Christ's return Delayed???

[ToBeLoved]

No kidding. I remember Robertson saying something along the lines of he was chosen by God to usher in Jesus' second coming. I've not heard Robertson blame the church for its delay though.

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson

Women killing children, practicing witchcraft and becoming lesbians. Poor Pat has fallen off the edge of the ledge.

 

[Laureate]

Have you been weaned from the other extra-biblical books? This is a Christian forum, we do not believe in other Jewish books. Messianic's as far as I know follow the oral Torah, written Torah and all the other books that Judaism follows as well as all the other oral sources of Judaism.

How do we know where what you say has come from?

I quoted scripture (with ch. & vs. #) which (other than a varient of name & title) is equal to the king james, or greater (transcriptions from which all translations come);

Personally I do not subscribe to commentary, we have the Word of Elohym, and His Spirit to guide us do we not?

Even if I could flash the highest credentials issued by men, that should mean nothing to you who rely on the Word & Spirit of Elohym;

Y'shua instructed us to recognize a tree by the fruit it bears, I am a Laurel tree (rooted in a meadow) planted beside a course of running water, yet my testimony is not what validates it to be true;

I am a Crown (steven) woven of sprigs of כבוד (k'bowd) Laurel, seeing how both of my parents (Larry & Laurie) are Laurels by name, thus I am a Crown of כבוד Glory by name, and by name I am a fulfillment of Psalms one, seeing how both of my parents also share the same initials LEE lit. a meadow (lit. grass growing beside a course of water, choice for use as fodder);

This all still means nothing, if I do not bear the fruit of a Laurel planted beside a running course of water, and is worthless if bear not a real Laureate (halo, Crown of Glory) upon my head;

In Isaiah 8 Immanuel says unto his disciples, Bind up the Testimony of his disciples, and to seal the תורה (towruh) Law [tech. The Tanach Old testament] and any one who does not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them;

This is the only passage I know that foretells the union of the Old Testament, and the New Testament which we Messianics & Christians refer to as the bible;

In this same chapter (8:11) of Isaiah it reads...

"For Ea'huah spoke to me with a Strong Manual (lit. hand), and instructed me, to not walk in the Way of these people, saying,

Do not proclaime an alliance with everyone whom these people proclaim alliance with, nor ירא be instructed by them, nor be afraid;

Sanctify the Host of Ea'huah, and let him be your instructer, and let every one of you revere him."

The Strong's manual is a great referrence tool, (not a commentary), that indexes basically every verse for quick referrence, and they also have a Hebrew & Greek lexicon to introduce one to the native tongue from which the scriptures was translated;

 

[ToBeLoved]

I quoted scripture (with ch. & vs. #) which (other than a varient of name & title) is equal to the king james, or greater (transcriptions from which all translations come);

Personally I do not subscribe to commentary, we have the Word of Elohym, and His Spirit to guide us do we not?

Even if I could flash the highest credentials issued by men, that should mean nothing to you who rely on the Word & Spirit of Elohym;

Y'shua instructed us to recognize a tree by the fruit it bears, I am a Laurel tree (rooted in a meadow) planted beside a course of running water, yet my testimony is not what validates it to be true;

I am a Crown (steven) woven of sprigs of כבוד (k'bowd) Laurel, seeing how both of my parents (Larry & Laurie) are Laurels by name, thus I am a Crown of כבוד Glory by name, and by name I am a fulfillment of Psalms one, seeing how both of my parents also share the same initials LEE lit. a meadow (lit. grass growing beside a course of water, choice for use as fodder);

This all still means nothing, if I do not bear the fruit of a Laurel planted beside a running course of water, and is worthless if bear not a real Laureate (halo, Crown of Glory) upon my head;

In Isaiah 8 Immanuel says unto his disciples, Bind up the Testimony of his disciples, and to seal the תורה (towruh) Law [tech. The Tanach Old testament] and any one who does not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them;

This is the only passage I know that foretells the union of the Old Testament, and the New Testament which we Messianics & Christians refer to as the bible;

In this same chapter (8:11) of Isaiah it reads...

"For Ea'huah spoke to me with a Strong Manual (lit. hand), and instructed me, to not walk in the Way of these people, saying,

Do not proclaime an alliance with everyone whom these people proclaim alliance with, nor ירא be instructed by them, nor be afraid;

Sanctify the Host of Ea'huah, and let him be your instructer, and let every one of you revere him."

The Strong's manual is a great referrence tool, (not a commentary), that indexes basically every verse for quick referrence, and they also have a Hebrew & Greek lexicon to introduce one to the native tongue from which the scriptures was translated;

What do you mean by a 'Laurel'?

 

[NaturalSinner]

There is NO delay, and as Jesus said: no man knows the hour --not even the Son. He is anxiously waiting the moment when His Father tells Him to go receive your Bride. It is not true that the matter is delayed because of man's failures. Maybe you heard wrong, or maybe the man is confused about what the Bible teaches.

This is the answer. Nobody will truly know when the end is until God says so.

 

[Laureate]

"What do you mean by a 'Laurel'?"

Laurel is just one of many names used to depict a tree considered by many ancient cultures to be Sacred, or Holy as it pertains to Elohym our Sovereign Author;

In Yeshua's day the laureate was commonly referred to as the Victors Crown, and it was the coveted prize for those who Overcome;

Many do not know that the Crown promised us (in Revelations) for Overcoming is halo, which is also a L-aureate (crown of glorious light);

An aureate is a 'golden crown' as the one placed upon the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:11), and on the head of the high priest (Ex. 39:30);

The biblical word צדיק (ts'deek) for 'Righteousness' is the same biblical word for 'Victory', Thus, those who presume that a crown of righteousness, and a crown of victory, is two different crowns, they are mistaken;

The trees of righteousness would therefore be depicted by a forest of Laurels, or Myrtles;

"To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Ea'huah, that he might be glorified." [Isaiah 61:3]

The Hebrew word here for "Gloified" is לְהִ תְפָּאֵר: which will also render laurel on google translate;

I am a California Laurel, which is also commonly referred to as the Oregon Myrtle, likewise, in modern & ancient Hebrew these two genre of trees are considered one:

The Greek refer to the Laurel as Daphan, it is the tree associated with receiving divine guidance, and revelations, worn as a crown (laureate) by kings, priests, and individuals who exhibited divine grace beyond the norm whether in poetry (which Paul even acknowledged was of the Greek prophets), physical feats, or achievement;

The Sephardic Latin term 'L-AWR-EL' lit. 'The properties of Elohym's Light' definitively equates to the Glory of Elohym;

A Laureate is a token of 'Immanuel' to indicate tha the presence of 'Elohym is amongst (us)', in Hebrew there are quite a few biblical words used to depict a 'laurel';

כבוד (K'bowd), perhaps my favorite, is also used in modern Hebrew to refer to (synonomously with) the word 'Christian';

Is it because many modern Jews think we are כבוד honorable?

Or because we represent the children of Immanuel in Isaiah 8 whom we call Christ, and therefore are Anointed beings who bear his כבוד 'Glory'?

Is it their way of acknowledging us as Saints, for such are known to receieve a כבוד laureate-halo?

Are they recognizing a tree by the fruit it bears? I am not able to answer these questions, but I'm certain not every person claiming to be a Jew would agree with them, nor accept the word כבוד as an appropriate word to ascribe unto a Christian;

Perhaps the only thing I despise about being a Laurel and a Laureate, is, People do not believe that you are endowed from on high, and therefore seek to promote pride of self achievement, or accuse you of boasting in self achievement;

Yet, I want to tell the whole world what the Most high has done through me (which is an honor), not to say, look at what I did, or what I can do;

To my own Shame (reproach is the opposite of honor), I even had a beef with heaven, because it appeared to me that favoritism was being shown;

Though grateful for the blessings, and protection, I personally felt uncomfotable being the only one in a crowd walking through the shadow of death unscathed;

It got to the point where I asked heaven to remove my protection, and allow me to suffer with everyone else, (not the brightest thing I ever did), yet even this heaven accredits to me as righteous;

It was given to me to know, that, whatever protection was to be abated from me, would be restored when I could find the biblical reason(s) for such an individual to be blessed, and protected as was I, and offer evidence as to why heaven is not guilty of being a respecter of persons;

Lol, if I don't have more boo boos to boast in now, yet I did come to accept the only scriptural justification I was able to find for the appearance of such favoritism;

In a single word 'Resurrection', for our rewards do follow us, and thus it was not favoritism, but a promise being kept, and honored, for faithful services rendered;

In Zechariah Yowshua the high priest is seen in a vision being clothed and crowned by Myrtles;

"And he showed me Yowshua the high priest standing before the angel of Ea'huah....

Now Yowshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he answered and spoke unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And...

....set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of Ea'huah stood by." [Zechariah 3:1, & 3-5]

Of course you have to read, (and remember) chapter one to recall that the Angel of Ea'huah is the one who עֹמֵד 'rose up', and 'appeared' בֵּין 'between' [-ים] 'a pair of' Myrtles, and עֹמֵד 'stood' as a man, a man standing בֵּין 'among' the Myrtles;

"I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.

And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom Ea'huah has sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

And they answered the Angel of Ea'huah that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest." [Zechariah 1:8-11]

Notice how the one who rises and appears between the pair of Myrtles, and stands as a man, that the same is the Angel of Ea"huah speaking to Zechariah.

Whosoever has an ear to hear what the Spirit of Truth has to say to the congregations let them hear;

 

[fat wee robin]

What he probably meant is that sin in the churches has prevented the spread of the Gospel and the conversion of sinners as it should have been done. Since there is a finite number of souls which must enter into the Kingdom of God before the Second Coming, that is a reasonable conclusion. God has given the Church (the entire Body of believers) the responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission.

Heres hoping , for a mass of prodigal returners, before 2033 .

 

[namakele]

"
it appeared to me that favoritism was being shown;

Though grateful for the blessings, and protection, I personally felt uncomfotable being the only one in a crowd walking through the shadow of death unscathed;

It got to the point where I asked heaven to remove my protection, and allow me to suffer with everyone else, (not the brightest thing I ever did), yet even this heaven accredits to me as righteous;

It was given to me to know, that, whatever protection was to be abated from me, would be restored when I could find the biblical reason(s) for such an individual to be blessed, and protected as was I, and offer evidence as to why heaven is not guilty of being a respecter of persons;

This reminds me of Job.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What he probably meant is that sin in the churches has prevented the spread of the Gospel and the conversion of sinners as it should have been done. Since there is a finite number of souls which must enter into the Kingdom of God before the Second Coming, that is a reasonable conclusion. God has given the Church (the entire Body of believers) the responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission.

I don't think that we should think about what he 'probably' meant unless he clarified his position or retracted it.

I've heard some weird stuff that came out of his mouth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What he probably meant is that sin in the churches has prevented the spread of the Gospel and the conversion of sinners as it should have been done. Since there is a finite number of souls which must enter into the Kingdom of God before the Second Coming, that is a reasonable conclusion. God has given the Church (the entire Body of believers) the responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission.

What is this 'finite number of souls that must enter the Kingdom of God'?

That's not my understanding. It's that the gospel must be preached to all nations and people on the earth.

 

[Job8]

What is this 'finite number of souls that must enter the Kingdom of God'?

That's not my understanding. It's that the gospel must be preached to all nations and people on the earth.

Of course the Gospel must be preached to all nations and to all people throughout the world. But not all will be saved. God knows already who will be saved out of the Gentiles before the Church is completed. Thus we read of the "fulness of the Gentiles" in Rom 11:25, which is the full complement of the Gentiles: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Please note:

Strong's Concordance (4138)
pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word:πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech:Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: play'-ro-mah)
Short Definition:fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

This does not indicate that God has limited the number to be saved by decree (a Calvinistic notion). It simply means that there is a time set (as well as a finite number) for the Church to be completed and to be raptured out of this earth. If that number which God deems perfect is not there, Christ may delay His return, since He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).

 

[Laureate]

This reminds me of Job.

Yea, it did not dawn on me till after I posted the response that I saw a correlation in protection being removed from one blessed with a divine hedge.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of course the Gospel must be preached to all nations and to all people throughout the world. But not all will be saved. God knows already who will be saved out of the Gentiles before the Church is completed. Thus we read of the "fulness of the Gentiles" in Rom 11:25, which is the full complement of the Gentiles: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Please note:

Strong's Concordance (4138)
pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word:πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech:Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: play'-ro-mah)
Short Definition:fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

This does not indicate that God has limited the number to be saved by decree (a Calvinistic notion). It simply means that there is a time set (as well as a finite number) for the Church to be completed and to be raptured out of this earth. If that number which God deems perfect is not there, Christ may delay His return, since He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).

Well, I'm not sure why you used the wording you did then.

I do not know that there is a time set.

There are things that will come to pass, but that does not mean that the Father has set the time, IMHO.

That is an odd concept to me. We live in a reality that has time, but I do not believe that God is limited to time per se.

 

[Laureate]

Remember the Samaritan woman who knew to expect Christ, in fact, she inadvertently found herself informing the Messiah himself of such things;

When the Master of the house comes, when the Spirit of Truth manifests in the flesh as did the Word, I can not help but wonder, how many will attempt to bring Him into remembrance, saying Only the Father knows the day, and hour!?

 

[Laureate]

Y'shua said, that everything that belongs to the Father was given unto him, and yet, he has made all things known unto us, thus the day and hour is encripted before us, and we are awaiting for One (not many) to come along, break the seven seals, and bring us into Remembrance, guiding us through the scriptures, pointing out everything precept upon precept, etc.,

Because we are the many members of His Sovereign Head, we all know in part, and He will be able to reconcile all of our differences, in the mean time we continue in His word, and increase knowledge;

Thus as the day approaches, so too does the awareness of a faithfull desciple come closer to a complete, and accurate picture from the scriptures.

That is why Y'shua said that, a faithfull and wise servant will keep watch, and hinted to the fact, if such a one knew what watch in the night that he would return, then he would keep watch, therefore Watch!

The Spiritual Meat of a parable is easily ascertained by following the natural order of the Carnal (sincere) Milk of a parable, that is why Peter advised us to desire the sincere milk, to grow thereby;

The Servants do not know what watch in the night, but We who continue in his word faithfully are promoted to children of the kingdom, and We do know what watch in the night he/He shall return because he/He told us in the parable of five wise, and five foolish virgins;

He/he shall come during the third watch, which begins at midnight, and ends at 3 am, we also know that He/he will return in the third millenium because a day is as
a thousand years;

Seeing how he rose early on the third day while it was yet dark, that would mean He/he shall return early in the third millenium, and it will not be easy to recognize Him/him immediately;

Too Many stumble over the words which Y'shua spoke when He/he said, No man has seen the Father, for the same also said unto His/his disciples, You have seen the Father;

Was this another attempt to inform us that we are Elohym, and not just men?

Or was He/he just showing a discernment between the Spiritual true disciple who understands, and is thus given more to understand, as opposed to those who remain Carnal, and have that which they do comprehend taken from them (implying forgetfullness);

When we increase knowledge without understanding, we are as one who attempts to walk with only one foot participating, and our puzzle will appear to be more complicated than it already is;

For every Spiritual matter there is a Natural earthly matter, the natural is within our grasp's reach, and when we accurately comprehend the natural science of such things, we then have the ability to ascertain the accuracy of the Spirtual matters to which they perfectly align parabolically;

 

[ToBeLoved]

Remember the Samaritan woman who knew to expect Christ, in fact, she inadvertently found herself informing the Messiah himself of such things;

When the Master of the house comes, when the Spirit of Truth manifests in the flesh as did the Word, I can not help but wonder, how many will attempt to bring Him into remembrance, saying Only the Father knows the day, and hour!?

But that is what God's Word says.

THat only the Father knows the day and hour. Not even the Son knows.

So the scenario that you have above could NOT OCCUR, because the Son will be told by the Father, because only the Father knows, when the time has come for His return.

 

[Laureate]

But that is what God's Word says.

You are failing to acknowledge other pertinent things that were spoken on the matter;

Though you say, God said (1x), you show no scriptural support (two or three other verses) to substantiate your understanding of what He said.

Y'shua spoke many things, to which we should seek a harmonic conflation, we should not hold up a verse to stand on it's own, and conveniently ignore other pertinent verses that contextually effect the over all meaning;

Elohym also has a mysterious manner of saying things where only those who follow His drift are able to understand; [Mathew 13]

He also is known to hand those who do not exhibit a Love for (his) Truth over to a delusion, and cause them to believe in a lie; [2nd Theselonians 2:10-11]

Thus we do good to accept every bit of His Truth, or inadvertently we may find our selves handed over to believing a lie, with a conviction strong enough to prevent us from believing the actual Truth, no matter how eloquent it is presented unto us;

THat only the Father knows the day and hour. Not even the Son knows.

First you quote, "No one ידע knows the day and hour, not even the son Only the Father ידע knows"

And in response I point out that the Father has given Everything unto the Son, and he has given everything he ידעים knows unto his disciples;

"You are my friends, IF you do whatsoever I command you.

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant ידע knows not what his lord does:

But I have called you friends; for everything that I have heard of my Father I have ידע made known unto you." [John 15:14-15]

"Now they have ידע known that everything whatsoever you have given me is from you.

For I have given unto them the words which you have given me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they believe that you sent me." [John 17:7-8]

Notice here how he says, '...and they have received them...' no where does it say that they understood all of these things;

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but you can not bear them now.

[How can he have revealed everything and yet have many things to say, unless much of what he revealed was yet veiled by parables, and otherwise just lacking a harmonic conflation of scriptural knowledge]

However when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all Truth:

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

Everything that The Father Has Belongs To Me: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you." [John 16:12-15]

"For the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring everything to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." [John 14:26]

"For the hour shall come, as it is now, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Elohym is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth." [John 4:23-24]

So you see it is the Spirit of Truth [aka the Father] who shall come in the Son's name, [John 14:26], (as the Son came in the Father's name), and He shall bring us into remembrance;

Then will we realize on that day that the Son is in the Father; [14:20]

That is why the world will no longer see the Son, and yet in a little while shall see the Son; [John 14:18-20, & 16:16]

Then says He...

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, you might believe." [John 14:29]

For whosoever has seen the Son, has seen the Father, (and visa-versa); [John 14:9]

Therfore when the Master of the house (aka Holy Spirit, aka Spirit of Truth, aka Father) comes [Luke 13:25, it will be like addressing the Son, because that is whose name He will come in; [John 14:26]

"But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen?" [Matthew 21:37-40]

For it will be the Son inside the Father speaking to us when we hear the Son's Voice, and see the express image of the Son, yet it will not be the Son, but the Father whom we shall actually behold on that day.

Yet, how do you suppose He will reveal Himself unto us?

The Son describes Him as teaching us from the scriptures, no mentioning of miracles, or signs other than the sign of Jona, who came preaching;

The sign of Jona pertains to the Son of Adam ressurecting after three days and three nights from the heart of the Earth, to preach;

This is a parable, so, what is the Spiritual equivalent to three Carnal days? But three thousand years!

So how can You say, You do not know what day, when he told us what day?

Unless of course you reserve the right to not rely on scriptural precepts which we were given to rely on.

We are currently in the earliest hours of the third (millenium) day, and I will remind you, he rose early on the third day, while it was yet dark;

 

[Laureate]

A gross problem with reading a translation is many get stuck on the translators limited choice of words, which is usually good but not always accurate, and in most cases never complete;

Why? Because today's translations only present words that are true from a theasaurus view (word for word), not a definitive view (which would show all of it's potential pertinences);

Elohym points out the importance of this phenomena in Yeremiah 1:11, yet No one who reads this passage (outside of the native tongue, i.e.) in the form of a translation is able to see, or discern what is actually being said, let alone what can be construed from it;

When we read this passage in the native tongue we can see that the words "Almond (tree)" and "Hasten" are translated from words that share the same consonantal grouping שקד yet are punctuated differently to pronounce and indicate different specific concepts;

The Word of Elohym (not a translation of Elohym's Word) clearly shows us (as an example to follow, and heed) that...

the punctuation used to discern a specific concept from a word does not nullify the (applicable) applications of specifics, which may be found in (an identicle consonantal grouping that has) an alternate punctuation;

Therefore, when I seek to exhaust a particular passage for all it's worth, at some point in time I deliberately ignore the fixed punctuation, to consider other applicable conceptual notions;

This takes Gleaning to a whole 'nother level, which a bible loving Christian would absolutely enjoy spending hours at a time exploring;

Yet, What good is a word, if it does not impart a meaning? Thus a dictionary, and lexicon should always accompany one's bible, until such becomes memorized;

I also recomend that one dabble in linguistics, phonetics, and especially lexicography, for Elohym has placed a greater emphasis on us heeding His spoken word over the written word;

To say that the Sovereign Author ידע (knows) something, that the Head of our Sovereign Author does not ידע (know), is to veil a Truth in a puzzle;

There are various ways that one can ידע (know) something that their head does not also ידע (know);

For example, when one ידע (is aware of something) that they are not ידע (able to recognize, identify, or detect cognatively);

Or when one is unable to ידע (realize what is occuring) before them, nor ידע (aware of) what it is they are ידע (experiencing), nor fully ידע (comprehend the implications of) all that they are doing, or that is being said, or done;

So when we hear a word that is used to depict any number of various degrees, we need one or two more contextual qualifiers to ascertain which degrees are (or are not) applicable to the text at hand, especially when the subject involves diametrical properties;

"…for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." [Matthew 10:26]

Consider the diametrical properties of a related passage;

"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

There is another that bears witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesses of me is true." John 5:31-32]

"Yeshua answered, and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know from where it is I came, and where it is I go; but you can not tell from where it is I come, and to where it is I go.

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.

Then said they unto him, Where is your Father? Y'shua answered, You neither ידע know me, nor my Father: if you would have ידע known me, you would have ידע known my Father also." [John 8:14, & 17-19]

Did they ידע know of Y'shua? Yes! But did they ידע 'realize' who he really was? No! or ידע 'recognize' the one who was speaking through him? No!

I'm afraid the No's out weigh the yes's, yet they do not nullify the fact that they ידע 'were aware of' his existence as a man;

Nor nullify their ידע 'awareness of' an expected Messiah, they just did not ידע 'know' he was one in the same.

First Y'shua said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." then later he says, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true:"

These verses are pertinent to one another because they directly touch upon the same subject;

Yet when viewed together these two verses also have diametrical qualties that must be reconciled harmonically to show that both statements are true, and not just a contradiction, as it is subject to appear unto a carnal mind..

When we debate over such diametrical instances without a harmonic resolution we plant the denominational seed of separation, even if we do not break off into our own separate denominations, it will be like two different denominations coming to worship under the same roof;

Though both will share the same title of faith, neither one can validate the other's understanding, or belief;

Y'shua is not a liar, thus one must ask (The Scriptures), How can the testimony of Y'shua not be considered אמן true?

I have always found the answers to my deepest questions in the question itself, and the same proves to be אמן True in this case;

אמן a'min, lit. Believe, Faith, Truth, True, Trust, Valid, Validate (-tion), Rely, etc., etc.

A Diametrical verse such as the one we're dealing with requires a definitive knowledge of the word אמן, and a knowledge of the תורת 'Law' in order to ascertain how Yeshua's testimony can be considered both אמן and not אמן at the same time;

The Law indicates that all דברימ 'words, matters, and things' should be established by the mouth, (or indication, see Exodus 4:1-9) of two or three (pertinent) witnesses, (or pieces of evidence);

Thus, according to the Law, the testimony of one witness is not אמן 'Valid', even if it is אמן 'True';

By Law, it requires the testimony of one or two more to receive legal-divine אמן 'Validation';

This law is extremely valuable to the disciple that has an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying unto the congregations, for many do not know how to properly ascertain on their own when, 'enough is enough', let alone when enough is satisfactorily met;

When we receive two, or three indications that indicate some thing is so, a disciple (one who relies on Elohym's word) hears heaven speaking;

While those who ignore Elohym's counsel are still looking, and waiting for what they can (on their own) accept to be sufficient;

Or inadvertently looking, and waiting for what they can accept to be sufficient, or satifactoy according to another standard to determine if a thing is so;

We have His Word, and Spirit, these are the two true and faithfull witnesses, we either rely on them or suffer the consequences of our own ignorance, insecurities, disbeliefs, lazziness, or the malnutritious teachings of another;

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are failing to acknowledge other pertinent things that were spoken on the matter;

Though you say, God said (1x), you show no scriptural support (two or three other verses) to substantiate your understanding of what He said.

Y'shua spoke many things, to which we should seek a harmonic conflation, we should not hold up a verse to stand on it's own, and conveniently ignore other pertinent verses that contextually effect the over all meaning;

Elohym also has a mysterious manner of saying things where only those who follow His drift are able to understand; [Mathew 13]

He also is known to hand those who do not exhibit a Love for (his) Truth over to a delusion, and cause them to believe in a lie; [2nd Theselonians 2:10-11]

Thus we do good to accept every bit of His Truth, or inadvertently we may find our selves handed over to believing a lie, with a conviction strong enough to prevent us from believing the actual Truth, no matter how eloquent it is presented unto us;



First you quote, "No one ידע knows the day and hour, not even the son Only the Father ידע knows"

And in response I point out that the Father has given Everything unto the Son, and he has given everything he ידעים knows unto his disciples;

"You are my friends, IF you do whatsoever I command you.

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant ידע knows not what his lord does:

But I have called you friends; for everything that I have heard of my Father I have ידע made known unto you." [John 15:14-15]

"Now they have ידע known that everything whatsoever you have given me is from you.

For I have given unto them the words which you have given me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they believe that you sent me." [John 17:7-8]

Notice here how he says, '...and they have received them...' no where does it say that they understood all of these things;

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but you can not bear them now.

[How can he have revealed everything and yet have many things to say, unless much of what he revealed was yet veiled by parables, and otherwise just lacking a harmonic conflation of scriptural knowledge]

However when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all Truth:

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

Everything that The Father Has Belongs To Me: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you." [John 16:12-15]

"For the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring everything to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." [John 14:26]

"For the hour shall come, as it is now, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Elohym is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth." [John 4:23-24]

So you see it is the Spirit of Truth [aka the Father] who shall come in the Son's name, [John 14:26], (as the Son came in the Father's name), and He shall bring us into remembrance;

Then will we realize on that day that the Son is in the Father; [14:20]

That is why the world will no longer see the Son, and yet in a little while shall see the Son; [John 14:18-20, & 16:16]

Then says He...

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, you might believe." [John 14:29]

For whosoever has seen the Son, has seen the Father, (and visa-versa); [John 14:9]

Therfore when the Master of the house (aka Holy Spirit, aka Spirit of Truth, aka Father) comes [Luke 13:25, it will be like addressing the Son, because that is whose name He will come in; [John 14:26]

"But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen?" [Matthew 21:37-40]

For it will be the Son inside the Father speaking to us when we hear the Son's Voice, and see the express image of the Son, yet it will not be the Son, but the Father whom we shall actually behold on that day.

Yet, how do you suppose He will reveal Himself unto us?

The Son describes Him as teaching us from the scriptures, no mentioning of miracles, or signs other than the sign of Jona, who came preaching;

The sign of Jona pertains to the Son of Adam ressurecting after three days and three nights from the heart of the Earth, to preach;

This is a parable, so, what is the Spiritual equivalent to three Carnal days? But three thousand years!

So how can You say, You do not know what day, when he told us what day?

Unless of course you reserve the right to not rely on scriptural precepts which we were given to rely on.

We are currently in the earliest hours of the third (millenium) day, and I will remind you, he rose early on the third day, while it was yet dark;

What are you trying to prove?

All these verses that you listed are about other things, not Jesus return.

This is the verse that proves what I said is true.

Mark 13:32
32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come"

Matthew 24:36
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

All things will be revealed to us in heaven. At that time when we are not on earth anymore. That is not talking about now.

 

[Laureate]

Oh, so that is when Y'shua will return! Don't bother with a chapter or verse, I'll take your word!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh, so that is when Y'shua will return! Don't bother with a chapter or verse, I'll take your word!

I didn't say that I knew.

I said that NO ONE knows but the Father.

That's what the verses say. So are you doubting God's Word on the subject?

Read the verses.


Mark 13:32
32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come"

Matthew 24:36
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.