Christ warns the end comes suddenly, like a trap

[Achilles6129]

"34 “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”" Lu. 21:34-36 (ESV)

...and gives a dire warning about it. Evidently also the things to happen are quite bad, because Christ warns we should be "praying that we have strength to escape these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man." Evidently, the planet isn't quite as secure as most people believe.

Very interesting stuff.

 

[ebedmelech]

Depends on your eschatology.

As I see this passage it refers to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

It's much clearer in Luke because Luke (which is written to a Gentile audience) simply says in Luke 21;20, 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

Luke makes it even clearer what's happening...Luke 21-22-23:
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is pretty much how it went. Rome destroyed the city, temple, and dispersed the Jews again.

I'll hold right here. No doubt there will be disagreement and debate.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I couldn't resist...

 

[Achilles6129]

Why would he say it would come upon all those that dwell upon the face of the earth, then?

 

[ebedmelech]

Why would he say it would come upon all those that dwell upon the face of the earth, then?

Most of the developed world was occupied by Rome at this time. However, because many read this to be future...instead of reading this from the viewpoint of that time (remembering that Jesus is answering the disciples 3 questions), they don't follow it properly seeing it as this time.

Rome is the 4th beast of Daniel 7 which is Revelation 13:2 when the Roman Empire ruled the region. This is not Rome at their zenith either...they became stronger. There was a time of turmoil in the empire under Emperors Galba Otho, and Vitellius where the empire almost fell apart. I believe that to be the head wound that Revelation 13 speaks of.

 

[jsimms615]

Depends on your eschatology.

As I see this passage it refers to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

It's much clearer in Luke because Luke (which is written to a Gentile audience) simply says in Luke 21;20, 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

Luke makes it even clearer what's happening...Luke 21-22-23:
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is pretty much how it went. Rome destroyed the city, temple, and dispersed the Jews again.

I'll hold right here. No doubt there will be disagreement and debate.

I would agree with this interpretation that this scripture is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

 

[Interplanner]

For whatever reasons, Luke spent most of his attention about these things on the DofJ in 70. In fact, there are quite a few references or allusions, if you know where to look.

On the word 'ges' or world, be sure to check the conceptions of the times. EbedM has a point, but in Jn 11 the temple leaders complain that the whole world had gone after Christ, but 'ges' can mean land of Israel, and the leaders obviously just meant Israel. Likewise 'salt of the (ges)' in Mt 5, and 'light of the (ges)' and on and on. It usually means the land of Israel in those decades, and this is quite the case in Mt 24A.

 

[ebedmelech]

For whatever reasons, Luke spent most of his attention about these things on the DofJ in 70. In fact, there are quite a few references or allusions, if you know where to look.

On the word 'ges' or world, be sure to check the conceptions of the times. EbedM has a point, but in Jn 11 the temple leaders complain that the whole world had gone after Christ, but 'ges' can mean land of Israel, and the leaders obviously just meant Israel. Likewise 'salt of the (ges)' in Mt 5, and 'light of the (ges)' and on and on. It usually means the land of Israel in those decades, and this is quite the case in Mt 24A.

GREAT POINT!!!

 

[ebedmelech]

Something great to watch on YouTube is the series "The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire".

Regardless of you eschatalogical position, Rome figures heavily in the early church. It's good to know the history...and this is a good series.

If you're interested...here's a link to Episode 1:
Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire - Episode 1: The First Barbarian War (Documentary) - YouTube

Pretty good stuff...

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I dont understand how the Gospel, which is clearly not describing their time, but a time coming in the future, can be interpreted as already having happened..

I dont know any theologians that share this viewpoint, and Id have not come up with this from reading Scripture..


To say that the prophetic fulfillments have all happened makes no sense to me. None.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


The time of the end hasnt happened yet..

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Something great to watch on YouTube is the series "The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire".

Regardless of you eschatalogical position, Rome figures heavily in the early church. It's good to know the history...and this is a good series.

If you're interested...here's a link to Episode 1:


Pretty good stuff...

The Roman empire is survived by Roman Catholicism. The Papacy does in fact claim to be the religious authority over the world.

This is why it is a mystery.. People think individual countries have power, but its the men at the top who control everything..

 

[Interplanner]

One of the Australian Forum's original essays was "Protestant Revivalism, Pentecostalism, and the Drift Back To Rome" (in the sense of the Papacy). It was an essay on subjectivity in spiritual life. They believed the drift back to Rome was the 'healing of the wounded beast' (wounded by the Reformation).

I would have gone with that except that the Rev says its visions were at hand and to be realized quickly, and there are many reasons to see it as a description of the calamity in the 7th decade of Judea.

 

[ebedmelech]

The Roman empire is survived by Roman Catholicism. The Papacy does in fact claim to be the religious authority over the world.

This is why it is a mystery.. People think individual countries have power, but its the men at the top who control everything..

No...it's not. As much as I appreciate Luther and the Reformers this is typically a misnomer.

The Papacy is one thing Rome is another thing.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

No...it's not. As much as I appreciate Luther and the Reformers this is typically a misnomer.

The Papacy is one thing Rome is another thing.

Rome in and of itself is nothing.. Thats not even a contention, but seated in Rome is the head of all religious authority by self decree..

The Pope carries a false title as Vicar of Christ, something that is not of God, but of man, whos number, along with the serpent is 6. Nothing of men is respected by God.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

 

[Achilles6129]

Back to topic. Christ says the end comes suddenly, as a trap. Why has Christ taken so long to return? What is it that finally convinces him to return?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Back to topic. Christ says the end comes suddenly, as a trap. Why has Christ taken so long to return? What is it that finally convinces him to return?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I suppose hes waiting for the Gospel to be preached to all nations.

 

[Achilles6129]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I suppose hes waiting for the Gospel to be preached to all nations.

Right, but that's in God's control, not man's. God can return at any time. He could have returned in 500 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD, or 2000 AD, and did not.

So why wait any longer?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Right, but that's in God's control, not man's. God can return at any time. He could have returned in 500 AD, 1000 AD, 1500 AD, or 2000 AD, and did not.

So why wait any longer?

Maybe you could petition God through prayer and ask him?

 

[Achilles6129]

Maybe you could petition God through prayer and ask him?

Done, and no visible answer received. Except:

"9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants[h] and of their brothers and sisters,[i] who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed." Rev. 6:9-11 (NRSV)

 

[ebedmelech]

Rome in and of itself is nothing.. Thats not even a contention, but seated in Rome is the head of all religious authority by self decree..

The Pope carries a false title as Vicar of Christ, something that is not of God, but of man, whos number, along with the serpent is 6. Nothing of men is respected by God.

The Pope calling himself the vicar of Christ is a doctrinal issue, which really is not an issue with me. I reject that.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

This is what I don't agree with.

The woman is apostate Israel! The purple and scarlet refers to the levitical priesthood of Israel as well as the tabernacle.

It goes back to the very colors God gave for them in Exodus 26:1:
“Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet material; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman.

Aaron's garments were the same color as Exodus 28:5, 6 says:
5 They shall take the gold and the blue and the purple and the scarlet material and the fine linen.
6 “They shall also make the ephod of gold, of blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen, the work of the skillful workman.

This is why I don't hold the idea this is Rome. In Revelation 12 "the woman is Israel. In Revelation 12:14 we see this woman go off into the wilderness:
14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

We never see this woman again until Revelation 17 where John IS TAKEN INTO THE WILDERNESS to see her. Revelation 17:3 says:
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

This is Israel gone fully apostate persecuting the church in the power of...and in agreement with Rome (NOT the RCC).

That's why I hold the woman to be apostate Israel...they still have the priesthood and the temple, even though Christ has come...and that temple is about to be destroyed.