Conservative Pastor Overcomes Struggles to Accept Transgender Daughter

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Johnboy60

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Pastor Kris Widmer is a fourth generation Adventist and has been a pastor for the past 32 years. His wife, Debbie, was also born and raised in Adventism. Pastor Widmer has been ministering at his current church in Antioch, California, for seven years.

But a letter from their child turned everything that the Widmers thought they knew upside down.

Conservative pastor overcomes struggles to accept transgender daughter
 
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Linda24

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That a clergyman is not pleased when he learns that his child does not feel good in the biological sex, I can understand. For me, it would also be a shock if my adult son came to me to tell me that he feels like a woman, and does not want to be called Steve, but Stefanie. The first thing I would do in such a case would be to pray, and the second to seek answers in the Bible, a method that usually helps me to know what the will of God is for me and my family ,
I would then find two things:
On the one hand, the Bible does not write about transsexuality, but the phenomenon knows (keyword "eunuch"); And on the other hand, that the Bible teaches us not to judge.
So, I would not be thrilled about my transsexual son who will be my daughter but I would love her just as I loved him. Mothers do it this way.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Pastor Kris Widmer is a fourth generation Adventist and has been a pastor for the past 32 years. His wife, Debbie, was also born and raised in Adventism. Pastor Widmer has been ministering at his current church in Antioch, California, for seven years.

But a letter from their child turned everything that the Widmers thought they knew upside down.

Conservative pastor overcomes struggles to accept transgender daughter
There should be a distinction between the idea of loving someone and "accepting" how they want to live their life. As Jesus told the adulterous woman - "go and sin no more". He did not tell her that because He loved her it would be OK and He could just "accept" it if she wanted to continue to live her life that way. God gave us a free will to freely choose to love Him, not so that He had to accept whatever we choose to do or however we choose to live.

As a father it would be hard, but loving our children does not mean we must accept anything society tells them they should be "free" to do. The prodigal son was always still loved, but the father never accepted the way that son had formerly chosen to live his life.
 
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football5680

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I wouldn't go along with it. Only women know what it feels like to be a woman and vice versa. It wouldn't change my love for them but going along with it would be doing them a disservice. In the end, they have free will and can choose what they want to do. All I can do is make sure I am not a stumbling block to them.
 
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Linda24

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@DrBubbaLove ,

If I have understood you correctly (English is not my mother tongue), you believe that a parent should prefer a transsexual child rather than accept it as it is. I once had a transsexual woman as a partner in my profession as a telephone operator. During a coffee break, she told me about her life. To be transsexual is not a free choice as homosexuality is not a free choice! I wish my Christian brothers and sisters would learn to understand.

@football5680,

. Only women know what it feels like to be a woman and vice versa. It wouldn't change my love for them but going along with it would be doing them a disservice. In the end, they have free will and can choose what they want to do. All I can do is make sure I am not a stumbling block to them.

I've just told about the transsexual colleague. If I would not happen to see her Adam's apple, which she had always covered with a scarf), I would never have thought that she was not a woman. Her thinking, and actions, her solidarity with women, all that was feminine!

It should give us to think that even little children of 5 or 6 years old, know that they are not a "normal" boy or girl, but "different". And that these children resist, if they are forced into a gender role, which does not correspond to their feelings. On the Internet I found this information about transsexual children:

Transgender Children & Youth: Understanding the Basics | Human Rights Campaign

I quote from it:

What is “gender dysphoria”?

Gender dysphoria is the diagnosis typically given to a person whose assigned birth gender is not the same as the one with which they identify. According to the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the term – which recently replaced Gender Identity Disorder – “is intended to better characterize the experiences of affected children, adolescents, and adults.” To be clear, transgender identity is not a mental illness that can be cured with treatment. Rather, transgender people often experience a persistent and authentic disconnect between the sex assigned to them at birth and their internal sense of who they are. This disconnect is referred to by medical professionals as “gender dysphoria” because it can cause undue pain and distress in the lives of transgender people.

 
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football5680

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To be transsexual is not a free choice as homosexuality is not a free choice! I wish my Christian brothers and sisters would learn to understand.
Milo disagrees.

It should give us to think that even little children of 5 or 6 years old, know that they are not a "normal" boy or girl, but "different". And that these children resist, if they are forced into a gender role, which does not correspond to their feelings. On the Internet I found this information about transsexual children:
When I was younger, I thought the easy bake over was pretty cool and at that naive age, that would have been enough evidence to convince me I'm a girl.
 
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Linda24

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We can be of different opinion, but scientific knowledge, and the experiences of children teach us something different.
Children of a certain age like to play with sex roles. I remember how I watched my father when he tied his tie. I wanted to be like him. So I stole the clothes of my older brother, and played my father. But even then I knew I was a girl, and wanted to be a girl. I was a lesbian girl, I found out only after my marriage and the divorce.
Transsexual children know from a small age that they are transsexual, even if they can not name it. In the movie "My Life in Pink" the transsexual boy says he is a "girl boy", and that when he was born, a Y chromosome was exchanged instead of an X chromosome. I saw a documentation of American children on YouTube, with German subtitles where not only these children and their parents, but also doctors and psychologists came to speak. For me it is clear that transexuality, like homosexuality, is not a free choice. Or would you voluntarily choose to be offended by your family, become a homeless child, or be murdered for sexual orientation or gender identity? Definitely not!

Here from Youtube two documentaries about this topic:

 
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Raphael Jauregui

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I wouldn't go along with it. Only women know what it feels like to be a woman and vice versa. It wouldn't change my love for them but going along with it would be doing them a disservice. In the end, they have free will and can choose what they want to do. All I can do is make sure I am not a stumbling block to them.
It is not a 'choice' to be transgender or transsexual (I will use the shorthand trans* to refer to both); given the prejudice an discrimination that trans* people face, it would not be a 'choice' for most people. I know trans* people and have trans* friends. They may not know what it is like to a cisgender man/woman, but they do know what it is like to be a trans* man or woman.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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@DrBubbaLove ,

If I have understood you correctly (English is not my mother tongue), you believe that a parent should prefer a transsexual child rather than accept it as it is. I once had a transsexual woman as a partner in my profession as a telephone operator. During a coffee break, she told me about her life. To be transsexual is not a free choice as homosexuality is not a free choice! I wish my Christian brothers and sisters would learn to understand.
I meant to say a parent need not accept sinful behavior of a child. We cannot choose our children, so we can only love them as they are - warts and all. That does not mean we have to accept everything they want to do or not do or just be OK with every choice they make. If my son decided he was really gay, left his wife and children, I would still love him. However I could not support him actively pursuing that lifestyle - specifically sex. His only right option there is celibacy and it should have been something that he did before marrying and having children.

The idea we should each be free to choose for ourselves what gender we are, and even modify our behavior or body or both in pursuit of what we desire for ourself is wrong. We were made for a purpose and that purpose is not solely to fulfill or pursue or satisfy our own desires.
 
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It is not a 'choice' to be transgender or transsexual (I will use the shorthand trans* to refer to both); given the prejudice an discrimination that trans* people face, it would not be a 'choice' for most people. I know trans* people and have trans* friends. They may not know what it is like to a cisgender man/woman, but they do know what it is like to be a trans* man or woman.
No it is not a "choice" in some cases perhaps, but am not certain about all cases as there is more going on there than simply genetics I think. As far as all sexuality/gender issues goes there are multiple known genetic abnormalities that people can be born with - clearly not a choice. These people along with homosexuals are in no different boat regarding their sexuality than a single heterosexual person. Celibacy is the only relevant choice we could talk about if a hetrosexual relationship is not possible. Loving those people, regardless of the choice they make in that regard is still required.

The choice that matters and the one Christians should be concerned with is what to do with the body and soul God gave us.
 
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Raphael Jauregui

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Celibacy is the only relevant choice we could talk about if a hetrosexual relationship is not possible. Loving those people, regardless of the choice they make in that regard is still required.
The choice that matters and the one Christians should be concerned with is what to do with the body and soul God gave us.
That is a very different topic than discussing specifically trans* civil rights, but "heterosexual relationship" is not necessarily marriage. The conservative position is that people must be heterosexually married, not just in a heterosexual relationship.

However, that is clearly not the only option. First of all, people can be 'celibate', that is not married or even sexually abstinent, and also be in same-sex or opposite-sex faithful loving romantic relationships. They can even be in civil unions or domestic partnerships. Secondly, I do not think that celibacy is the only calling for LGBTI people. Marriage is an institution that can strengthen families and it has been reformed many times in history.
 
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Linda24

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I meant to say a parent need not accept sinful behavior of a child. We cannot choose our children, so we can only love them as they are - warts and all. That does not mean we have to accept everything they want to do or not do or just be OK with every choice they make. If my son decided he was really gay, left his wife and children, I would still love him. However I could not support him actively pursuing that lifestyle - specifically sex. His only right option there is celibacy and it should have been something that he did before marrying and having children.

You call it "love" I call it "violence". Why? I would like to tell you a true story from my LDS past. And remember that topic here is transsexual children:

In my ward there was a young woman who liked everyone. Musically highly gifted, friendly, caring, and above all with British humor. No wonder her family came from the "island"! She was 15 years old. Then she committed suicide, nobody knew why. Until their burial, as a member of the LDS church, and family members, a group of young people, all to be recognized as transsexual, the access to the burial ceremony was denied. So the community learned that Susanne (so the name of the young woman) was transsexual, felt as a man, something her family did not accept. They wanted her to go to therapy to be normal again, they wanted to go with boys, yes, they even beat them. Susanne was too young to leave the family. She saw no other way out than to kill herself.

Had the parents, the family, and the church accepted her as a boy, she would have remained alive, would have become a happy man with adopted children, would have married a woman, and would have been happy. So she was unhappy because her family, and indirectly the LDS Church, wanted to force her to be someone she was not.

The idea we should each be free to choose for ourselves what gender we are, and even modify our behavior or body or both in pursuit of what we desire for ourself is wrong. We were made for a purpose and that purpose is not solely to fulfill or pursue or satisfy our own desires.

These people do not "choose" their gender "voluntarily"! The gender has chosen them. They have been born that way! Today, science knows that there are three components for the development of transsexuality (hormones, chromosomes, and socialization); However, it is not yet certain to what extent (percentages) all are connected to each other.
Earlier (until 1970), with the exception of exceptions (such as Magnus Hirschfeld or Harry Benjamin), attempts were made to force these people to accept their biological gender. These people would rather die than live in their birth sex.

No it is not a "choice" in some cases perhaps, but am not certain about all cases as there is more going on there than simply genetics I think. As far as all sexuality/gender issues goes there are multiple known genetic abnormalities that people can be born with - clearly not a choice. These people along with homosexuals are in no different boat regarding their sexuality than a single heterosexual person. Celibacy is the only relevant choice we could talk about if a hetrosexual relationship is not possible. Loving those people, regardless of the choice they make in that regard is still required.

Why do you mix the topic of transsexuality (in children) with the subject of homosexuality? Do you have no more valid arguments?
The fact is, and the two films on YouTube show that it is not a free choice that these people have no choice but to commit suicide or to land in the mental hospital; or live on the other in their perceived gender. So it is a "choice" between life and death!

The choice that matters and the one Christians should be concerned with is what to do with the body and soul God gave us.

Who knows? Perhaps God gave to mankind more than two sexes? In nature there is a variety of variations, why not in humans? There are animals that fertilize themselves, homosexuality in the animal kingdom, there are mixed beings.
If God, of which I am personally convinced, and the Bible gives me the right to create the world, also transsexuals and homosexuals, then only for one reason: To show man the diversity and beauty of his creation.
Another word on homosexuality, although it does not belong in the subject:

If you look at the biblical quotations, where it is supposed to be homosexuality, you will notice the inclusion of the context of the Biblical quotations, the historical background, and the originally used words; That the Bible statements do not refer to homosexuality, as we understand it TODAY; But of temple-prostitution, and the holyness code in Judaism.
I found this at the Internet, quite interesting:

“The point is that The Holiness Code of Leviticus prohibits male same-sex acts for religious reasons, not for sexual reasons,” said former Catholic priest Daniel Helminiak in What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. “The concern is to keep Israel distinct from the Gentiles.” (Source:The 'Holiness Code' and Homosexuality)

In Leviticus (Chapter 18 and 20) the word to'ebah is often used. Why (translated in Englisch often as "abomination")?
I quote:

When "to'ebah" refers to the breaking of a ritual law it might be better translated "ritually improper," or "involves foreign religious cult practice." Almost all of the "to'ebah" passages are considered without significance to Christians today. Many activities which were "to'ebah" transgressions to the ancient Israelites simply do not apply to modern cultures. However, most conservative Christians consider the Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 passages to be different from all the others, and still in force today.


Rabbi Gershon Caudill wrote that:

"Jews do not obligate any other religion to the observance of the Torah laws, which were given specifically to the Jewish people and their descendants, including converts. This is with the possible exception of the seven Noahide Laws, and there is dispute among the halakhic authorities as to which seven laws non-Jews need observe IF they are indeed required to observe any Torah laws at all."
Source:The Mosaic Code; Hebrew word To'ebah

The Holyness Code was valid only for the Jews, not for Christians. And it was about moral purity in connection with ritual homosexuality. I wish some Christians would finally understand this, and not look down on their LBGTI brothers and sisters.
 
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JoeP222w

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Pastor Kris Widmer is a fourth generation Adventist and has been a pastor for the past 32 years. His wife, Debbie, was also born and raised in Adventism. Pastor Widmer has been ministering at his current church in Antioch, California, for seven years.

But a letter from their child turned everything that the Widmers thought they knew upside down.

Conservative pastor overcomes struggles to accept transgender daughter

I would not consider Seventh Day Adventists to be Conservative.

Their son (he is still a male, because God created him to be male and will always be male), is in open and willful rebellion to God and living in utter confusion and sin if he thinks he is a woman. He is not. He will never carry a child in pregnancy. He will never be a wife. He will never be a mother.

If his father (the "Pastor") truly loved him, he would call him to repentance and to return to the truth of the Bible, and the son's path of disobedience will only end in a very painful eternity of torment unless he is granted repentance by God.

It is not loving to affirm someone in a habitual practice of sin and not calling them to repentance.
 
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JoeP222w

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And on the other hand, that the Bible teaches us not to judge.

Twist not scripture, lest you be like the devil.

Matthew 7:1-6 "Judge not, that you be not judged. (2) For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. (3) Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (6) "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

This is referring to hypocritical judgment. It is not referring to never evaluating a given situation in the light of God's truth and having discernment to call that which is sin, sin and that which is righteous, righteous.


John 7:1-24 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. (2) Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. (3) So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. (4) For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world." (5) For not even his brothers believed in him. (6) Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. (7) The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. (8) You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come." (9) After saying this, he remained in Galilee. (10) But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. (11) The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, "Where is he?" (12) And there was much muttering about him among the people. While some said, "He is a good man," others said, "No, he is leading the people astray." (13) Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him. (14) About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. (15) The Jews therefore marveled, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?" (16) So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. (17) If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. (18) The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. (19) Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?" (20) The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?" (21) Jesus answered them, "I did one work, and you all marvel at it. (22) Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. (23) If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? (24) Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
 
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Raphael Jauregui

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Milo disagrees.


When I was younger, I thought the easy bake over was pretty cool and at that naive age, that would have been enough evidence to convince me I'm a girl.
Milo is a racist, nationalist, and sexist. His comments about non-Europeans and women are disturbing. Milo is also transphobic. He is very prejudiced against trans* people. It's a shame that people would listen to someone like him.
 
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Linda24

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Their son (he is still a male, because God created him to be male and will always be male), is in open and willful rebellion to God and living in utter confusion and sin if he thinks he is a woman. He is not. He will never carry a child in pregnancy. He will never be a wife. He will never be a mother.

Not every biological woman gets children or wants children. The pastor's child may remain a boy chromosomally, but hormonally and from the inner self-feeling, she will be a woman.
Elders are to help their children, understand and support them, not to force them into wrong roles and condemn them!

If his father (the "Pastor") truly loved him, he would call him to repentance and to return to the truth of the Bible, and the son's path of disobedience will only end in a very painful eternity of torment unless he is granted repentance by God.

For what is the priest to lead his child to repentance? Nothing is wrong with a transsexual child! Or would you, because your child needs a much needed operation to survive, deny it? The Bible does not know transsexuality, although transgender was widespread in antiquity. The priestesses of the goddess Inanna, were partly men (called Hierodule) who castrated themselves, put on women's dresses, and lived as women.

Twist not scripture, lest you be like the devil.

I have neither horns on my head, nor a tail, and horses hooves I have not! But fun aside.
God tells us that we should not judge that is not our job. He judges us, at the resurrection. Where our good as well as evil deeds are considered. A better form than that of people who judge without looking at all points (incriminating and exonerating points).
People think that the Bible gives them the right to judge or condemn others. The Bible has often been abused to justify slavery, women's rights, and any form of discrimina- tion. But this is not the Bible!

Milo is a racist, nationalist, and sexist. His comments about non-Europeans and women are disturbing. Milo is also transphobic. He is very prejudiced against trans* people. It's a shame that people would listen to someone like him.

If someone uses him as the source of their own justification, it shows how ridiculously weak this position is.
 
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Raphael Jauregui

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If someone uses him as the source of their own justification, it shows how ridiculously weak this position is.
Agreed. It is also completely illogical to use a transphobic person as evidence that it's not a choice. That doesn't even make sense and Milo is not a psychologist. He's a now fired instigator.
 
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That is a very different topic than discussing specifically trans* civil rights, but "heterosexual relationship" is not necessarily marriage. The conservative position is that people must be heterosexually married, not just in a heterosexual relationship.

However, that is clearly not the only option. First of all, people can be 'celibate', that is not married or even sexually abstinent, and also be in same-sex or opposite-sex faithful loving romantic relationships. They can even be in civil unions or domestic partnerships. Secondly, I do not think that celibacy is the only calling for LGBTI people. Marriage is an institution that can strengthen families and it has been reformed many times in history.
I was differentiating between the "choice" I had been falsely accused of condemning others for and the actual choice which is a sin. I saw no need in this thread to detail what I meant by celibacy or address whomever one chooses to "room" with.

Single people only have one non-sinful option when it comes to sex. I consider same sex "couples" single. If they want to live together and be celibate, that is none of business. Regardless of what the law allows, marriage is a Sacrament between a man, woman and God. Our will and the law cannot change that.
 
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I was differentiating between the "choice" I had been falsely accused of condemning others for and the actual choice which is a sin. I saw no need in this thread to detail what I meant by celibacy or address whomever one chooses to "room" with.

Single people only have one non-sinful option when it comes to sex. I consider same sex "couples" single. If they want to live together and be celibate, that is none of business. Regardless of what the law allows, marriage is a Sacrament between a man, woman and God. Our will and the law cannot change that.
Well, you are free to consider something however you want. That is your right, and it is the right for others to consider themselves how they want. In The Episcopal Church, we have amended our canon law to include marriage for same-gendered couples, and the Church of England, our mother church, has supported and approved civil unions for priests in same-gender relationships.

Back to the issue of the OP, trans* people do not make a choice to be trans*. Being trans* is simply a part of who they are. There are also many people who are born intersexed, that is being born with both physical sexes, and people who are 'third-gender.' These are not choices, and it's a question of civil rights.
 
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