Confused about the character of God

[tryphena rose]

God saves all those who trust Him, who call on His Name, in line with all His Word in every way.
Those who call love hate, like nightmares in the night,
those who call hate love, like nightmares in the daytime,
those who oppose Him, who don't believe Him, who don't believe His Word,
He judges perfectly , righteously, with justice, and they have no defense.

So you're in line then with the killing of women, children and infants then? How about polygamy and slavery? Does God not allow you to have multiple wives as a man? What about a concubine, or a slave wife? He hardly says anything against those things. In fact, the bible promotes such practices from what I can see.

 

[Aaron112]

In fact, the bible promotes such practices from what I can see.

If you cannot understand the Bible, and know not the power of God as He Reveals,
including for salvation from the deceptions of wickedness,
I don't expect you to agree with any truth posited by anyone, including my posts of Scripture/ quotes of His Word.

 

[fhansen]

Hi everyone,

I'm really discouraged and confused.
I've been exchanging about christian issues with a christian pastor and some of the things he said or which he brought up
really confused me.

We were talking about healing and wether God wants to heal and why christians don't get healed and he brought up the example
of the blind man about whom Jesus said that he was born blind so that God would be glorified through his healing.

How do we interpret this? Does this mean that God PURPOSEFULLY made a human being to be born blind ONLY so that later on He (Jesus)
could heal him and glorify God?

I'm sorry, but to me this sounds really perverted.

I can't deal with this. It's simply disturbing. Is this really what Jesus meant? I hope not, but at the same time I worry what if God really is like
that?

What if God is simply "different" and we simply cannot understand His heart? To me this is totally depressing.

Is it possible that God does things which I think are perverted and simply disturbing?


Another example which my friend brought up is Job. I know Job but I haven't really thought about him for a long time. It's not a story which
I enjoy. When he mentioned Job I automatically got all my questions back which I struggled with in the past, when thinking about the book of Job.

I simply can't make sense of it and interpret Job in a way which does not disturb me.

When I imagine that God more or let made a bet with satan about wether Job would stick to his faith or not and what was at stake was Job's relatives
who all lost their lives, then this is totally disturbing to me.

Would God really do this? Would God allow people to get killed ONLY to prove something and win a bet?!


I don't know, all of this is so dragging me down. I just don't know how God really is and I hate being torn between opinions of others and my own
thoughts.

But can you really feel close to God and really trust God when AT THE SAME TIME you struggle with such thoughts and worry that God could do
things which are disturbing to you?

This only scares me and makes me feel alienated from God.

The classical position is that God gave a very radical freedom to part of His creation-ourselves and angels-and that this freedom was abused by man, alienating or dividing him in some manner from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and even from himself. Fallen man exists in a disordered, unjust state, not how he was created to be, estranged from his Creator with whom he was meant to be in continuous communion based on love. Adam loved himself too much, to the exclusion of a superior being: God. And the rest of creation would fall with man as corruption/death became our lot rather than eternal life that comes inherently from fellowship/union with and reliance upon God.

To put it another way our world is a mess in many ways, mostly due to human sin/moral evil that comes inherently as we're disunited from God. And imperfection\corruption is evident all around as physical evils abound as well: illnesses, natural catastrophes, ultimately, again, death, all in the midst of a very good and beautiful world; both good and evil are experienced, are literally known, here on earth. But God foreknew all of this, of course, and His plan for this world is to use the evils that He allows but does not cause to educate and form us, to bring us to the understanding that something is missing, that we really do need Him after all, desperately, in fact, that all good comes from Him and that He is able to overcome the evils within and without ourselves that we cannot overcome on our own, apart from Him. And He is patient in this work. He wants us to use our freedom rightly, to answer when He calls, all aided by the ever-necessary aid of His grace.

 

[tryphena rose]

If you cannot understand the Bible, and know not the power of God as He Reveals,
including for salvation from the deceptions of wickedness,
I don't expect you to agree with any truth posited by anyone, including my posts of Scripture/ quotes of His Word.

Thank you so much for answering my questions.

 

[Aaron112]

Thank you so much for answering my questions.

Not deserved apparently - you made very very false and demeaning posts about God - acting it seems like you already "have your answers" , although totally contrary to His Purpose and His Word.

 

[Aaron112]

Thank you so much for answering my questions.

I will try in other threads, maybe new thread(s), to direct more gentle and healing words to you. I just saw some of the troubles of this past year, and those can be overwhelming to anyone.

As Jesus Says:
Revelation 2:10

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

and
MSG
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”

 

[tryphena rose]

The classical position is that God gave a very radical freedom to part of His creation-ourselves and angels-and that this freedom was abused by man, alienating or dividing him in some manner from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and even from himself. Fallen man exists in a disordered, unjust state, not how he was created to be, estranged from his Creator with whom he was meant to be in continuous communion based on love. Adam loved himself too much, to the exclusion of a superior being: God. And the rest of creation would fall with man as corruption/death became our lot rather than eternal life that comes inherently from fellowship/union with and reliance upon God.

To put it another way our world is a mess in many ways, mostly due to human sin/moral evil that comes inherently as we're disunited from God. And imperfection\corruption is evident all around as physical evils abound as well: illnesses, natural catastrophes, ultimately, again, death, all in the midst of a very good and beautiful world; both good and evil are experienced, are literally known, here on earth. But God foreknew all of this, of course, and His plan for this world is to use the evils that He allows but does not cause to educate and form us, to bring us to the understanding that something is missing, that we really do need Him after all, desperately, in fact, that all good comes form Him and that He is able to overcome the evils within and without ourselves that we cannot overcome on our own, apart from Him. And He is patient in this work. He wants us to use our freedom rightly, to answer when He calls, all aided by the ever-necessary aid of His grace.

You do understand that God created everything to be good, but then literally placed the tree of good and evil in the garden? He knew humanity would fall, so why do this? Why allow such suffering and death to enter the world, literally by His all-knowing doing? This makes zero sense, to the rational mind, when given much thought. It's like trying to teach your child to do right, but then setting a trap for them to do wrong, which then you can scold and chastise them for. Would we not call that manipulation? But then that doesn't apply with God?

You mention that evil abounds in the forms of illnesses, natural catastrophes, etc. Yet, those things would not exist without God creating them as such, no? My husband recently shared a story with me, of a boy who jumped into a pool at an abandoned mansion. The water was still, very dark in color, hasn't been cleaned or disturbed in a long time. Obviously the boy did this ignorantly, without knowledge of the dangers to his decision. He paid for it with his life, in that a dangerous brain eating bacteria entered his body, and ate away at his brain. This to me was pretty astounding, that some bacteria that is so distinct even exists. That is would eat away at the brain of it's host. Is that not disturbing? Does that not make you question why God would make such a thing? Now apply that to a million different issues within this messed up world. Who else do you look to but to the creator himself? The one who CREATED THE EVIL WE SEE. You say it is not how it was "planned" or "originally designed", but you cannot escape the fact that He is all-knowing and could have created things in a different way with a different outcome, but He didn't. So it is what it is, is kind of my perspective. But it makes believing in God's goodness a challenge for sure.

Jesus wouldn't have had to die for us, if God didn't allow this mess in the first place.

 

[Aaron112]

This makes zero sense, to the rational mind, when given much thought.

The healing from Yahweh in and through Yeshua is not for the rational mind, nor for the natural man.
He delivers, saves from that, as He Says in His Perfect Plan and His Perfect Wisdom.

biblehub.com › 1_corinthians › 2-14.htm

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come ...​

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[tryphena rose]

I will try in other threads, maybe new thread(s), to direct more gentle and healing words to you. I just saw some of the troubles of this past year, and those can be overwhelming to anyone.

As Jesus Says:
Revelation 2:10

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

and
MSG
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the verses. Honestly, right now, the only good thing I see about the Bible is Christ. He's the main redeeming factor for me, as to why I even am holding onto my faith.

 

[Aaron112]

But it makes believing in God's goodness a challenge for sure.

Yes, simply, the whole world, all the 'natural' world, opposes both God and His Goodness;
they cannot grasp it nor come to understand it.

 

[Aaron112]

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the verses. Honestly, right now, the only good thing I see about the Bible is Christ. He's the main redeeming factor for me, as to why I even am holding onto my faith.

Christ Crucified is all the sum / point/ that the messengers of God in the New Testament were directed to make known. Hopefully also now, today, this is so, or is becoming so.

All the evils of mankind are dealt with in God's Wisdom - man cannot deal with them.

The freedom of mind and thought and spirit , in Christ Crucified - is miraculous and not of me nor of men (nor of woman), but of God.... HIS GIFT, totally gracious, extravagantly gracious.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Incorrect Ivan

Humanity deserves love

What humanity does not deserve is hateful nonsense like we deserve death or suffering and dying because a whiny fallen angel threw a tantrum

I concur that it would be better to have a world where we do our best to value humanity, but there's still the problem of Human Rights actually having substance, ontologically speaking, simply because we want it ...

 

[nightmares]

I concur that it would be better to have a world where we do our best to value humanity, but there's still the problem of Human Rights actually having substance, ontologically speaking, simply because we want it ...

Yeah. This is exactly why humanity needs to be set free from this world that is based on learning to be good through experiencing evil

Not repeatedly condemned by hateful Pharisees in Christian clothing

 

[Aaron112]

Humanity is condemned, people are , or can be, saved from condemnation only in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

1st John 1 John: The First Epistle of John
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. We write these things so that our joy may be complete.

And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you:

God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yeah. This is exactly why humanity needs to be set free from this world that is based on learning to be good through experiencing evil

Not repeatedly condemned by hateful Pharisees in Christian clothing

Well, yeah. There are those individuals who, for one reason or another, like to dress up their language with religious jargon and beat others over the head with it. Obviously, it would be nice if those folks could simply wake up and change their outlook on life and their approach to interacting with other human beings.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing a lot of this pharasaical sort of thing is present because of various cognitive/psychological issues that some individuals have ---- such as autism, narcissistic personality disorder, aspergers syndrom, OCD, sociopathology, etc. etc. etc.----are present too.

And sometimes, a few folks are simply brainwashed by their local social organizations and/or cultures and think that giving others guilt complexes or assorted punishments is a good thing to do.

 

[fhansen]

You do understand that God created everything to be good, but then literally placed the tree of good and evil in the garden? He knew humanity would fall, so why do this? Why allow such suffering and death to enter the world, literally by His all-knowing doing? This makes zero sense, to the rational mind, when given much thought. It's like trying to teach your child to do right, but then setting a trap for them to do wrong, which then you can scold and chastise them for. Would we not call that manipulation? But then that doesn't apply with God?

It's not a trap: man is a morally accountable being and the tree only represents moral choice, the first and most basic of which is to obey and heed God. This comes only by knowing and finally loving Him, and this is a journey, sometimes grueling at times where the creature is to learn by experience what the Creator cannot help but know, of His infinite wisdom and goodness and our absolute need for Him. Apparently it's of benefit to taste of evil if we're ever to learn to identify and shun it in favor of the good.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the verses. Honestly, right now, the only good thing I see about the Bible is Christ. He's the main redeeming factor for me, as to why I even am holding onto my faith.

Christ, far more than any other source or revelation in the bible, shows us the true nature and will of God-the "face" of God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So you're in line then with the killing of women, children and infants then? How about polygamy and slavery? Does God not allow you to have multiple wives as a man? What about a concubine, or a slave wife? He hardly says anything against those things. In fact, the bible promotes such practices from what I can see.

I think it's probably a bit too much to say that the Bible "promotes" any of those things. I'm kind of thinking that a better, more representative concept would be to say that the Bible "provisionally permits some of those things" instead, Tryphenarosa ...

I know, I know. The fact that the Old Testament still expresses what seem to be instances of these kinds of things in its many texts can be unnerving.

 

[Aaron112]

Yeah. This is exactly why humanity needs to be set free from this world that is based on learning to be good through experiencing evil
Not repeatedly condemned by hateful Pharisees in Christian clothing

If the world / society / religion was a nice place, truthful , helpful,
then God's Son would not have had to die for sin....

The problems are far far worse than any of us have experienced in our little 'bubbles' wherever we may live , or may have been. Yes, great travesties and tragedies are known 1st hand to some members and visitors to this forum, and being harmed by the world and family and even by friends and religious groups is rather common in the world.

We don't learn good by experiencing evil - no, we learn what is good from the Father in Heaven, always in Perfect Harmony with His Word , His Plan, His Purpose.
He also reveals what is wicked in mankind, in humanity,
and He Perfectly knows, and He made PROVISION for the problems , even the worst of problems, He Knew beforehand, before we ever experience them.

 

[fhansen]

You mention that evil abounds in the forms of illnesses, natural catastrophes, etc. Yet, those things would not exist without God creating them as such, no? My husband recently shared a story with me, of a boy who jumped into a pool at an abandoned mansion. The water was still, very dark in color, hasn't been cleaned or disturbed in a long time. Obviously the boy did this ignorantly, without knowledge of the dangers to his decision. He paid for it with his life, in that a dangerous brain eating bacteria entered his body, and ate away at his brain. This to me was pretty astounding, that some bacteria that is so distinct even exists. That is would eat away at the brain of it's host. Is that not disturbing? Does that not make you question why God would make such a thing? Now apply that to a million different issues within this messed up world. Who else do you look to but to the creator himself? The one who CREATED THE EVIL WE SEE. You say it is not how it was "planned" or "originally designed", but you cannot escape the fact that He is all-knowing and could have created things in a different way with a different outcome, but He didn't. So it is what it is, is kind of my perspective. But it makes believing in God's goodness a challenge for sure.

There is no perfect and pat answer to the “mystery of evil” as it’s been called, or the problem of evil. Our catechism has this to say, FWIW:

272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." It is in Christ's Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth "the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe".

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery and that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion". The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

God in the flesh experienced not only life in this world as we do but the extremes of humiliation and suffering at the hands of His own creation driven by man’s preference for darkness over light. We are informed and convinced by all that Jesus said and did-all that He is-that love and goodness and order are foundational to this universe, despite it being temporarily messy, for a time, for His purposes.