basis of Jesus' death.

With Jesus, we get a new method for God to try to reconcile Himself to humans. However, many Christians object to the idea of turning this into an exclusive method and restricting God's ability to give salvation to anyone He chooses to.

It was the belief a Messiah; the Son of God was coming to save us then once Jesus came he became the "new" way of entering Heaven and the Bible says so.
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
See? John 3:16 may not say its the only way but that verse was said by Jesus himself and he said he was the only way to God the Father.

You have the wrong verse: John 3:16 says: ""For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

That does not exclude eternal life to those who do not, just that those who do will have it.

You are quoting John 14:6. But you need to put that into context. If you go back to the start of the conversation, at verse 3, you find:
"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."

So, is Jesus trying to describe an exclusive belief so that only those who believe in Jesus can believe in God? Remember what you said about Abraham. Abraham did come to God through Jesus, did he? He did not know about Jesus.

It makes more sense to many Christians, including me, to look at this as an organizational chart. In my university, if I write a memo to the President, it goes thru the Dean. The Dean sees it before the President does, even if no one tells me this is the case. Jesus is saying much the same thing: whether Abraham knew it or not, Jesus was in the loop and Abraham was going to the Father thru him.

I suggest Harvey Cox's book Many Mansions for a much more detailed and in depth explanation of this view within Christianity.

 

[TheWorriedOne]

I'm not trying to be rude or anything but there weretwo ways to be saved the Old testament way "The Old covenant" and the New Testament way "the New covenant.". In the Old testament God says he would send a Messiah to pay for the sins of the world. This is why there were animal sacrifices in the Old Testament to pay for sin. Believing God would/ was going to send a Messiah got you saved you didn't have to know exactly who it was otherwise God would have explicitly said Jesus Christ was the Messiah. God sent Jesus which became the new way to be saved because the Messiah had came and then the Bible said, in the New Testament, New Testament times the verse John 3:16. When Jesus said no one comes to the Father "God" he meant many things. Yes it was a "link" to the Father. But it also means there is no way to get to God the Father without Jesus. Buddah isn't going to get me to the Father. There is no way to connect with God without Jesus. Therefore it is impossible to be saved without him. It's also impossible to be saved without Jesus because we are under the New Covenant in which Jesus paid for our sins. No other "God" or person paid for our sins so Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Here's an answer from gotquestions.com Question: "Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?"

Answer: "I'm basically a good person, so I'll go to heaven." "OK, so I do some bad things, but I do more good things, so I'll go to heaven." "God won't send me to hell just because I don't live by the Bible. Times have changed!" "Only really bad people like child molesters and murderers go to hell."

These are all common rationalizations, but the truth is that they are all lies. Satan, the ruler of the world, plants these thoughts in our heads. He, and anyone who follows his ways, is an enemy of God (1Peter 5:8). Satan is a deceiver and often disguises himself as someone good (2 Corinthians 11:14), but he has control over all the minds that do not belong to God. "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

It is a lie to believe that God doesn't care about small sins or that hell is reserved for "bad people." All sin separates us from God, even a “little white lie.” Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23). Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it" (Matthew 7:13). Even if everyone else is living a life of sin in a culture where trusting in God is not popular, God will not excuse it. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:1-2).

When God created the world, it was perfect and good. Then he made Adam and Eve and gave them their own free will, so they would have a choice whether to follow and obey God. But they were tempted by Satan to disobey God, and they sinned. This separated them (and everyone that came after them, including us) from being able to have a close relationship with God. He is perfect and holy and must judge sin. As sinners, we couldn't reconcile ourselves to God on our own. So God made a way that we could be united with Him in heaven. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Jesus was born to die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we only believe.

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (John 17:3). Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference" (Romans 3:22). The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God become man (John 1:1; 14) – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).