Church and State

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CelticRebel

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On a side note I noticed a thread started on the baptist sects subforum about Constantine. These guys are some of the most delusional people ever, huh? Atleast they give me plenty of ammunition to rip them further. Never did I think of all things, that Constantine who died around 340 AD was the reason for the western europeans insatiable apetite for the inquisitions and protestant killing machines of the 1600's.

Who knows, maybe we can blame Alexander the Great for WW2 and King Nebuchadnezzer's policies for the rise of the Ayatollahs of Iran in 1979. And of course Jesus is to blame for Hitler. I think its time someone took away the baptistas sects' KJV and actually give them a passport so they can travel and become enlightened.

Constantine united church and state. And the legacy of that is the persecution, torture, and murder done by the united state churches -- Catholic and Protestant -- which denied religious liberty and operated by compulsion.

Your desire to "rip" people is most un-Christlike, especially since you're wrong. And so is your air of contemptuous superiority.
 
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CelticRebel

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This is manifestly not true. What on earth do you think Rome was persecuting in those first three centuries?

The best answer I can offer to your idea is from a Catholic - and so, he (logically enough) identifies the Church as the Catholic Church. But as this deals with the first millennium, it can equally be referred to as the Orthodox Church. So I replace the word "Catholic" with "Orthodox" and find no change in meaning.

The entire chapter (chapter 2) should be read for completeness of thought, but here is an excerpt that shows Belloc's razor-like mind and aptitude for history:

"A word as to the constitution of the Church. All men with an historical training know that the Church of the years 200-250 was what I have described it, an organized society under bishops, and, what is more, it is evident that there was a central primacy at Rome as well as local primacies in various other great cities. But what is not so generally emphasized is the way in which Christian society appears to have looked at itself at that time.

The conception which the Catholic Church had of itself in the early third century can, perhaps, best be approached by pointing out that if we use the word "Christianity" we are unhistorical. "Christianity" is a term in the mouth and upon the pen of the post-Reformation writer; it connotes an opinion or a theory; a point of view; an idea. The Christians of the time of which I speak had no such conception. Upon the contrary, they were attached to its very antithesis. They were attached to the conception of a thing: of an organized body instituted for a definite end, disciplined in a definite way, and remarkable for the possession of definite and concrete doctrine. One can talk, in speaking of the first three centuries, of stoic_ism_, or epicurean_ism_, or neoplaton_ism_; but one cannot talk of "Christian_ism_" or "Christ_ism_." Indeed, no one has been so ignorant or unhistorical as to attempt those phrases. But the current phrase "Christianity," used by moderns as identical with the Christian body in the third century, is intellectually the equivalent of "Christianism" or "Christism;" and, I repeat, it connotes a grossly unhistorical idea; it connotes something historically false; something that never existed.

Let me give an example of what I mean:

Four men will be sitting as guests of a fifth in a private house in Carthage in the year 225. They are all men of culture; all possessed of the two languages, Greek and Latin, well-read and interested in the problems and half-solutions of their skeptical time. One will profess himself Materialist, and will find another to agree with him; there is no personal God, certain moral duties must be recognized by men for such and such utilitarian reasons, and so forth. He finds support.

The host is not of that opinion; he has been profoundly influenced by certain "mysteries" into which he has been "initiated:" That is, symbolical plays showing the fate of the soul and performed in high seclusion before members of a society sworn to secrecy. He has come to feel a spiritual life as the natural life round him. He has curiously followed, and often paid at high expense, the services of necromancers; he believes that in an "initiation" which he experienced in his youth, and during the secret and most vivid drama or "mystery" in which he then took part, he actually came in contact with the spiritual world. Such men were not uncommon. The declining society of the time was already turning to influences of that type.

The host's conviction, his awed and reticent attitude towards such things, impress his guests. One of the guests, however, a simple, solid kind of man, not drawn to such vagaries, says that he has been reading with great interest the literature of the Christians. He is in admiration of the traditional figure of the Founder of their Church. He quotes certain phrases, especially from the four orthodox Gospels. They move him to eloquence, and their poignancy and illuminative power have an effect upon his friends. He ends by saying: "For my part, I have come to make it a sort of rule to act as this Man Christ would have had me act. He seems to me to have led the most perfect life I ever read of, and the practical maxims which are attached to His Name seem to me a sufficient guide to life. That," he will conclude simply, "is the groove into which I have fallen, and I do not think I shall ever leave it."

Let us call the man who has so spoken, Ferreolus. Would Ferreolus have been a Christian? Would the officials of the Roman Empire have called him a Christian? Would he have been in danger of unpopularity where Christians were unpopular? Would Christians have received him among themselves as part of their strict and still somewhat secret society? Would he have counted with any single man of the whole Empire as one of the Christian body?

The answer is most emphatically No.

No Christian in the first three centuries would have held such a man as coming within his view. No imperial officer in the most violent crisis of one of those spasmodic persecutions which the Church had to undergo would have troubled him with a single question. No Christian congregation would have regarded him as in any way connected with their body. Opinion of that sort, "Christism," had no relation to the Church. How far it existed we cannot tell, for it was unimportant. In so far as it existed it would have been on all fours with any one of the vague opinions which floated about the cultured Roman world.

Now it is evident that the term "Christianity" used as a point of view, a mere mental attitude, would include such a man, and it is equally evident that we have only to imagine him to see that he had nothing to do with the Christian religion of that day. For the Christian religion (then as now) was a thing, not a theory. It was expressed in what I have called an organism, and that organism was the Catholic Church."

http://cnqzu.com/library/Philosophy/neoreaction/Hilaire Belloc/Europe and the Faith (HTML).htm

What I said is manifestly true. And what was Rome persecuting? Local bodies of believers, assemblies, otherwise called churches.
 
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CelticRebel

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Gxg, for some reason I am not able to use the quote feature with your posts.

The consensus of scholars is that Munster was an aberrant event in Anabaptism. Anabaptists, Baptists, and Quakers are responsible for giving the Christian world the gift of religious liberty and church-state separation, even benefiting the state-church persecutors.

And I must say this about the erroneous claim, which I have seen on more than one forum, that Zwingli and his movement were Anabaptists. This is not true. Zwingli was in favor of infant baptism, and state-churchism, and he was a persecutor.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Constantine united church and state. And the legacy of that is the persecution, torture, and murder done by the united state churches -- Catholic and Protestant -- which denied religious liberty and operated by compulsion.

well, you could make that argument for any form of government. just because folks abuse it later, just means that it can be abused. faith and state uniting has always been an issue since man is fallen.
 
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buzuxi02

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Constantine united church and state. And the legacy of that is the persecution, torture, and murder done by the united state churches -- Catholic and Protestant -- which denied religious liberty and operated by compulsion.

Your desire to "rip" people is most un-Christlike, especially since you're wrong. And so is your air of contemptuous superiority.

Actually that was Theodosius. If Constantine united Church and state then how do you account for his successor Julian?

The uniting was a good thing, torture which still happens kills the body but not the soul, heresy kills both.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Gxg, for some reason I am not able to use the quote feature with your posts.

The consensus of scholars is that Munster was an aberrant event in Anabaptism.
That's not what the scholars have said when it came the origins of Anabaptists and the varied origins (and several have already been listed by other Anabaptis) - unless you have actual resources saying otherwise to place forward - and as said before, it was never just Munster. There were several other groups and leaders outside of that which advocated for violent overthrow and did so from a militaristic messianic perspective.
Anabaptists, Baptists, and Quakers are responsible for giving the Christian world the gift of religious liberty and church-state separation, even benefiting the state-church persecutors.
That reads more so as a slogan rather than an actual demonstration of evidence - seeing that there were other groups outside of them which already did religious liberty and church-state separation (as was the case with the Donatist churches in North Africa centuries before Anabaptist/Baptist or Quakers since the Donatist turned to define Christian liberty in terms of freedom from the emperor)

There were plenty of others, as said before, who were never for Church/State separation and yet they also promoted much in terms of religious liberty - as already noted earlier in #84 and #92 and #95

And I must say this about the erroneous claim, which I have seen on more than one forum, that Zwingli and his movement were Anabaptists. This is not true. Zwingli was in favor of infant baptism, and state-churchism, and he was a persecutor.
Zwingli did not differnent than the other camps of Anabaptism that advocated for believers to take over communities (and again, they did so from a communal perspective rather than enforcing from the top down with government) - aAnabaptist did persecution just as much as others.

With Zwingli, we cannot avoid how other Anabaptists had been disciples of Ulrich Zwingli, the reformer of Zurich, Switzerland, or had been affected by his writings.
 
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buzuxi02

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Oh God, western european-centric religions claiming victimhood. The latin and protestant killing machines right down to two world wars is not because anyone of these western european religions were victims it was because the antichrist was released to wreak havoc due to europes apostacy. Its what happens when the restraining force is taken away. You think anyone outside from this christendom worldview see good guys and bad guys? Asians, Middle Easterners, Africans think your all a bunch of savages, its really laughable for western european centric religions to attempt to claim victimhood when your all from the same lineage (the enlighteners included).

Baptists and methodists and quakers and lutherans and reformed calvinists and episcopaleans and jehovahs witnesses and evangelicals and pentecostals are not some saviors of christianity they are the cancer, the effect of apostasy.
 
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rusmeister

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What I said is manifestly true. And what was Rome persecuting? Local bodies of believers, assemblies, otherwise called churches.

Ignoring what Belloc says and reasserting your view does nothing to refute Belloc's point on how it is not possible that the local bodies of believers were not organized into a common Body.
 
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rusmeister

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I take issue with and resent your phrasing, that I wave my qualifications in the air. I only brought them up after I was challenged in an unseemly way. I don't care what the Protestant or Catholic positions are on Constantine; I was and am only interested in the facts. And what I have stated are the incontrovertible facts. Whoever agrees with the objective facts is right; whoever disagrees is wrong.

There are many facts, and being completely cognizant of all the facts is a grand claim. It is the hierarchy of facts, properly assessing facts as to their relative importance, that matters.

Even what you call "fact" is disputed; what good then is it claimn facts as argument?
 
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CelticRebel

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Actually that was Theodosius. If Constantine united Church and state then how do you account for his successor Julian?

The uniting was a good thing, torture which still happens kills the body but not the soul, heresy kills both.

If you consider the persecution that resulted from the union of church and state to be a good thing and something that would be affirmed by Jesus, then you and I are not worshiping the same Savior.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Gxg, your statement that Anabaptists persecuted as much as others is patently false and provable as such by the historical record.
Celtic,

Making an assertion via accusation is NOT the same as showing documented cases of that to be true - as that's a basic in history.

Seriously, If you're going to make a claim, appealing to emotion rhetoric does not establish anything and only shows one is begging the question - and not even coming close to either offering real documented resources or addressing what other Anabaptist have said. Thus, it'd be prudent to actually show where you have not been false before claiming others are "patently false" since you've not dealt factually or accurately with the historical record in actions done by Anabaptist. As said before:

Gxg (G²);67441916 said:
I have had several friends who are Anabaptists (such as David Flowers, Alan Knox - who is friends with other prominent Anabaptists such as David Black, and others I've grown up with who were very zealous for the Anabaptist view). As much as I may be thankful for the work of the Anabaptists (often called by others the "step-children of the Reformers" in how they went further than the Reformers in wanting radical change), I do think there can be a lot of misunderstanding who they are.

We cannot forget events such as what occurred certain radicals attempted set up an Anabaptist kingdom at Munster in Westphalia, Germany. ..if remembering Melchior Hoffman and the followers of his special branch of Anabaptism (known as “Melchiorites”, a group that rejected the pacifism of other Anabaptist groups and advocated the violent over-throw of the existing society in anticipation of the imminent coming of God's Kingdom). We cannot ignore how in 1535, Democratic-Anabaptist types stormed the Amsterdam city hall while others seized and fortified a Friesland monastery ..and we cannot ignore what happened with others actually promoting polygamy, as even German Communist intellectual Karl Kautsky vociferously defended the Münster Anabaptists......and events such as Munster are ones which others do not wish to tackle when it comes to noting why the Anabaptist were persecuted so intensely this catastrophe commenced a long period of persecution and reckoning due to the violence done by Anabaptist.

For reference:





The Anabaptist kingdom of Munster, with its millenarian fervor, polygamy, and communalism (all of it done in the name of being against Church/State together) is something we cannot forget if being fair. There's a reason others have noted that he Anabaptists were often much opposed and convicted because the Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries...some even claiming "it is impossible to be Christian and wealthy at the same time"; "all authorities, secular and clerical, must be deprived of their offices once and for all or be killed by the sword…" (as noted best by Igor Shafarevich in his book The Socialist Phenomenon where he documents the teachings and activities of two important Anabaptist leaders, Thomas Muntzer and John of Leyden).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwGzkz8tA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns8a-GxZG2I

Gxg (G²);67448735 said:
Celtic, labeling Munster as an aberrant event already avoids where there were others besides the Munster situation who were problematic - and it also avoids the fact that one cannot be inconsistent when talking on the event as aberrant when the fact is that there were just as many abberant events within Orthodoxy or others advocating against seperation of Church and State (if assuming all cases were automatically violent). We cannot do equivocation on the issue.....for the he Münster Rebellion was a turning point for the Anabaptist movement but its earlier history was always rooted in the same violence that other Anabaptists try to claim is done only by the Reformers and Catholic camps. We also have other groups besides Munster such as the Batenburgers under Jan van Batenburg preserved the violent millennialist stream of Anabaptism seen at Münster/believed force was justified against anyone not in their sect - but after being suppressed, some went undercover pretending to be Catholics or Lutherans as necessary for their survival...but other Anabaptists who arose to oppose them became known as the Mennonites (after finding leaders in others such as Menno Simons ).....but one of the other prominent leaders of Anabaptists ( David Joris) ended up meeting with others underground (as it concerns divisions on polygamy and the use of violence) and noted that there needed to be restraint since the time had not yet arisen for them to resist.

So the Anabaptist name was never flawless overall in its history and had to be rehabilitated just as with others:


For a brief excerpt:

Modern efforts to reclaim Anabaptism as a valid tradition often highlight two early milestones of the movement: the first re-baptism of believers by radical reformers associated with Ulrich Zwingli at Zürich in 1525 and the Schleitheim Articles of 1527 (a brief Anabaptist statement of ecclesiological distinctives that helped shape the tradition for generations). Eager to find the good in sixteenth-century Anabaptism, some modern scholars point to these two expressions as normative for the early movement. The same interpreters dismiss millenarian or violent expressions of Anabaptism as aberrations.

An accurate picture of early Anabaptism must reflect complexities and abiguities of the movement. Recent interpreters of the Reformation era tend to emphasize that Anabaptism sprang from multiple roots and exhibited a wide variety of expressions. Instead of pointing to only one fountainhead of "authentic" early Anabaptism, historians now are likely to identify a range of radical reformers as belonging to a broad movement. The wider scope of Anabaptist studies now encompasses both pacifists and violent revolutionaries,5 free church and territorial church advocates.6 Historians now note that some early Anabaptists (especially the rebels at Munster) centred their faith and practice on Old Testament models, while others (such as the Zürich circle) were strongly Christocentric.

With such a broad spectrum of theological species early in the movement, it is impossible to state the Anabaptist view on almost any topic. Nor is it possible to tell the Anabaptist story. Because the early movement was often illegal and operated on a grassroots level, it did not develop a stable institutional or geographic base. In the heat of persecution, or in the fever of apocalyptic expectation, early leaders did not develop a comprehensive or systematic theology. Rather than finding one "original" expression of Anabaptism in the sixteenth century, the historian finds a plethora of radical movements that opponents all lumped together under the label "Anabaptist".​


And even outside of that, we also have an extensive history of Anabaptist supporting many things in the 20th century which did do a great deal of harm to others. I can appreciate others pointing out the following:

"....historic Anabaptist streams have a complicated history as it relates to slavery and racism in America. On one hand, most Anabaptists did not participate in slavery, unlike almost every other Christian tradition and denomination. On the other hand, unlike the Quakers whom many eventually became great abolitionists, Mennonites did very little to actively confront and challenge slavery and later racist manifestations like Jim Crow, Lynching, the convict leasing system, etc. So, it definitely is important to have a formational community that produces people that can resist participating in things like slavery. But it is also important to produce people that are willing to head towards Jerusalem and accept the consequences that come from confronting a social order that does not align with God’s Kingdom"

Some have argued for Mennonite activism in certain parts when it came to racism and systems like Jim Crow in the South - but there were many differing groups in the camp which allowed things to remain as they were.

And the debates have continued for some time. As another wisely noted in All Blog Posts[bless and do not curse]for January, 2015 | The Christian Century

Well it is precisely that neo-Anabaptists seem to be placing the current critiques of white homogeneity at the feet of the historic groups feet rather than by discussing their history, culture, and issues but have forgotten to do the same for their own formation. Believe it or not, neo-Anabaptists have not dropped out of a cultural and historical vacuum, in which they are the only ones who come untouched by history. They too have been socialized by something as well. More specifically, my engagement with the particular neo-Anabaptists making this particular argument are most often leaders that came from (and still are) deeply a part of the white evangelical community. Believe it or not, but white evangelicals also have a long history with race. Unfortunately, unlike Mennonite history which includes providing the very first petition against slavery in the colonies all the way back in 1688, and the overall rejection of the practice of slavery by their communities throughout American history (and no denominational splits over the issue), many neo-Anabaptists have a tradition deeply rooted in overwhelming turn towards endorsing slavery by the Church going into the 19th century. This was followed by the endorsement or accommodation of white evangelical communities in regards to black codes, Jim and Jane Crow, lynching, KKK and white citizens councils, neo-slavery convict leasing systems, and the ongoing refusal to acknowledge the image of God and dignity in black life even up until today.​

And as said earlier, I already have Anabaptist friends/family today I've been good with for years - but them being non-violent today doesn't change where extreme cases of violence also happened in Anabaptist history just as they did with others.



We already have multiple cases of Anabaptists within the 20st Century who supported Jim Crow and Segregation - with other Anabaptist today noting that to be a shameful period in history (as well as noting directly where a lot of it has yet to be dealt with with the racial stereotypes in Anabaptist camps).

And we already have several Anabaptist groups in history which did violence and Anabaptist noted it. If you cannot deal with the facts, then you do not really represent what other Anabaptist have already been far more honest in addressing as it concerns the historical record - and that's far from dealing with history.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If you consider the persecution that resulted from the union of church and state to be a good thing and something that would be affirmed by Jesus, then you and I are not worshiping the same Savior.

well, just because someone abuses a good thing and makes it evil does not mean that it is wicked in of itself. it just means that it has been abused. the persecution is one thing, and the working together of Church and state is another.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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well, just because someone abuses a good thing and makes it evil does not mean that it is wicked in of itself. it just means that it has been abused. the persecution is one thing, and the working together of Church and state is another.
Exactly - that would be like saying the extremes of Anabaptists who practiced communalism and violently persecuted others for state power (the reflection of Revolt) are somehow the reflection of all others today who are for communal living.
 
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Thread has been reopened and undergone a cleanup for flaming violations. If your post is gone that is the reason. I will remind everyone not to flame each other and address the post not the poster. Thank you!

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CelticRebel

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Thread has been reopened and undergone a cleanup for flaming violations. If your post is gone that is the reason. I will remind everyone not to flame each other and address the post not the poster. Thank you!

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Maybe it would have been better to have left it closed.
 
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Maybe it would have been better to have left it closed.

It might end up being closed for good if it gets out of control again but for now heed the Hat and keep it civil. Thanks!
 
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CelticRebel

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It might end up being closed for good if it gets out of control again but for now heed the Hat and keep it civil. Thanks!

If it becomes uncivil, it won't be because of me. From now, on instead of replying to attacks, I'll just hit the "report" button.
 
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