Contemplative Prayer Question

[PsaltiChrysostom]

The Philokalia is probably the deepest material on this matter. Every time I try, I don't get very far. It doesn't make much sense to me other than it is obviously not God's will that I try to understand something so deep. It's like I'm trying to read rocket science and I retain no information at all, even though the words couldn't be simpler English.

Even Orthodox approach the Philokalia with caution and normally under the guidance of a spiritual father. Even after being Orthodox for over 20 years, I would be hesitant to dive into that. If you are interested in a couple of good "starter" books, try "Beginning to Pray" by Anthony Bloom and "Way of the Pilgrim".

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Even Orthodox approach the Philokalia with caution and normally under the guidance of a spiritual father. Even after being Orthodox for over 20 years, I would be hesitant to dive into that. If you are interested in a couple of good "starter" books, try "Beginning to Pray" by Anthony Bloom and "Way of the Pilgrim".

The Way of a Pilgrim and The Pilgrim Continues His Way are some of my favorite reading ever. That's actually what inspired me to even attempt the Philokalia. I was previously Orthodox before some things happened in my personal life and I felt I answered a long term calling to Catholicism, but I'm strongly considering reconciling with Orthodoxy. That's another topic though.

 

[mourningdove~]

Yet God wills His own to grow, to mature, to advance toward His desire and intention for all of Creation to be in union - union! - with Him who IS - supernatural and spiritual.

That ^ is what I never heard about in Protestantism. Union with God.
But then, I also didn't hear about 'deification' either ...

I can't help but think how wonderful it could be, to learn these spiritual lessons when one is still young.
I suppose it could be totally life-changing ...

 

[fide]

That ^ is what I never heard about in Protestantism. Union with God.
But then, I also didn't hear about 'deification' either ...

I can't help but think how wonderful it could be, to learn these spiritual lessons when one is still young.
I suppose it could be totally life-changing ...

The LINK is to a beautiful sermon from a Russian Orthodox Church in Canada that describes is some ways the interior "vision"- or faith - and hope in the Faithful that drives the soul toward deification - or theosis. Both terms can be found occasionally in the Roman Catholic Church, but more likely among the Eastern Orthodox churches in union with Rome. The term is not in the sermon, but the hope for it is.

A Roman Catholic author Fr. John G. Arintero, O.P. wrote an excellent book (in 2 volumes) The Mystical Evolution in the Development and Vitality of the Church. His book embraces the term, and the realitiy, of deification. Tan Books publishes vol. 2 in e-book format. Amazon seems to carry it also - strange that Tan doesn't seem to offer vol. 1 anymore....

Regarding a regretful glance at one's past - who knows where he/she'd be if then and if that other turn had been different. I know I am very grateful for where I am now - I know how badly things could and might have turned out if....

 

[joymercy]

Even Orthodox approach the Philokalia with caution and normally under the guidance of a spiritual father. Even after being Orthodox for over 20 years, I would be hesitant to dive into that. If you are interested in a couple of good "starter" books, try "Beginning to Pray" by Anthony Bloom and "Way of the Pilgrim".

Thank you for the suggestions.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Is it normal, when one begins studying contemplative prayer ...
to find the reading material on this subject (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, etc.) to be 'intellectually' challenging?

I've been reading some books on contemplative prayer by Fr. Donald Haggerty.
I'm about to tackle "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
I'm an avid spiritual reader, but these books seem to go very spiritually 'deep'.
I find I need to take them slowly and intently, to grasp what I'm reading.

I'm very slowly 'getting it' ... but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps what is most needed when reading these kinds of books is for God to 'enlighten' our minds so as to be able to grasp what is being taught?

I definitely believe there is 'a call' one experiences to contemplative prayer. It is something God does ... initiates. A spiritual hunger He gives us.
So as we learn about it, is the journey into contemplative prayer then more 'spiritual' than 'intellectual' learning?

... Is that why these books seem so challenging to read?
(Or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That's possible, too! lol)

It’s OK to go slow in reading and assimilating these things. Sometimes a paragraph can be profound and need a day to work through.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It’s OK to go slow in reading and assimilating these things. Sometimes a paragraph can be profound and need a day to work through.

That is certainly true. A slow read sometimes makes a good meditation in itself.

 

[mourningdove~]

Growing in faith, and hope, and love - in the Interior Life of Prayer - is primary, foundational, essential. Until we recognize the self-love in us, and repent, purge and be purified in the fires of His grace, our busyness in religious works can be (as Paul noted above) fruitless.
After three years or so of intense formation with the Master, still the Apostles were not ready for the apostolate:

@fide

Can I ask you a question?

Currently, I find myself focused on the study of the Interior Life of Prayer (contemplative prayer).
Over the past year+, I've found several different resources online (Catholic ministries) that talk and teach about these things.
(I continue in "The Ordinary Path to Holiness" book, too.)
In a rather interesting way, all these resources presently seem to be 'working together', to help me understand and learn.

All these resources seem to have one thing in common: Carmelite spirituality.

Now here comes my question, and I will try to ask it gingerly, so as not to offend anyone.

As a revert, I'm in a kind of interesting position at this time of the Synod of Synodality.
It is interesting to observe all the different responses within Catholicism towards it.
There is so much discussion in the news. So many headlines.
And there are those both strongly for and against it, and the things the pope is doing.

Many are quite vocal with their opinions.
And then there are those who do not appear to be saying a word about any of it, as if it isn't even happening!
It is those who practice the (Carmelite) contemplative prayer way of life.
It is so obvious to me, their silence.

I 'think' I understand what is going on, but I'd like to hear from you as to why you think, or know, that these contemplative types are not outwardly discussing the Synod situation, the pope's actions, etc.?

(I notice they also don't discuss current world events, things of that sort, either. I get the strong impression that none of them watch much tv or even the news!)

I'm not in a position to ask any of these persons about this.
But since you appeqr to be walking this path, I thought I'd ask you.

 

[fide]

@fide

Can I ask you a question?

Currently, I find myself focused on the study of the Interior Life of Prayer (contemplative prayer).
Over the past year+, I've found several different resources online (Catholic ministries) that talk and teach about these things.
(I continue in "The Ordinary Path to Holiness" book, too.)
In a rather interesting way, all these resources presently seem to be 'working together', to help me understand and learn.

All these resources seem to have one thing in common: Carmelite spirituality.

Now here comes my question, and I will try to ask it gingerly, so as not to offend anyone.

As a revert, I'm in a kind of interesting position at this time of the Synod of Synodality.
It is interesting to observe all the different responses within Catholicism towards it.
There is so much discussion in the news. So many headlines.
And there are those both strongly for and against it, and the things the pope is doing.

Many are quite vocal with their opinions.
And then there are those who do not appear to be saying a word about any of it, as if it isn't even happening!
It is those who practice the (Carmelite) contemplative prayer way of life.
It is so obvious to me, their silence.

I 'think' I understand what is going on, but I'd like to hear from you as to why you think, or know, that these contemplative types are not outwardly discussing the Synod situation, the pope's actions, etc.?

(I notice they also don't discuss current world events, things of that sort, either. I get the strong impression that none of them watch much tv or even the news!)

I'm not in a position to ask any of these persons about this.
But since you appeqr to be walking this path, I thought I'd ask you.

That is a question having a very complicated answer! Persons showing "zero" involvement in "synodality" in the Church today can have radically different reasons for their (apparent) lack of interest; persons showing great interest similarly can be on a wide spectrum of motivations and explanations.

A contemplative person, for example, can keep relatively silent on the matter because he sees it as a problem of ideology rooted in a lack of supernatural faith - that is, an exterior manifestation of interior impoverishment among church leaders. He devotes himself, then to the remedy of reparation: his own self-offering of sufferings and prayer in holy charity, a small drop in the infinite sea of redemption offered by Christ on the Cross.
Another contemplative person gifted as a prophet, realizing the holy light of Truth and power in the Words of God, seeks to bathe the Church in whatever measure of divine light God has given him, for others. He is called to proclaim, and he seeks ways and opportunities to obey that call.
Then there are others who are always focused outwardly, blind to realities within themselves or within others - except to the extent that outside things are pleasing or are not pleasing to them! To the extent that a synod advances their pleasure, wealth or status, it is good. To the extent that a synod inhibits or reduces their pleasure, wealth or status, it is bad. They have not (perhaps 'yet') developed an interiority, an inwardness, in their lives in any aspect, religious or secular. Their focus is always "out there", not "the within" of things. This characteristic is not good if one remains in it - as a passing stage, it is common, but as a life-long habit it is a tragedy.

 

[mourningdove~]

That is a question having a very complicated answer! Persons showing "zero" involvement in "synodality" in the Church today can have radically different reasons for their (apparent) lack of interest; persons showing great interest similarly can be on a wide spectrum of motivations and explanations.

Thank you. I can see I've been looking at things too narrowly.

So, I suspect the persons I listen to on the internet probably fall in this 1st category, as they genuinely appear to be very prayerful:

A contemplative person, for example, can keep relatively silent on the matter because he sees it as a problem of ideology rooted in a lack of supernatural faith - that is, an exterior manifestation of interior impoverishment among church leaders. He devotes himself, then to the remedy of reparation: his own self-offering of sufferings and prayer in holy charity, a small drop in the infinite sea of redemption offered by Christ on the Cross.

And yet, I very much see the need for this 2nd group, also:

Another contemplative person gifted as a prophet, realizing the holy light of Truth and power in the Words of God, seeks to bathe the Church in whatever measure of divine light God has given him, for others. He is called to proclaim, and he seeks ways and opportunities to obey that call.

About that 1st group, that remains very silent about things ...
My thought has been that they do not speak of the pope and the controversies surrounding him because of a sort of 'allegiance' they have to him. Having something to do with obedience. Because I do hear alot about St. Theresa of Avila, and the life of obedience that she lead.

Is obedience a key factor in play here, as to why some contemplatives don't discuss the pope, current events, etc.?
(That was my guess.)

 

[fide]

Thank you. I can see I've been looking at things too narrowly.

So, I suspect the persons I listen to on the internet probably fall in this 1st category, as they genuinely appear to be very prayerful:



And yet, I very much see the need for this 2nd group, also:



About that 1st group, that remains very silent about things ...
My thought has been that they do not speak of the pope and the controversies surrounding him because of a sort of 'allegiance' they have to him. Having something to do with obedience. Because I do hear alot about St. Theresa of Avila, and the life of obedience that she lead.

Is obedience a key factor in play here, as to why some contemplatives don't discuss the pope, current events, etc.?
(That was my guess.)

The matter of obedience does become a profound challenge when obedience to a human person is, in the judgment (i.e. of the conscience) of the subject, unreasonable, or harmful, or sinful. Obedience to a well-formed [personal] conscience is imperative. Conscience can be in error, as the Catechism points out in this summary:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.”<GS 16> In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time “from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.”<1 Tim 5; cf. 8:9; 2 Tim 3; 1 Pet 3:21; Acts 24:16>
The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.<GS 16>

This pope is doing what he called young people to do, early in his papacy: "Make a mess!" The human vicar of Christ on earth, called to be the center hub of Truth which can unite all who seek to follow Christ, seems to be intentionally making a mess, an agent of confusion and division. The situation reminds me of our first Pope, Peter, immediately after the Lord laid "the keys" on his shoulders:

Mt 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Yet immediately after this, Matthew records:

Mt 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
Mt 16:22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you."
Mt 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men."

And our Pope seems now to be more concerned with the issues of men, than of God:
friendship with the world - "fellowship" - companions among men more than divine communion among those in Christ;
protecting "mother earth", our "common home" more than Mother the Church, Mother Mary, our true Mother in Her Divine Son;
and so on....

Bottom line - I continue to watch, listen, and pray to remain in God's will, obedient to Him in all things. He does continue to guide, and reveal, and whisper to those having ears to hear. His will will become clearer in time, I am sure.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For an easier book to understand, get a copy of

"Into the Silent Land: A Guide to the Christian Practice of Contemplation: by Martin Laird. ​

Fr Martin Laird is an Augustinian, so uses words that are more contemporary for our times.

Also, Fr Thomas Keating's works are very good as well.

My OCDS group found St John of the Cross easier to read than St Teresa. St Teresa herself says
she was not a good writer. In fact, she goes off on tangents and the reader often gets lost.
John of the Cross was an educated priest so, has a better writing style.

Either way, God leads, we follow. So, for some, St Teresa's works feed them, while others
find St John of the Cross easier. Then others, find both spiritually rewarding.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

And our Pope seems now to be more concerned with the issues of men, than of God:
friendship with the world - "fellowship" - companions among men more than divine communion among those in Christ;
protecting "mother earth", our "common home" more than Mother the Church, Mother Mary, our true Mother in Her Divine Son;
and so on....

This dynamic between contemplation and action, between the transcendent and the immanent, between the world and the divine is the essence of our vocation in Christ who incarnated for our salvation. Philipians 2:6 "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped". Contemplation is not grasping but a wordless, silent, the core of peace, that assists us in seeing through the polarities that divide us in every sphere of human life. When it comes to Pope Francis I do not usually critique him because of obedience, but rather humility. His thoughts and action are not subject to my approval. But, Let us remember that our friendship with Christ is lived out concretely with the least of His people. Contemplation is not a forgetfulness of the earth, the world and our brothers and sisters. As St Francis of Assisi reminds us, we are brothers and sisters with all creation.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Either way, God leads, we follow. So, for some, St Teresa's works feed them, while others
find St John of the Cross easier. Then others, find both spiritually rewarding.

And at times it seems that the Lord brings books or readings to our attention and interest that at other times left us flat.
Lately I have been getting more our of art, visual meditation.

I love this one of St Francis
.

Life of Francis of Assisi by Josep Benlliure Gil​

Category:Life of Francis of Assisi by Josep Benlliure Gil - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[mourningdove~]

For an easier book to understand, get a copy of

"Into the Silent Land: A Guide to the Christian Practice of Contemplation: by Martin Laird. ​

Fr Martin Laird is an Augustinian, so uses words that are more contemporary for our times.

Also, Fr Thomas Keating's works are very good as well.

My OCDS group found St John of the Cross easier to read than St Teresa. St Teresa herself says
she was not a good writer. In fact, she goes off on tangents and the reader often gets lost.
John of the Cross was an educated priest so, has a better writing style.

Either way, God leads, we follow. So, for some, St Teresa's works feed them, while others
find St John of the Cross easier. Then others, find both spiritually rewarding.

Thank you for the book recommendation ... I will check it out!

I am presently working thru an online group study of Fr. Thomas Dubay's book, "Fire Within".
He is so much easier to read on contemplation than Fr. Donald Haggerty, where I started.
Fr. Dubay writes with much clarity, on a deep subject. (Works good for me!)

I don't expect I will anytime soon be reading books by St. Teresa or St. John of the Cross.
(I don't think I have the time left in life to sit and try to figure what they are saying! lol)
For my purposes, I think I will learn enough in the Fr. Dubay book, and thru other more modern resources.
Again, the recommendation is appreciated.

 

[mourningdove~]

I love this one of St Francis
.View attachment 337439

If you are comfortable sharing, what does that photo say to you?

 

[mourningdove~]

When it comes to Pope Francis I do not usually critique him because of obedience, but rather humility.

Thank you.
I think that is the case also, with the contemplative persons I've been encountering who are silent.
It is the explanation that would seem to best fit them.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If you are comfortable sharing, what does that photo say to you?

Thanks for asking. I went back and added the artist name with link.

Let's see if can articulate the inner impact it has on me.

Many pictures of St Francis look like a holy card fantasy. And now that I think about it, when I was a friar in my younger days, I was living that fantasy, you know, sandals, habit, beard, etc. But I think the real Francis was more acquainted with hunger, barefoot in the snow. A life of inconvenience and what I now think of as an existential cutting edge without so many of the comforts we rely on. The truth is that we all live on the existential edge but hide it from ourselves with other preoccupations, securities and illusions that things belong to us. As I have gotten older and witnessed or experienced deep human suffering I think I have better appreciation for what it is all about. See: Salvifici Doloris (February 11, 1984) | John Paul II

Anyway. This picture reminds me that in recognizing and accepting our helplessness, our dependence, our frailty and vulnerability, every step of our journey can become a moment of divine intimacy. And it might hurt. This picture is for my a visual expression of the prayer of St Ignatius of Loyola:

"Take, Lord, receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
my whole will,
all that I have and all that I possess.

You gave it all to me, Lord;
I give it all back to you.
Do with it as you will,
according to your good pleasure.
Give me your love and your grace;
for with this I have all that I need."

Of course I am not there yet anymore than I am ready to walk barefoot in the snow. I especially want to hold on to my memory, understanding and will. I remember from my friar days the concept of "poverty of will". Easy to say, but really? Doing things I would rather not do? That I dread doing. But bring love into it and the bitter becomes sweet. That is all that matters. Part of me is there with Francis, perhaps with the staff and bag of stuff. More likely also with boots, sock hat and overcoat.

 

[fide]

This dynamic between contemplation and action, between the transcendent and the immanent, between the world and the divine is the essence of our vocation in Christ who incarnated for our salvation. Philipians 2:6 "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped". Contemplation is not grasping but a wordless, silent, the core of peace, that assists us in seeing through the polarities that divide us in every sphere of human life. When it comes to Pope Francis I do not usually critique him because of obedience, but rather humility. His thoughts and action are not subject to my approval. But, Let us remember that our friendship with Christ is lived out concretely with the least of His people. Contemplation is not a forgetfulness of the earth, the world and our brothers and sisters. As St Francis of Assisi reminds us, we are brothers and sisters with all creation.

I agree contemplation is not a forgetfulness... of anything. It is positively something, much more than negatively anything. Contemplation is a personal communion with God - and thus is infinitely superior to anything material. And all of creation - all created reality, material and spiritual, was created for man.
CCC 358 God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him.

Thus, "we are brothers and sisters with all creation" (if I understand you correctly) only in a limited sense: mankind is superior to, not equivalent to, the rest of creation. Superior to, but but also responsible before God for, the stewardship we exercise over creation in His name.

 

[fide]

Thanks for asking. I went back and added the artist name with link.

Let's see if can articulate the inner impact it has on me.

Many pictures of St Francis look like a holy card fantasy. And now that I think about it, when I was a friar in my younger days, I was living that fantasy, you know, sandals, habit, beard, etc. But I think the real Francis was more acquainted with hunger, barefoot in the snow. A life of inconvenience and what I now think of as an existential cutting edge without so many of the comforts we rely on. The truth is that we all live on the existential edge but hide it from ourselves with other preoccupations, securities and illusions that things belong to us. As I have gotten older and witnessed or experienced deep human suffering I think I have better appreciation for what it is all about. See: Salvifici Doloris (February 11, 1984) | John Paul II

Anyway. This picture reminds me that in recognizing and accepting our helplessness, our dependence, our frailty and vulnerability, every step of our journey can become a moment of divine intimacy. And it might hurt. This picture is for my a visual expression of the prayer of St Ignatius of Loyola:

"Take, Lord, receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
my whole will,
all that I have and all that I possess.

You gave it all to me, Lord;
I give it all back to you.
Do with it as you will,
according to your good pleasure.
Give me your love and your grace;
for with this I have all that I need."

Of course I am not there yet anymore than I am ready to walk barefoot in the snow. I especially want to hold on to my memory, understanding and will. I remember from my friar days the concept of "poverty of will". Easy to say, but really? Doing things I would rather not do? That I dread doing. But bring love into it and the bitter becomes sweet. That is all that matters. Part of me is there with Francis, perhaps with the staff and bag of stuff. More likely also with boots, sock hat and overcoat.

I just wanted to thank you for including that beautiful prayer of St. Ignatius of Loyola. And re: "memory, understanding and will" - years and years adding to age, give us in God's design, in our fallen state, fading memory, weakness of understanding and declining ability to do what we will -- all helping us toward a purity of heart in sincerely professing "Give me your love and your grace; for with this I have all that I need."
And thanks be to God.