Circumcision

[mercy1061]

Correct. The entire premise of Bilateral Ecclesiology is separating Jews and gentiles, and it claims that this is what Sha'ul really meant by "one in Mashiakh!" Kinser's interpretation is the exact OPPOSITE of what Sha'ul actually taught, it is what he was so vehemently opposed to, and dedicated his life to combatting! In essence, Sha'ul was fighting against the eighteen measures of Shammai, which halakhically separated Jews and gentiles in all manners of everyday affairs, and especially in religious affairs.

For instance:

(Gal 5:2-3 Complete Jewish Bible)
Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah!

Sha'ul is referring to the eighteen measures of Shammai when he says "obligated to observe the entire Torah!" Just imagine the implications for the gentile who has just come to faith in Yeshua. After he undergoes the painful [and dangerous at that time] procedure of brit milah, he is halakhically required to separate himself from his gentile family and friends. He is now eligible for all manner of Roman persecution, including the taxation imparted to all Jews, which in many cases would impoverish them. Talk about a yoke! Talk about a burden one is unable to bear!

Well if the gentiles keep the whole torah, without addition or subtration, Yeshua would give them rest. Of couse pharisee Shaul get no credit for circumcising Timothy but who would circumcise all of these thousands of gentiles getting saved? Pharisee Shaul was never opposed to torah kingdom law, that is, circumcision on the 8th day. The torah not only should be preached, but it also should be practiced. Were the apostles suppose to circumcise all of the gentiles?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Well if the gentiles keep the whole torah, without addition or subtration, Yeshua would give them rest. Of couse pharisee Shaul get no credit for circumcising Timothy but who would circumcise all of these thousands of gentiles getting saved? Pharisee Shaul was never opposed to torah kingdom law, that is, circumcision on the 8th day. The torah not only should be preached, but it also should be practiced. Were the apostles suppose to circumcise all of the gentiles?

No the Apostle's ruled against circumcision of Gentiles , Acts 15. Paul circumcised Timothy because his mother was Jewish.

If Gentiles become Israel (circumcision) then it would be against what the prophets wrote pertaining to the Nations.

 

[Lulav]

No the Apostle's ruled against circumcision of Gentiles , Acts 15. Paul circumcised Timothy because his mother was Jewish.

If Gentiles become Israel (circumcision) then it would be against what the prophets wrote pertaining to the Nations.

Marc, do you think paying tribute to the creator so you can live and obeying him are the same thing?

 

[visionary]

No the Apostle's ruled against circumcision of Gentiles , Acts 15. Paul circumcised Timothy because his mother was Jewish.

If Gentiles become Israel (circumcision) then it would be against what the prophets wrote pertaining to the Nations.

Circumcision is not making Gentiles Jews.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Circumcision is not making Gentiles Jews.

Sure it does. There were converts in the NT.

 

[visionary]

Sure it does. There were converts in the NT.

Circumcision doesn't make one a part of Israel. There is much more than that one deed to make one a member of either the Jewish or Israeli members.

 

[Lulav]

Marc, why won't you answer a simple, direct question?

 

[mercy1061]

No the Apostle's ruled against circumcision of Gentiles , Acts 15. Paul circumcised Timothy because his mother was Jewish.

If Gentiles become Israel (circumcision) then it would be against what the prophets wrote pertaining to the Nations.

Why did Pharisee Shaul circumcise Timothy? Of course Acts 15 is before Acts 16 when Pharisee Shaul circumcised Timothy; you say the apostles ruled against the everlasting covenant established by Abraham in Isaac, that is circumcison on the 8th day, remember Abraham circumcised every male in his household including his gentile slaves;

Acts 16
Sha’ul came down to Derbe and went on to Lystra, where there lived a talmid named Timothy. He was the son of a Jewish woman who had come to trust, and a Greek father. 2 All the brothers in Lystra and Iconium spoke well of Timothy. 3 Sha’ul wanted Timothy to accompany him; so he took him and did a b’rit-milah, because of the Jews living in those areas; for they all knew that his father had been a Greek.
4 As they went on through the towns, they delivered to the people the decisions reached by the emissaries and the elders in Yerushalayim for them to observe. 5 Accordingly, the congregations were strengthened in the faith and increased in number day by day.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, why won't you answer a simple, direct question?

I did. There are converts in the NT.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Why did Pharisee Shaul circumcise Timothy? Of course Acts 15 is before Acts 16 when Pharisee Shaul circumcised Timothy; you say the apostles ruled against the everlasting covenant established by Abraham in Isaac, that is circumcison on the 8th day, remember Abraham circumcised every male in his household including his gentile slaves;

Acts 16
Sha’ul came down to Derbe and went on to Lystra, where there lived a talmid named Timothy. He was the son of a Jewish woman who had come to trust, and a Greek father. 2 All the brothers in Lystra and Iconium spoke well of Timothy. 3 Sha’ul wanted Timothy to accompany him; so he took him and did a b’rit-milah, because of the Jews living in those areas; for they all knew that his father had been a Greek.
4 As they went on through the towns, they delivered to the people the decisions reached by the emissaries and the elders in Yerushalayim for them to observe. 5 Accordingly, the congregations were strengthened in the faith and increased in number day by day.

Because Timothy 'a mother was Jewish which means Timothy is Jewish.

Circumcision was given, as is evidenced by the Torah, during the Abrahamic Covenant with Israel, to rise with Isaac, whom the Covenant would be maintained with, as an everlasting pact between God and Israel. (Gen. 17:19-21) The fact that all males had to be circumcised, Ishmael and all the other servants of Abraham, was because they were part of Abraham's household. The commandment did not apply to them in particular but to Abraham to circumcise them. The difference between the descendants of Isaac and the other descendants of Abraham is that circumcision with Isaac was perpetual throughout his descendants. For the other descendants of Abraham, it was only during the time that they were under Abraham's household. Therefore, their circumcision was not a commandment upon them but upon Abraham only, to circumcise them.

 

[mercy1061]

Sure it does. There were converts in the NT.

Like you say, Timothy mother was jewish, but his father was greek. Did you know Timothy was a follower of Yeshua BEFORE he was circumcised? According to jewish law, if the mother is jewish, the son is jewish, yet Timothy remained uncircumcised until Shaul, maybe because his father was greek. How could Timothy be considered jewish, if he is uncircumcised beyond the 8th day?

 

[visionary]

Like you say, Timothy mother was jewish, but his father was greek. Did you know Timothy was a follower of Yeshua BEFORE he was circumcised? According to jewish law, if the mother is jewish, the son is jewish, yet Timothy remained uncircumcised until Shaul, maybe because his father was greek. How could Timothy be considered jewish, if he is uncircumcised beyond the 8th day?

Timothy was fortunate that in his day, Messianic Judaism was still a part of the Jewish faith.

 

[mercy1061]

Because Timothy 'a mother was Jewish which means Timothy is Jewish.

Circumcision was given, as is evidenced by the Torah, during the Abrahamic Covenant with Israel, to rise with Isaac, whom the Covenant would be maintained with, as an everlasting pact between God and Israel. (Gen. 17:19-21) The fact that all males had to be circumcised, Ishmael and all the other servants of Abraham, was because they were part of Abraham's household. The commandment did not apply to them in particular but to Abraham to circumcise them. The difference between the descendants of Isaac and the other descendants of Abraham is that circumcision with Isaac was perpetual throughout his descendants. For the other descendants of Abraham, it was only during the time that they were under Abraham's household. Therefore, their circumcision was not a commandment upon them but upon Abraham only, to circumcise them.

Did Timothy or his jewish mother break the covenant BEFORE pharisee Shaul because his mother was jewish? Did Titus break this covenant? "Every male among you is to be circumcised" means every male among you is to be circumcised. It is interesting that G-d gave this everlasting covenant to Abraham who was a uncircumcised gentile.



9 God said to Avraham, “As for you, you are to keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you, generation after generation. 10 Here is my covenant, which you are to keep, between me and you, along with your descendants after you: every male among you is to be circumcised. 11 You are to be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; this will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 Generation after generation, every male among you who is eight days old is to be circumcised, including slaves born within your household and those bought from a foreigner not descended from you. 13 The slave born in your house and the person bought with your money must be circumcised; thus my covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who will not let himself be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin — that person will be cut off from his people, because he has broken my covenant.”

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Did Timothy or his jewish mother break the covenant BEFORE pharisee Shaul because his mother was jewish? Did Titus break this covenant? "Every male among you is to be circumcised" means every male among you is to be circumcised. It is interesting that G-d gave this everlasting covenant to Abraham who was a uncircumcised gentile.



9 God said to Avraham, “As for you, you are to keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you, generation after generation. 10 Here is my covenant, which you are to keep, between me and you, along with your descendants after you: every male among you is to be circumcised. 11 You are to be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; this will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 Generation after generation, every male among you who is eight days old is to be circumcised, including slaves born within your household and those bought from a foreigner not descended from you. 13 The slave born in your house and the person bought with your money must be circumcised; thus my covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who will not let himself be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin — that person will be cut off from his people, because he has broken my covenant.”

Titus wasn't in the same situation as Timothy.

Timothy mom broke the covenant as per the Abrahamic covenant. Gentiles like Titus can't break a covenant they were never part of. God was going to kill Moses.

 

[mercy1061]

Titus wasn't in the same situation as Timothy.

Timothy mom broke the covenant as per the Abrahamic covenant.

Abraham's covenant says again,

"EVERY MALE AMONG YOU IS TO BE CIRCUMCISED"

The "torah kingdom law" did not say, you only have to circumcise males among you only if their mother is jewish. Timothy was among pharisee Shaul; Titus was among pharisee Shaul, pharisee Shaul honors "torah kingdom law". Abraham circumcised every male in his household, not just the males whose mother was jewish! That is why I always say there is a difference between jewish law and "torah kingdom law".

Was Abraham's mother jewish?

 

[mercy1061]

Gentiles like Titus can't break a covenant they were never part of. God was going to kill Moses.

Let me say this again,

ABRAHAM WAS A GENTILE,

so how does "torah kingdom law" not apply to Titus?

Romans 4

9 Now is this blessing for the circumcised only? Or is it also for the uncircumcised? For we say that Avraham’s trust was credited to his account as righteousness; 10 but what state was he in when it was so credited — circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! 11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him, 12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b’rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Let me say this again,

ABRAHAM WAS A GENTILE,

so how does "torah kingdom law" not apply to Titus?

Romans 4

9 Now is this blessing for the circumcised only? Or is it also for the uncircumcised? For we say that Avraham’s trust was credited to his account as righteousness; 10 but what state was he in when it was so credited — circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! 11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him, 12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b’rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.

Because Titus wasn't a child of Israel and Timothy was. Paul circumcised Timothy and didn't circumcise Titus in response the scripture you have cited... To show that he is the father of every uncircumcised person and father of the circumcised.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Therefore if one is not willing to start out becoming a lost sheep of the house of Israel then the Master clearly states that he was not sent to that person, PERIOD.

The lost sheep of the house of Israel refers to the ten tribes of Israel, not gentiles.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

She dances at UMJC conferences and I thought she was also part of a UMJC congregation. Maybe she can chime in.

That would be nice. Shouldn't be talking about the boss in a hearsay manner.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Abraham's covenant says again,

"EVERY MALE AMONG YOU IS TO BE CIRCUMCISED"

The "torah kingdom law" did not say, you only have to circumcise males among you only if their mother is jewish. Timothy was among pharisee Shaul; Titus was among pharisee Shaul, pharisee Shaul honors "torah kingdom law". Abraham circumcised every male in his household, not just the males whose mother was jewish! That is why I always say there is a difference between jewish law and "torah kingdom law".

Was Abraham's mother jewish?

It pertains to the descendants of Abraham>Isaac>Jacob>children of Israel. Doesn't matter if Abraham's mother was Jewish or not.