Contemplative Prayer Question

mourningdove~

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Is it normal, when one begins studying contemplative prayer ...
to find the reading material on this subject (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, etc.) to be 'intellectually' challenging?

I've been reading some books on contemplative prayer by Fr. Donald Haggerty.
I'm about to tackle "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
I'm an avid spiritual reader, but these books seem to go very spiritually 'deep'.
I find I need to take them slowly and intently, to grasp what I'm reading.

I'm very slowly 'getting it' ... but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps what is most needed when reading these kinds of books is for God to 'enlighten' our minds so as to be able to grasp what is being taught?

I definitely believe there is 'a call' one experiences to contemplative prayer. It is something God does ... initiates. A spiritual hunger He gives us.
So as we learn about it, is the journey into contemplative prayer then more 'spiritual' than 'intellectual' learning?

... Is that why these books seem so challenging to read?
(Or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That's possible, too! lol)
 

Gnarwhal

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Is it normal, when one begins studying contemplative prayer ...
to find the reading material on this subject (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, etc.) to be 'intellectually' challenging?

I've been reading some books on contemplative prayer by Fr. Donald Haggerty.
I'm about to tackle "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
I'm an avid spiritual reader, but these books seem to go very spiritually 'deep'.
I find I need to take them slowly and intently, to grasp what I'm reading.

I'm very slowly 'getting it' ... but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps what is most needed when reading these kinds of books is for God to 'enlighten' our minds so as to be able to grasp what is being taught?

I definitely believe there is 'a call' one experiences to contemplative prayer. It is something God does ... initiates. A spiritual hunger He gives us.
So as we learn about it, is the journey into contemplative prayer then more 'spiritual' than 'intellectual' learning?

... Is that why these books seem so challenging to read?
(Or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That's possible, too! lol)
I think diocesan priests are naturally going to trend towards an academic view of things. Perhaps you can find better understanding by seeing what different religious have to say about it? For example, I know Cistercians/Trappists practice contemplative prayer and their spirituality as a whole is very minimalist and simplistic. I believe they borrow their contemplative practices from the Benedictines so you could maybe look in that direction for better understanding?

That's just a thought.

I also saw this book from a Lay Cistercian that might be helpful, since he's approaching the whole thing as a layman in the first place:

 
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mourningdove~

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I think diocesan priests are naturally going to trend towards an academic view of things. Perhaps you can find better understanding by seeing what different religious have to say about it? For example, I know Cistercians/Trappists practice contemplative prayer and their spirituality as a whole is very minimalist and simplistic. I believe they borrow their contemplative practices from the Benedictines so you could maybe look in that direction for better understanding?

That's just a thought.

I also saw this book from a Lay Cistercian that might be helpful, since he's approaching the whole thing as a layman in the first place:


Thank you! Interesting insight ... into diocesan priests ... and while the book on prayer looks interesting, so also do some of the other book titles on that same webpage. (Like ... "Ways to Approach the Mystery of Faith Without Frying Your Neurons" ... lol!)

One of the things I absolutely love about Catholic spiritual reading is that many Catholic writers do go very 'deep'. There are so many layers to the Catholic spiritual life, and I do not think we ever really get to the bottom of it!

So I'm guessing that books about and by John of the Cross, etc., are just harder for some of us to read. Doesn't need to be a reason, I suppose. But I will be going thru the "Fire Within" book with an online study group (Women of Grace) so that may be my best shot at getting some clarity into these particular writings on contemplative prayer.
 
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fide

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I have long recommended "The Ordinary Path to Holiness: The treasure of Catholic spirituality re-presented for our times"
by R. Thomas Richard, Foreword by Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel, CFR. An EWTN "Bookmark" interview with the author on the first edition when it came out (now in 3rd edition - additional content) - a video of the interview is HERE on the author's website.
Some brief comments on the book on the Amazon page for it is here.:
This is a book for life-long Catholics seeking a deeper interior life...

"The Ordinary Path to Holiness will be an immense help in understanding the spiritual journey for anyone who is beginning to make progress in the spiritual life. It will also be a good review for those familiar with the Catholic literature on this important subject."
Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR, Founder of The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal

...and for converts to the Faith...

"Many converts struggle in the transition from their previous spiritualities into the sometimes debilitating width, depth, breadth and height of Catholic mystical spirituality. Where does one begin? I believe that this is the best summary of basic Catholic spirituality I have found yet, and therefore is a great place to begin."
Marcus Grodi, Founder of The Coming Home Network

...an integral presentation:
"Profound and practical, The Ordinary Path to Holiness shares an approach to the spiritual life that integrates Scripture, liturgy and doctrine. This book feeds both head and heart."
Dr. Scott Hahn, Founder of Institute of Applied Biblical Studies
 
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mourningdove~

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I have long recommended "The Ordinary Path to Holiness: The treasure of Catholic spirituality re-presented for our times"
by R. Thomas Richard, Foreword by Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel, CFR. An EWTN "Bookmark" interview with the author on the first edition when it came out (now in 3rd edition - additional content) - a video of the interview is HERE on the author's website.
Some brief comments on the book on the Amazon page for it is here.:

The EWTN interview with the author was very informational to watch.
Thank you for providing that link.

... So it looks like a very good deal to me, the book at $9.95 (Kindle price) on Amazon!
 
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fide

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The EWTN interview with the author was very informational to watch.
Thank you for providing that link.

... So it looks like a very good deal to me, the book at $9.95 (Kindle price) on Amazon!
The book does specifically discuss the development of prayer - your original issue - from the first "grade" of prayer (vocal prayer) through the other grades of ascetical prayer, into mystical prayer (infused contemplation), to the heights of contemplation. Much less discussion of the very "advanced grades", much more on the beginning grades, keeping appropriate for those beginning to get serious about actually growing in the "art and science" of prayer. May the Lord bless you and give you grace on this - a real "journey" - of growing in the Interior Life. Let us know how it goes! "Going" and "growing" lasts a lifetime, btw.
 
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joymercy

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Is it normal, when one begins studying contemplative prayer ...
to find the reading material on this subject (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, etc.) to be 'intellectually' challenging?

I've been reading some books on contemplative prayer by Fr. Donald Haggerty.
I'm about to tackle "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
I'm an avid spiritual reader, but these books seem to go very spiritually 'deep'.
I find I need to take them slowly and intently, to grasp what I'm reading.

I'm very slowly 'getting it' ... but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps what is most needed when reading these kinds of books is for God to 'enlighten' our minds so as to be able to grasp what is being taught?

I definitely believe there is 'a call' one experiences to contemplative prayer. It is something God does ... initiates. A spiritual hunger He gives us.
So as we learn about it, is the journey into contemplative prayer then more 'spiritual' than 'intellectual' learning?

... Is that why these books seem so challenging to read?
(Or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That's possible, too! lol)
I find its too hard for me to stay focused and not get distracted, when ever I'm sitting up and trying to read.

Just in time for my older age, lol, I have discovered the beauty of listening to podcasts or you tube videos or audio books or even just the audio file of someones lecture or homily that they post on their personal blog.

by listening using my ears instead, it allows for me to lay quietly and comfortably while I may also have on some heavenly chant or soothing mystical music, can close my eyes, or also enjoy a scent of some kind such as drops of oil in a humidifier
creating my own little quite space for deeper listening.....


f6aa0d99de4f3de5e0f3fd885086f6df.jpg


and can listen and take deeper breaths, even do some stretches while relaxing
 
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WarriorAngel

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Is it normal, when one begins studying contemplative prayer ...
to find the reading material on this subject (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, etc.) to be 'intellectually' challenging?

I've been reading some books on contemplative prayer by Fr. Donald Haggerty.
I'm about to tackle "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
I'm an avid spiritual reader, but these books seem to go very spiritually 'deep'.
I find I need to take them slowly and intently, to grasp what I'm reading.

I'm very slowly 'getting it' ... but I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps what is most needed when reading these kinds of books is for God to 'enlighten' our minds so as to be able to grasp what is being taught?

I definitely believe there is 'a call' one experiences to contemplative prayer. It is something God does ... initiates. A spiritual hunger He gives us.
So as we learn about it, is the journey into contemplative prayer then more 'spiritual' than 'intellectual' learning?

... Is that why these books seem so challenging to read?
(Or maybe I'm just a slow learner. That's possible, too! lol)
IMHO - and I'm just pondering that
whatever book is in tune with our gifts from the Lord, whatever journey He wishes for us uniquely, whatever calling He has given you will resonate with you.

If there's one thing that's true of the Saints, writings, contemplations, is they are all unique.

So whatever pulls you to them with a resounding 'Yes yes yes...!"
Then your heart, mind and soul will know.

Maybe St Therese the little flower is more in tune for you. :groupray:
I feel you like/have light, innocent, even child like faith.


St. Therese of Lisieux​

Her sense of commitment led her to a profound experience of the love of God and of neighbor. She never had an easy life, but she did live with a great sense of peace and joy.
 
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mourningdove~

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Adding St John of the Cross is darker...
And I just don't feel you have that journey.

I understand what you are saying, about St. John's "darkness".
Yet it does appear that St. Therese was influenced by St. John, different as they were in many ways.

Thanks for your feedback, as it sent me out to the internet to do some searching, and learning.
I found this ...


Therese and Saint John of the Cross
By Federico Ruiz, OCD


Thérèse's Affinity with John


After she entered Carmel Thérèse openly admitted her debt to John of the Cross: "Ah! how many lights have I not drawn from the works of our holy Father, St. John of the Cross! At the ages of seventeen and eighteen I had no other spiritual nourishment" (Story of a Soul, A 83r). But these lights began earlier and continued increasing until her death. When in a period of dryness she focused on the Gospels in her prayer, and left aside spiritual books, John of the Cross remained the exception, perhaps the only one. She continued reading and quoting from him with the same fondness as before. In the last months of her life, she frequently relived and repeated words from the Living Flame of Love. Explicit references to John of the Cross appear throughout her writings. Direct testimonies abound that she continually mentioned his life and doctrine in her conversations and oral teachings.

Contrasts in Life and Culture

The attraction is surprising. Given the differences in origin, family, epoch, life, temperament, and education, the harmony between the two is unexpected. In Thérèse we find a childhood surrounded by affection and bounty, a temperament sensitive and emotional; she was the centre of attention for her whole family, isolated from the world and its suffering. In John of the Cross, on the other hand, we find a childhood of suffering and privation, hard and humble work, study, and care of those with contagious diseases. Within Carmel the life of the two manifests little in common. Thérèse writes at age twenty in a narrative, autobiographical, and anecdotal style. John at forty writes in a clean, essential, and symbolic language.

But beyond the differences, there prevails a kind of pre-established harmony. When Thérèse was twelve or thirteen years old her father hid the works of St. John of the Cross from her for fear that his rigorous teachings would warp her spiritual growth. Precisely from those years of growth an autograph has been conserved, in which she repeats in a handwriting exercise the strong motto of John of the Cross: "Lord, to suffer and be despised for you."

The Type of Relationship

Her interest in her Carmelite father and master was not a matter of simple devotion or of recalling luminous passages. What we find is a convergence in key points of their teaching. Thérèse experienced a profound and spontaneous communion with the very person of the saint, and not merely with his writings. He is "Our Holy Father," the spiritual father of the Teresian Carmelite family. Attitudes and sentiments of veneration, affection, and discipleship were mingled: he is the saint, the father, the master, a brother and friend. Her admiration was spontaneous for this mature man, this experienced and sure witness to God, who was also a theologian of keen insight. She feels she is his disciple, sister, reader, daughter. In him she finds a spiritual model who empowers, strengthens, inspires, and offers her sometimes even the exact word for expressing her own experience.

Toward the Nucleus

An unerring instinct guides her directly to the nucleus of John of the Cross's experience: love, vocation in the church, dark and sure faith, the cross, hope, death and glory. She discovers the dynamics of the theological virtues in John's synthesis at a time when the theological/spiritual study of his doctrine had not yet come to a similar precision. All her quotations and all that strikes a chord in her are connected with the life of the theological virtues: union of love, intimate experience (in intensity and extension) of union with God in faith, love, and hope. This tri?dimensional relationship with God has from the beginning to the end the same axis for both saints: love, the life and death of love. We know that among the few books Thérèse kept in her room for personal use are the Spiritual Canticle and the Living Flame of Love, bound in one volume. Love is her centre, but not her boundary. Impelled by an expanding love, Thérèse takes upon herself the demands and experience of the todo/nada (the "all/nothing") found in the Ascent, as well as the "night of faith" found in the Dark Night.

(more)

 
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I understand what you are saying, about St. John's "darkness".
Yet it does appear that St. Therese was influenced by St. John, different as they were in many ways.

Thanks for your feedback, as it sent me out to the internet to do some searching, and learning.
I found this ...


Therese and Saint John of the Cross
By Federico Ruiz, OCD


Thérèse's Affinity with John


After she entered Carmel Thérèse openly admitted her debt to John of the Cross: "Ah! how many lights have I not drawn from the works of our holy Father, St. John of the Cross! At the ages of seventeen and eighteen I had no other spiritual nourishment" (Story of a Soul, A 83r). But these lights began earlier and continued increasing until her death. When in a period of dryness she focused on the Gospels in her prayer, and left aside spiritual books, John of the Cross remained the exception, perhaps the only one. She continued reading and quoting from him with the same fondness as before. In the last months of her life, she frequently relived and repeated words from the Living Flame of Love. Explicit references to John of the Cross appear throughout her writings. Direct testimonies abound that she continually mentioned his life and doctrine in her conversations and oral teachings.

Contrasts in Life and Culture

The attraction is surprising. Given the differences in origin, family, epoch, life, temperament, and education, the harmony between the two is unexpected. In Thérèse we find a childhood surrounded by affection and bounty, a temperament sensitive and emotional; she was the centre of attention for her whole family, isolated from the world and its suffering. In John of the Cross, on the other hand, we find a childhood of suffering and privation, hard and humble work, study, and care of those with contagious diseases. Within Carmel the life of the two manifests little in common. Thérèse writes at age twenty in a narrative, autobiographical, and anecdotal style. John at forty writes in a clean, essential, and symbolic language.

But beyond the differences, there prevails a kind of pre-established harmony. When Thérèse was twelve or thirteen years old her father hid the works of St. John of the Cross from her for fear that his rigorous teachings would warp her spiritual growth. Precisely from those years of growth an autograph has been conserved, in which she repeats in a handwriting exercise the strong motto of John of the Cross: "Lord, to suffer and be despised for you."

The Type of Relationship

Her interest in her Carmelite father and master was not a matter of simple devotion or of recalling luminous passages. What we find is a convergence in key points of their teaching. Thérèse experienced a profound and spontaneous communion with the very person of the saint, and not merely with his writings. He is "Our Holy Father," the spiritual father of the Teresian Carmelite family. Attitudes and sentiments of veneration, affection, and discipleship were mingled: he is the saint, the father, the master, a brother and friend. Her admiration was spontaneous for this mature man, this experienced and sure witness to God, who was also a theologian of keen insight. She feels she is his disciple, sister, reader, daughter. In him she finds a spiritual model who empowers, strengthens, inspires, and offers her sometimes even the exact word for expressing her own experience.

Toward the Nucleus

An unerring instinct guides her directly to the nucleus of John of the Cross's experience: love, vocation in the church, dark and sure faith, the cross, hope, death and glory. She discovers the dynamics of the theological virtues in John's synthesis at a time when the theological/spiritual study of his doctrine had not yet come to a similar precision. All her quotations and all that strikes a chord in her are connected with the life of the theological virtues: union of love, intimate experience (in intensity and extension) of union with God in faith, love, and hope. This tri?dimensional relationship with God has from the beginning to the end the same axis for both saints: love, the life and death of love. We know that among the few books Thérèse kept in her room for personal use are the Spiritual Canticle and the Living Flame of Love, bound in one volume. Love is her centre, but not her boundary. Impelled by an expanding love, Thérèse takes upon herself the demands and experience of the todo/nada (the "all/nothing") found in the Ascent, as well as the "night of faith" found in the Dark Night.

(more)

I actually do not know if any Saint did not have darkness.
It's probably regular being that the world is dark and absent of the Almighty's Presence Absolute.
IE we're not before His throne.
Therefore; darkness is in the world.
'Attaining' Sainthood is difficult.
Overcoming the 'world' is not an easy feat nor is it something we can do alone.


 
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mourningdove~

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The book does specifically discuss the development of prayer - your original issue - from the first "grade" of prayer (vocal prayer) through the other grades of ascetical prayer, into mystical prayer (infused contemplation), to the heights of contemplation. Much less discussion of the very "advanced grades", much more on the beginning grades, keeping appropriate for those beginning to get serious about actually growing in the "art and science" of prayer. May the Lord bless you and give you grace on this - a real "journey" - of growing in the Interior Life. Let us know how it goes! "Going" and "growing" lasts a lifetime, btw.

I am now a third of the way thru the book.
Today, I completed Chapter 3 (Growing Intimacy with Christ: Scripture).
(Wow!)

Either this author wrote this book under divine inspiration ...
or maybe I am just ready to 'hear' what he is 'saying' ...
or maybe it is 'alittle of both' ...
but this book is very, very good!
 
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fide

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I am now a third of the way thru the book.
Today, I completed Chapter 3 (Growing Intimacy with Christ: Scripture).
(Wow!)

Either this author wrote this book under divine inspiration ...
or maybe I am just ready to 'hear' what he is 'saying' ...
or maybe it is 'alittle of both' ...
but this book is very, very good!
I'm very happy to hear it is helpful to you. The Lord really wants us to grow in the life of prayer - and He does have a way of providing what we need, when we need it and as we are able to receive it, when we are sincerely seeking the good.
 
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mourningdove~

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I'm very happy to hear it is helpful to you. The Lord really wants us to grow in the life of prayer - and He does have a way of providing what we need, when we need it and as we are able to receive it, when we are sincerely seeking the good.

... on seeking 'the good' ...

My reading and studying goes well ...
my efforts are nicely blending together in focus ...
but what I am noticing within myself is 'a struggle' between beliefs.

In the more fundamental Protestant churches I've attended, alot of emphasis is put on works ... specifically evangelism.
In Protestant Pentecostalism, more emphasis is put on works ... particularly the importance of spiritual ministry gifts.
In those churches, I encountered alot of emphasis on 'doing'.
And I don't disagree in the importance of 'doing'.

In studying contemplative prayer, the emphasis is much more on the interior life.
Really, this is a whole 'shift in thinking' for me.
I've repeatedly studied prayer throughout my Christian life, but nothing compares to the things I am now learning.
The shift in focus almost feels 'selfish' to me (because it is enjoyable) ...
and yet, the Lord wants for us to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, strength.
(It doesn't get any plainer than that!)

To make holiness and prayer one's main focus is foreign to me.
I ask myself, "What about all those works we're suppose to be doing?"
But God says we are to love Him above all things, so growing in love must be very important to Him ...
 
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fide

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... on seeking 'the good' ...

My reading and studying goes well ...
my efforts are nicely blending together in focus ...
but what I am noticing within myself is 'a struggle' between beliefs.

In the more fundamental Protestant churches I've attended, alot of emphasis is put on works ... specifically evangelism.
In "Evangelical Catholic" parishes, I find the same thing. But... we can't "make disciples" (Mt 28:19-20) when we are hardly past (if we are past) the "Babes in Christ" (1 Cor 3:1 ff) stage ourselves.
In Protestant Pentecostalism, more emphasis is put on works ... particularly the importance of spiritual ministry gifts.
In those churches, I encountered alot of emphasis on 'doing'.
And I don't disagree in the importance of 'doing'.

As Paul wrote:
1Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cor 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

In studying contemplative prayer, the emphasis is much more on the interior life.
Really, this is a whole 'shift in thinking' for me.
I've repeatedly studied prayer throughout my Christian life, but nothing compares to the things I am now learning.
The shift in focus almost feels 'selfish' to me (because it is enjoyable) ...
and yet, the Lord wants for us to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, strength.
(It doesn't get any plainer than that!)

To make holiness and prayer one's main focus is foreign to me.
I ask myself, "What about all those works we're suppose to be doing?"
But God says we are to love Him above all things, so growing in love must be very important to Him ...

Growing in faith, and hope, and love - in the Interior Life of Prayer - is primary, foundational, essential. Until we recognize the self-love in us, and repent, purge and be purified in the fires of His grace, our busyness in religious works can be (as Paul noted above) fruitless.
After three years or so of intense formation with the Master, still the Apostles were not ready for the apostolate:
Lk 24:49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."
It is saddening to me that so many pastors neglect the need in the people for maturation in the Faith, and seem content keeping them busy.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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The Philokalia is probably the deepest material on this matter. Every time I try, I don't get very far. It doesn't make much sense to me other than it is obviously not God's will that I try to understand something so deep. It's like I'm trying to read rocket science and I retain no information at all, even though the words couldn't be simpler English.
 
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I find its too hard for me to stay focused and not get distracted, when ever I'm sitting up and trying to read.

Just in time for my older age, lol, I have discovered the beauty of listening to podcasts or you tube videos or audio books or even just the audio file of someones lecture or homily that they post on their personal blog.

by listening using my ears instead, it allows for me to lay quietly and comfortably while I may also have on some heavenly chant or soothing mystical music, can close my eyes, or also enjoy a scent of some kind such as drops of oil in a humidifier
creating my own little quite space for deeper listening.....


View attachment 335925

and can listen and take deeper breaths, even do some stretches while relaxing
What a clever use of space that is
 
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mourningdove~

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The Philokalia is probably the deepest material on this matter. Every time I try, I don't get very far. It doesn't make much sense to me other than it is obviously not God's will that I try to understand something so deep. It's like I'm trying to read rocket science and I retain no information at all, even though the words couldn't be simpler English.

Wow. Checked it out on Amazon ... looks hard! o_O

This book I have been discussing ... "The Ordinary Path to Holiness" ...
is much easier to read, but definitely not a 'simpleton' book, as the title may seem to imply.
:)
 
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fide

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The Philokalia is probably the deepest material on this matter. Every time I try, I don't get very far. It doesn't make much sense to me other than it is obviously not God's will that I try to understand something so deep. It's like I'm trying to read rocket science and I retain no information at all, even though the words couldn't be simpler English.
Speaking as one knowing very little of the Orthodox Faith, and even less of the mystical writers in the Orthodox Faith, I do know of the futility of inexperienced academics in the West trying to rationalize - that is, "make rational" - supernatural matters using only their natural concepts and language. (If that sentence of mine makes any sense!). Thus Jesus used parables, John of the Cross used both reasoning and poetry, some others I've heard pointed to music, some artists try to speak through the artistic gifts God gave them - .....

But in the end, there is no substitute for experience. (How does one explain colors to one who is colorblind? Or conjugal love to a child? Or to a man who knows only lust?) Yet God wills His own to grow, to mature, to advance toward His desire and intention for all of Creation to be in union - union! - with Him who IS - supernatural and spiritual.

So "how does one 'get experience'?'' One "grows into it." This calls for formation - the wise direction of the child toward, and into, maturity: one 'phase' of growing at a time, as loving, patient and prudent parents do "naturally." Spiritual "parents" need to do what they ought, and then God can well do the rest, as only He can do.
 
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