Communion

[Adammi]

Or mabe Jesus was celebrating passover in a new was as He was now to be the passover Lamb. He was the lamb that would die and then rise again.

The Greek word for "leaven" is zume

The Greek for what we read as "unleavened bread" is azumos which is translated more properly as "unleavened" with out the word "bread."

When an author wishes to be specific about the type of "bread" in any incident, he uses azumos. That is, the emphasis is on "unleavened", and not on bread, e.g., I Corinthians 5:8.

The "bread" used at the Last Supper is the more generic Greek artos Hebrew lechem. In fact, Psalm 41:9 which describes a normal meal is used as a prophecy of this supper.

The conclusion drawn from these scriptures is that the last Supper was just that, a normal meal served with leavened bread.

So you don't believe that Jesus was Jewish?

 

[Adammi]

Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. Being Jewish, not only would he not have eaten any yeast at the last supper but Jesus didn't eat ANY leaven the entire last week of his life.
[BIBLE]Leviticus 23:6[/BIBLE]

 

[Christina M]

There are people who receive from God, even when they have prayed erroneously because of their level of maturity in Jesus and God is a merciful God. This does not mean that we will continue to receive if we refuse to grow in Him and be obedient to his instructions. Milk serves babies well, but don't try to survive on it as an adult.

Well, I am not sure how my daughter would feel being told she prayed 'erroneously'. She had faith and she was healed!


Please don't force your legalism down others throats, Prosperity.

 

[Prosperity]

Need I say more?

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than it was the day of Passover and the Passover meal was prepared.

How does this change the possibility that Jesus used unleavened bread.

Jesus was not bound by the law, he was the fulfillment the law. I'm undecided as to whether Jesus used leavened or unleavened bread, but I'm pretty certain that after Jesus rose from the dead that the law was fulfilled and we should now use unleavened bread because the law has been fulfilled and in this instance unleavened bread is a sign of a risen Christ, not a dead Christ.

Yes, Jesus came as a Jew, but he was the fulfillment of the law, he was not bound by the law anymore than he was bound by physical law. The blood covenant we now have with God is more excellent than the blood covenant of the Old Testament and I believe that leavened bread is to be used as a sign of our more excellent covenant.

The blood of animals was used to celebrated the Passover in the Old Testament and yet Jesus used wine to celebrate the Passover at, what we call, the last supper. He said that the wine was his blood, not the blood of animals. He said that the breadwas his body, a body filled with the lifeof God, not dead bread. As wine was substituted for the blood of animals, I believe that He substituted leavened bread for unleavened bread. I believe he was celebrating a more excellent Passover because he was the Passover Lamb. I think that there are some word studies that beat this out. I've provided one of them on this thread.

 

[Prosperity]

Well, I am not sure how my daughter would feel being told she prayed 'erroneously'. She had faith and she was healed!

Please don't force your legalism down others throats, Prosperity.

With respect, your daughter's feelings have nothing to do with the truth of God's word.

I'm not forcing anything down your throat, much less legalism. If you are ofended, you are always free to visit another thread.

I'm simply exploring exactly what is the best way to take communion, based on how Jesus took communion and wants us to take communion. It is no different than exploring the best ay to pray.

God answers many prayers that aren't exactly in line with his word, because he has mercy on us when we are babes just as we have mercy on our children.

Because we have a prayer answered doesn't mean that we got God' best or that God will continue to answer the same prayer if we refuse to grow in knowledge of his will in our lives.

Do you think that healingis the only thing that is available to us through communon?

My original questions were:

Why do we take communion?
How do (should) we do communion?
How often do (should) we do communion?
What do (should) we get out of taking communion?

 

[Christina M]

Man, chill out.

There sure seems to be a chip on your shoulder, Prosperity.

(To me 'prosperity' means FREEDOM in Christ, not more legalism and bondage.)

 

[Adammi]

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than it was the day of Passover and the Passover meal was prepared.

How does this change the possibility that Jesus used unleavened bread.

Jesus was not bound by the law, he was the fulfillment the law. I'm undecided as to whether Jesus used leavened or unleavened bread, but I'm pretty certain that after Jesus rose from the dead that the law was fulfilled and we should now use unleavened bread because the law has been fulfilled and in this instance unleavened bread is a sign of a risen Christ, not a dead Christ.

Yes, Jesus came as a Jew, but he was the fulfillment of the law, he was not bound by the law anymore than he was bound by physical law. The blood covenant we now have with God is more excellent than the blood covenant of the Old Testament and I believe that leavened bread is to be used as a sign of our more excellent covenant.

The blood of animals was used to celebrated the Passover in the Old Testament and yet Jesus used wine to celebrate the Passover at, what we call, the last supper. He said that the wine was his blood, not the blood of animals. He said that the breadwas his body, a body filled with the lifeof God, not dead bread. As wine was substituted for the blood of animals, I believe that He substituted leavened bread for unleavened bread. I believe he was celebrating a more excellent Passover because he was the Passover Lamb. I think that there are some word studies that beat this out. I've provided one of them on this thread.

Well, I'm sorry if I was sounding a bit harsh, I shouldn't have come across in the way that I did.
I don't think it makes much difference if you use leavened or unleavened bread, but still I think it is pushing it to say that Jesus used leavened bread when he established Holy Communion.
Jesus was not bound by the law but he put himself under the law to liberate us from the law, correct?

 

[Adammi]

Why do we take communion?

To re-member the death of Christ

How do (should) we do communion?

Worthily

How often do (should) we do communion?

I prefer daily.

What do (should) we get out of taking communion?

Jesus.

BTW - I really admire you Prosperity, in that you have done a lot of thinking about this. Most people give little thought to Communion when it is one of the greatest things that we, as Christians, can do. There are few people who devote much time to this Sacrament.

Do you believe in the transubstantiation? I don't quite believe in it, but I do believe in the Real Presence.

 

[Prosperity]

Man, chill out.

There sure seems to be a chip on your shoulder, Prosperity.

(To me 'prosperity' means FREEDOM in Christ, not more legalism and bondage.)

I'm at peace. I'm not the one concerned about my children's feelings about this conversation or accusing someone of being legalistic. I'm just exploring what I believe and you seem to think I'm doing something to you. I apologize if I offended you. Like I said, if you find this discussion repugnant, then you are free to find or start another thread.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

Jesus followed the Law, and when He celebrated the Passover Feast I have no doubt He did it within the Law, which meant unleavened bread. Does that mean we should use it today? No, I believe it's your heart the Lord looks at, not your bread.

 

[Prosperity]

Why do we take communion? To re-member the death of Christ

I agree with you. Here are some other reasons:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life. (John 6:54)
Jesus will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (John 6:56)
the one who feeds on me will live because of me. (John 6:57)
he who feeds on this bread will live forever. (John 6:58)

How do (should) we do communion? Worthily

Agreed

I also believe that that to drink the cup unworthily simply means that if we take communion without discerning the benefits that the body and blood of Jesus make available to us, then we are taking communion unworthily. Some believe that you shouldn't take communion if you have sin in your life. I say that if you can get the sin out of our life without the blood of Jesus, then you don't need to take communion.

How often do (should) we do communion? I prefer daily.

This is my goal too.

What do (should) we get out of taking communion? Jesus.

Which included all of his benefits that his blood, suffering, death, burrial, and reserection and word has made available to us.

BTW - I really admire you Prosperity, in that you have done a lot of thinking about this. Most people give little thought to Communion when it is one of the greatest things that we, as Christians, can do. There are few people who devote much time to this Sacrament.

I appreciate the fact that you see that what I'm doing is mediutating on communion and have been doing do for days now.

Do you believe in the transubstantiation? I don't quite believe in it, but I do believe in the Real Presence.

Transubstantiation defined:

"Transubstantiation is generally understood to refer to the belief that at the "moment" of Consecration, the elements (or "gifts" as they are termed for liturgical purposes) of bread and wine are transformed (literally trans-substance-iated) into the actual Body and Blood of Christ."

Not the way that I understand the use of the term Transubstantiation.

I don't believe that the bread and wine are transforme in any way.

I beleive that when the are blessed, in the name of Jesus, that that they become a tool by which God injects the bllod and body of Jesus into us.

Jesus said that this is my body (bread) and my blood (wine). He stated this very literally. I personally believe that the spiritual essence of Jesus blood and body are ushered into us by eating the bread and drinking the wine. In other words the bread and wine contain the actual body and blood of Jesus, even though we can't physically discern this. If we could see into the spiritual world we would see the reality of this. I believe that when we bless the bread and wine, in the name of Jesus, that the bread and wine ushers the actual blood and body of Jesus into out spirit-man as well as out flesh. It is just like how our physical body is host to our spirit-man. We do not see this because the blood and body of Jesus is where Jesus is at, in what we call the spiritual world, but we can see the manifestations of this consumption. We see the results in healing, deliverance and in all promises of Gods that manifest in our lives. It also goes hand in hand with the verse that says we are seated with Christ in Heavenly places.

I appreciate the depth of our conversation. The deep calls to the deep.

Coments are welcome.

 

[Christina M]

Jesus followed the Law, and when He celebrated the Passover Feast I have no doubt He did it within the Law, which meant unleavened bread. Does that mean we should use it today? No, I believe it's your heart the Lord looks at, not your bread.

Ditto.

Deep calls unto deep..................the deep regions of the heart, not the law.

 

[Prosperity]

Ditto.

Deep calls unto deep..................the deep regions of the heart, not the law.

Are you sure that you wouldn't be more comfortable somewhere else?

You are obviously don't understand the nature or content of my posts and are antagonized by the course of this conversation to the point of making personal attacks. Why continue to make yourself miserable. There are many interesting threads here. Why not start your own so you can frame the discussion the way you choose?

Say hello to you beautiful daughter for me. I hope God blesses you both with all blessings.

 

[Father Rick]

Not the way that I understand the use of the term Transubstantiation.

I don't believe that the bread and wine are transforme in any way.

I beleive that when the are blessed, in the name of Jesus, that that they become a tool by which God injects the bllod and body of Jesus into us.

Jesus said that this is my body (bread) and my blood (wine). He stated this very literally. I personally believe that the spiritual essence of Jesus blood and body are ushered into us by eating the bread and drinking the wine. In other words the bread and wine contain the actual body and blood of Jesus, even though we can't physically discern this. If we could see into the spiritual world we would see the reality of this. I believe that when we bless the bread and wine, in the name of Jesus, that the bread and wine ushers the actual blood and body of Jesus into out spirit-man as well as out flesh. It is just like how our physical body is host to our spirit-man. We do not see this because the blood and body of Jesus is where Jesus is at, in what we call the spiritual world, but we can see the manifestations of this consumption. We see the results in healing, deliverance and in all promises of Gods that manifest in our lives. It also goes hand in hand with the verse that says we are seated with Christ in Heavenly places.

I appreciate the depth of our conversation. The deep calls to the deep.

Coments are welcome.

Sounds like your view is more in line with consubstantiation.

 

[Prosperity]

Sounds like your view is more in line with consubstantiation.

It sounds close, but I don't think it the exact same thought I'm endeavoring to convey.

Consubstantiation: It means an inclusion of one substance in another where the body and blood of Christ co-exist in the elements of the Supper. It suggests that a third substance is formed. The body and blood of Christ are "in, with, and under" the elements. There is no permanent relationship with the elements. Instead, the association is limited to the sacramental action. The transformation is effected by the Word of God and not by a priest.

Let me attempt to define my thinking. My, as yet unidentified term, means an inclusion of one substance in another, specifically the blood and body of Christ are in spiritually seeded in the unleavened bread and wine communion elements, when the element are blessed in the name of Jesus. The body and blood of Christ are in the same dimension that our spirit-man and Jesus are in, while the actual bread and wine are in what we know as our physical universe. The blood and body of Jesus have the same relationship to the bread and wine as our spirit-man has to our body. When our flesh dies, our spirit-man, complete with our soul, is released from this physical universe. Likewise, when we consume the blessed bread and wine, in faith, Jesus' blood and body are released into our spirit and flesh. Both our spirit and flesh derive Godly benefits form this release.

Can you think of a word that fits the above paragraph?

 

[Christina M]

Are you sure that you wouldn't be more comfortable somewhere else?

You are obviously don't understand the nature or content of my posts and are antagonized by the course of this conversation to the point of making personal attacks. Why continue to make yourself miserable. There are many interesting threads here. Why not start your own so you can frame the discussion the way you choose?

Say hello to you beautiful daughter for me. I hope God blesses you both with all blessings.

I posted a great story of the power of God through communion and you continue to ridicule me.

It is bad enough we WOFers have to take the crud we get served against us on the P/C forum. THIS is supposed to be a safe zone for us.

You have changed that by your rudeness.

Yes! I do not have to post on 'Your' thread. But you are hurting a lot of people with your legalism and someone needs to call you one it.

 

[Prosperity]

How does Substantive-Spiritual-Trans-Dimensionalization-Transfer (S2TDT) sound?

There must be a better choice of words than the above phrase. LOL

Help!

 

[Prosperity]

I posted a great story of the power of God through communion and you continue to ridicule me.

Yes you gave a great testimony. I have no problem with you story, just you application of your experience regarding thrust of this conversation.

It is bad enough we WOFers have to take the crud we get served against us on the P/C forum. THIS is supposed to be a safe zone for us.

I've said nothing that conflicts with the WOF mesage.

You have changed that by your rudeness.

I have not been rude at all. I simply asked you a genuine question, to which you elected to respond to out of you emotions rather than the word.

Yes! I do not have to post on 'Your' thread. But you are hurting a lot of people with your legalism and someone needs to call you one it.

I'm hurting no one. You should quit falsely accusing me of something I'm simply not doing.

I conferred a blessing on you and your child and you've responded with an accusation.

I'm sorry that you are so bitter with me. I guess that you should just forgive me and find a thread that you are at peace with. This would seem you best course of action. It is better than trying to pick a fight with me, because I won't fight with you, accuse you or insult you.

May the lord bless you and keep you and you daughter and bless you with all spiritual blessings.

Amen!

 

[Trish1947]

Why must we make it so hard? Jesus said do this in rememberance of me. With your heart decerne the offering of the Lords blood and body...not turn it into some hocus pocus mind trip to get you to agree with Jesus about His sacrifice.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

Why must we make it so hard? Jesus said do this in rememberance of me. With your heart decerne the offering of the Lords blood and body...not turn it into some hocus pocus mind trip to get you to agree with Jesus about His sacrifice.

That's it, isn't it? To take it in a worthily manner, as the Word says, in rememberance of Him. Doesn't matter what you use, because that's not the point-if it was, Yeshua would have instructed us on the "proper" elements, and the exact way. It is not the body and blood of Christ, He is sitting at the right hand of the Father in the Kingdom, it is a reminder.