UMJC to Non-Jews: "First Reject Yeshua - 1

[David Ben Yosef]

If you look at the big picture there is Israel and the Nations. However I don't agree that Jews stay in the Messianic Synagogue and Gentiles stay in the Church. There are many Gentiles in Messianic Jewish congregations.

I would be in line with Bilateral Ecclisiology without the Jews stay in the synagogues and non Jews stay in the Church.

If non Jews become Jews(children of Israel) or think they are Israel then how are the Nations going to bear witness to the arrival of the day when representatives from all the Nations worship the One True God(such as Zech where the Nations come for the Feast of Tabernacles etc) in which the prophets testify and which the Apostle's testified based on the prophets.

I think you got the impression that I advocate Jews and gentiles having the exact same covenantal obligations? I don't. Jews and gentiles being "one in Mashiakh" does not mean that gentiles magically become Jews on some kind of "mystical level." That's just another spinoff of replacement theology, and is not scriptural.

Did you read the paper?

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Hopefully none of us here on CF

I'm confused. Then why post their opinions as if that website had some kind of authority? It's just a website that boasts to offer a bunch of services, but in reality has none of those things. It is not a "halakhic body" at all. Have you browsed the site? From what I can tell, it is one mans own private vision/fantasy, it is not an "organization" at all. Although that is the goal of the site's creator.

Here is the site's "Beit Din" page:

Within the Jewish sect of HaDerech there exists a great need to provide disciples of Yeshua ben Yoseph mi’Netzaret with an halichic means to convert to orthodox Judaism, and thus be recognized as orthodox Jewish converts by the global body of believers, and all Israel, without having to deny that Yeshua is the Messiah.
*[This of course, is absolutely impossible, and will NEVER become reality]*

In addition, there also exists a great need to build up qualified rabbinic leaders in “Messianic Judaism” with recognized orthodox Jewish smicha. Such smicha should not be given lightly and should meet or exceed current rabbinic qualifications so that believing communities and leaders are not found to be without a solid defense for their identity and responsibilities to Torah. If such a leader is found to be lacking, then free education should be offered to the leader who so chooses to serve HaShem as a rabbi, and such discipleship should be encouraged among all believers.

The orthodox Jewish believers at JerusalemCouncil.org hope to establish a “Messianic Sanhedrin” – a global Torah academy with the aim of establishing a beit din to be a fully functional orthodox Jewish rabbinical court that will be the first of many reproduced worldwide. It is the goal of the Jerusalem Council vision to establish such a Sanhedrin with the most qualified rabbis of our generation, and we ask that those who are interested in helping us establish this service to consider joining us today and turning this dream into a reality.

It is our hope that the establishment of orthodox Jewish battai din made up of believers will help play a small part in HaShem “restoring our judges as in earliest times and our counselors as at first.” If you can help with this goal, we invite you to join us today!

Until the Sanhedrin of the Way is formally instituted, you can find a number of battai din who ascribe to the JerusalemCouncil.org vision on our Knesset page.

The following are considered historical rulings of the former Messianic Sanhedrin, that is, the Jerusalem Council Beit Din:


Rulings Acts 15:23-29 Didache


The following are questions this site has received that current volunteer staff have provided answers to:


Questions Do you give semicha (Rabbinic Ordination)? Is it lawful to save the life of a Gentile on Sabbath?
Rulings Acts 15:23-29 Didache

Have you stopped to consider that you can easily be misleading people? That's dangerous!

 

[visionary]

I'm confused. Then why post their opinions as if that website had some kind of authority? It's just a website that boasts to offer a bunch of services, but in reality has none of those things. It is not a "halakhic body" at all. Have you browsed the site? From what I can tell, it is one mans own private vision/fantasy, it is not an "organization" at all. Although that is the goal of the site's creator.

Here is the site's "Beit Din" page:

Have you stopped to consider that you can easily be misleading people? That's dangerous!

IT is an opinion that some here are trying to promote... Was glad to hear that you do not agree with his statements.

 

[etZion]

If you look at the big picture there is Israel and the Nations. However I don't agree that Jews stay in the Messianic Synagogue and Gentiles stay in the Church. There are many Gentiles in Messianic Jewish congregations.

Two things here, that is not the big picture, and I am glad you don't agree with the UMJC... good news.

I would be in line with Bilateral Ecclisiology without the Jews stay in the synagogues and non Jews stay in the Church.

Then you would no longer be representing BE. BE's validity stands on separating majority of Jews from Gentiles, in order to uphold what they believe to be proper identity distinction. If there is a congregation with even half being gentile, then the distinction is blurred according to these definitions.

If non Jews become Jews(children of Israel) or think they are Israel then how are the Nations going to bear witness to the arrival of the day when representatives from all the Nations worship the One True God(such as Zech where the Nations come for the Feast of Tabernacles etc) in which the prophets testify and which the Apostle's testified based on the prophets.

Gentiles do not become Jews and it is a failed definition to think it is even possible. Second, the national identity of Israel, definitely encompassed gentiles, from covenanted gentiles who were not Jews, from gentiles who resided in the land as well, but were not in covenant...

In Yeshua, it is made clear, that a gentile who trust in Him, is regarded as being added to the family, but as a gentile, and is regarded as being part of the commonwealth of Israel, citizens of God's kingdom, considered son's of Abraham, not Noah. This cannot be said of gentiles who do not trust in Him, a distinction you ignore. There is a difference between the nations who will come and attack Jerusalem and the Jewish people, and those among the nations who trust in the Messiah, yet according to your interpretation there is no difference, which results in a failed understanding of scripture. It fails to recognize the difference between the body of Messiah, Israel and the nations, and how and in what ways they overlap.

So to answer your question, more than likely the ones coming from the nations as representatives baring gifts, will be those who did not take part in the Resurrection, as those from the nations who trust in Messiah will meet Him in the clouds.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

..

 

[mercy1061]

Two things here, that is not the big picture, and I am glad you don't agree with the UMJC... good news.



Then you would no longer be representing BE. BE's validity stands on separating majority of Jews from Gentiles, in order to uphold what they believe to be proper identity distinction. If there is a congregation with even half being gentile, then the distinction is blurred according to these definitions.



Gentiles do not become Jews and it is a failed definition to think it is even possible. Second, the national identity of Israel, definitely encompassed gentiles, from covenanted gentiles who were not Jews, from gentiles who resided in the land as well, but were not in covenant...

In Yeshua, it is made clear, that a gentile who trust in Him, is regarded as being added to the family, but as a gentile, and is regarded as being part of the commonwealth of Israel, citizens of God's kingdom, considered son's of Abraham, not Noah. This cannot be said of gentiles who do not trust in Him, a distinction you ignore. There is a difference between the nations who will come and attack Jerusalem and the Jewish people, and those among the nations who trust in the Messiah, yet according to your interpretation there is no difference, which results in a failed understanding of scripture. It fails to recognize the difference between the body of Messiah, Israel and the nations, and how and in what ways they overlap.

So to answer your question, more than likely the ones coming from the nations as representatives baring gifts, will be those who did not take part in the Resurrection, as those from the nations who trust in Messiah will meet Him in the clouds.

Did you know that not all sons of Abraham are jews? Ishmael is a son of Abraham. Abraham was a prince, Ishmael had sons who would become kings. I don't think faith in Yeshua grants you citizenship in any nation or kingdom.

 

[etZion]

Did you know that not all sons of Abraham are jews? Ishmael is a son of Abraham. Abraham was a prince, Ishmael had sons who would become kings.

Correct. However it was not based according to flesh, but according to promise, this is why Isaac is regarded according to promise and not Ishmael. And this is why gentiles in the Messiah can be considered sons of Abraham, without literally becoming a descendant of Abraham, which is impossible anyways, but because it is according to the promise through the Messiah.

I don't think faith in Yeshua grants you citizenship in any nation or kingdom.

According to Paul it does, in Ephesians 2, he expands on this idea of "son ship + citizenship". The Kingdom of God, spoken of in the Gospels, will literally be a kingdom manifested on this earth, where Messiah will rule a one world government from Israel. Also known as the 1000 year reign. We are told that those who trust in Yeshua are considered sons of the kingdom, they will put on the resurrection and will rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years. There will also be those in the Messianic Kingdom, who will not have put on the resurrection, these are not considered the sons of God, or citizens of the Kingdom, and they will fear the second death...

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Correct. However it was not based according to flesh, but according to promise, this is why Isaac is regarded according to promise and not Ishmael. And this is why gentiles in the Messiah can be considered sons of Abraham, without literally becoming a descendant of Abraham, which is impossible anyways, but because it is according to the promise through the Messiah.



According to Paul it does, in Ephesians 2, he expands on this idea of "son ship + citizenship". The Kingdom of God, spoken of in the Gospels, will literally be a kingdom manifested on this earth, where Messiah will rule a one world government from Israel. Also known as the 1000 year reign. We are told that those who trust in Yeshua are considered sons of the kingdom, they will put on the resurrection and will rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years. There will also be those in the Messianic Kingdom, who will not have put on the resurrection, these are not considered the sons of God, or citizens of the Kingdom, and they will fear the second death...

The only people who will rule and reign with the Messiah in the Messianic age are overcomers, and their name is Israel.

Everyone who has overcame in the history of mankind will give birth on the Firstfruits. Everyone of them are virgins giving birth.


Here are the virgins giving birth on First fruits, and this is the order of things, Christ, the first fruit, and everyone in Christ at his coming, that is to say, everyone who has received the mark in their foreheads and right hands who are considered to be true Israel.

1st Cor 15

Each in his turn.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.



These 144,000 are the only ones who obtain the reward of ruling and reigning in the first resurrection, if you are not among them, you do not get resurrected in the first resurrection, you do not rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

If you do not obtain the first resurrection then you wait the horrible terrifying day of decision when your fate will be decided in the second resurrection.

The people who obtain the reward of first resurrection have no fear of the second death because they overcame and became new creatures who were virgins and gave birth to their children on the day of birth.

Salvation is for suckers, obtaining the rewards of resurrection, ruling and reigning is like running a race where not everyone wins.

In the day of fire, all people will be judged by their works and what they have built, if their works are burned, they suffer great loss, but they themselves are saved, but only as one who goes through a fire.

In the last day the flames comes, some will stand in the flames while other will burn.

The ones who are able to stand within the flames are overcomers and called,'' Israel.''

If a person does not become true Israel, he will in no way gain the reward of resurrection.

 

[etZion]

The only people who will rule and reign with the Messiah in the Messianic age are overcomers, and their name is Israel.

Everyone who has overcame in the history of mankind will give birth on the Firstfruits. Everyone of them are virgins giving birth.


Here are the virgins giving birth on First fruits, and this is the order of things, Christ, the first fruit, and everyone in Christ at his coming, that is to say, everyone who has received the mark in their foreheads and right hands who are considered to be true Israel.

1st Cor 15

Each in his turn.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.



These 144,000 are the only ones who obtain the reward of ruling and reigning in the first resurrection, if you are not among them, you do not get resurrected in the first resurrection, you do not rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

If you do not obtain the first resurrection then you wait the horrible terrifying day of decision when your fate will be decided in the second resurrection.

The people who obtain the reward of first resurrection have no fear of the second death because they overcame and became new creatures who were virgins and gave birth to their children on the day of birth.

Salvation is for suckers, obtaining the rewards of resurrection, ruling and reigning is like running a race where not everyone wins.

In the day of fire, all people will be judged by their works and what they have built, if their works are burned, they suffer great loss, but they themselves are saved, but only as one who goes through a fire.

In the last day the flames comes, some will stand in the flames while other will burn.

The ones who are able to stand within the flames are overcomers and called,'' Israel.''

If a person does not become true Israel, he will in no way gain the reward of resurrection.

Do you accept Paul as an Apostle? Most agree that the resurrection is for all who trust in the Messiah, not just the 144,000, see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Honestly, I have no idea how you come to your conclusions, actually I am not even sure I understand your conclusion?

 

[mercy1061]

Correct. However it was not based according to flesh, but according to promise, this is why Isaac is regarded according to promise and not Ishmael. And this is why gentiles in the Messiah can be considered sons of Abraham, without literally becoming a descendant of Abraham, which is impossible anyways, but because it is according to the promise through the Messiah.

Yet Ishmael is Abraham's firstborn; shall you deny him his birthright?

Gen 21

12 But God said to Avraham, “Don’t be distressed because of the boy and your slave-girl. Listen to everything Sarah says to you, because it is your descendants through Yitz’chak who will be counted. 13 But I will also make a nation from the son of the slave-girl, since he is descended from you.”


Which is Abraham's descendent (that is during Gen 21) Isaac or Ishmael? G-d made it clear that Abraham's posterity would be counted in Isaac, speaking of the future, not then or now, which pharisee Shaul indicates in his letters. This is what I called "torah kingdom law"; no modern day rabbi will teach you this.

According to Paul it does, in Ephesians 2, he expands on this idea of "son ship + citizenship". The Kingdom of God, spoken of in the Gospels, will literally be a kingdom manifested on this earth, where Messiah will rule a one world government from Israel. Also known as the 1000 year reign. We are told that those who trust in Yeshua are considered sons of the kingdom, they will put on the resurrection and will rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years. There will also be those in the Messianic Kingdom, who will not have put on the resurrection, these are not considered the sons of God, or citizens of the Kingdom, and they will fear the second death...

Be honest, please don't lie, does becoming a follower of Yeshua make you a citizen of Israel? So pharisee Shaul can not at all be saying what you think he is saying. When Solomon's temple was built did not heathen nations help build this great temple? Pharisee Shaul is not making citizens of Israel from gentiles, he is promoting the rebuilding of the temple. Another lesson from "torah kingdom law".

Eph 2
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Do you accept Paul as an Apostle? Most agree that the resurrection is for all who trust in the Messiah, not just the 144,000, see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Honestly, I have no idea how you come to your conclusions, actually I am not even sure I understand your conclusion?

I believe Paul and all the new testament but it is not as if we have not been warned sorely, over, and over, and over, and over.


The conclusion is in all the stories of the bible, and Jesus talked of it over and over, Paul also talked of it.

Paul is speaking of the first resurrection when he says that the works of all men will be judged in the fire, and he shows that some people burn along with their works, they are only saved, they do not stand in the flames. The coming burning day of the Lord is spoken in many places, and it will test all people who have ever lived.


Jesus speaks of the differences in The unaware servant waiting upon his master, and that servant is cut in half, it means that the servant was saved, but he is separated from having a body.


The majority will cry out,'' But Lord, we did miracles in your name.''
And they will hear,'' I never knew you, depart into the outer court of darkness, you workers of iniquity.''


Again, the kingdom of heaven is like ten virgins, where the majority are told the truth, and then they become desperate because they know there is not enough time to do what they should have been doing all along, and so they have no extra vessel, no extra oil.


There are so many places that show the difference, there is a wedding coming, and many people will come into the kingdom when they are asked,'' How did you come in here without a wedding garment?''

They are cast out.

The great multitudes will think they have it made, they will all come up to sit in the desired seats next to Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob.

But escorts will come and take them by the hand and drag them out of the kingdom into the court of darkness where they will weep and gnash their teeth because they did not know they were in a race, they thought that they were going to judge the 12 tribes of Israel when instead, they will wait on their decision in the second death.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

IT is an opinion that some here are trying to promote... Was glad to hear that you do not agree with his statements.

Ok, so let me get this straight. You posted an official looking document from some hole in the wall website who delusionally considers itself some kind of halachically governing body, who you happen to disagree with anyway, but gave no explanation at all as to your position on the document, or the website. Unbelievable!

You sure are a hard one to figure out, Visionary.

 

[visionary]

Ok, so let me get this straight. You posted an official looking document from some hole in the wall website who delusionally considers itself some kind of halachically governing body, who you happen to disagree with anyway, but gave no explanation at all as to your position on the document, or the website. Unbelievable!

You sure are a hard one to figure out, Visionary.

The post was a fishing expedition, and look what I caught.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

The post was a fishing expedition

Sorry, not buying it.

and look what I caught.

Someone calling you out. Which, by the way, you said that you were happy to see I don't agree with the document.

 

[visionary]

Sorry, not buying it.

Someone calling you out. Which, by the way, you said that you were happy to see I don't agree with the document.

Yes, I am....

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Then you would no longer be representing BE. BE's validity stands on separating majority of Jews from Gentiles, in order to uphold what they believe to be proper identity distinction.

Correct. The entire premise of Bilateral Ecclesiology is separating Jews and gentiles, and it claims that this is what Sha'ul really meant by "one in Mashiakh!" Kinser's interpretation is the exact OPPOSITE of what Sha'ul actually taught, it is what he was so vehemently opposed to, and dedicated his life to combatting! In essence, Sha'ul was fighting against the eighteen measures of Shammai, which halakhically separated Jews and gentiles in all manners of everyday affairs, and especially in religious affairs.

For instance:

(Gal 5:2-3 Complete Jewish Bible)
Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah!

Sha'ul is referring to the eighteen measures of Shammai when he says "obligated to observe the entire Torah!" Just imagine the implications for the gentile who has just come to faith in Yeshua. After he undergoes the painful [and dangerous at that time] procedure of brit milah, he is halakhically required to separate himself from his gentile family and friends. He is now eligible for all manner of Roman persecution, including the taxation imparted to all Jews, which in many cases would impoverish them. Talk about a yoke! Talk about a burden one is unable to bear!

 

[Yoseft]

A quote from Rudolph...



As it is written;

1 Kings 8:43

…and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Me....
I shall run..
Paul Wilbur ~ Your Great Name ~ We Will Run & Ani Ma'amin.avi - YouTube

 

[mercy1061]

Me....
I shall run..
Paul Wilbur ~ Your Great Name ~ We Will Run & Ani Ma'amin.avi - YouTube

The temple was being finished built and/or completed in 1 kings 8. Of course the ark of the covenant with the two tablets of stone were inside. The gentiles must be willing to be taught torah.

 

[visionary]

Just to lighten the thread a little, and bring joy to fellow believer's hearts... here are the things that brought this Orthodox Jewish woman to her faith in Yeshua... Prayer, Study, and what her Rabbi said. An Orthodox Woman Finds Yeshua in the Tenakh | Jewish Voice Ministries International