Catholics on, Interpreting the Bible

[MamaZ]

Our trust in the Holy Spirit is unwarrented?

 

[MamaZ]

Our trust is in the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit whom reveals His word to us. For we know and understand that the scriptures are indeed breathed by God therefore we can trust in what the scriptures speak to us for They are the very words of God.

 

[Montalban]

Our trust in the Holy Spirit is unwarrented?

I have to assume you're asking me.

The Holy Spirit is trustworthy. It's our 'trust' in trusting in the Holy Spirit that's unwarranted.

It's like saying if I jump off this cliff, and I survive, it's God's will when God didn't demand you jump off the cliff. You should not put God to the test. The fact that all the 100,000's of Protestants all trusting in the Holy Spirit and coming up with division means that they, not the Holy Spirit need to have a bit of introspection.

Unless of course you believe that the Holy Spirit is the cause of the division? (Perhaps you don't believe that there's any division)

 

[Montalban]

Our trust is in the written scriptures and the Holy Spirit whom reveals His word to us. For we know and understand that the scriptures are indeed breathed by God therefore we can trust in what the scriptures speak to us for They are the very words of God.

Which is missing the point of what I wrote.

It's not the words that are untrustworthy, it's the person reading them; like when you asked me if I believed the Apostles teaching and missing the point that I do believe that I follow the Apostles, I just don't believe they're teaching what you think they're teaching.

Unfortunately Protestantism makes everyone a Pope - you all infallibly come to conclusions about how to interpret the Bible. And your way is the way, because why would the Holy Spirit lead you astray?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Which is missing the point of what I wrote.

It's not the words that are untrustworthy, it's the person reading them. You do this all the time, like when you asked me if I believed the Apostles teaching and missing the point that I do follow the Apostles, I just don't believe they're teaching what you think they're teaching.

Unfortunately Protestantism makes everyone a Pope - you all infallibly come to conclusions about how to interpret the Bible. And your way is the way, because why would the Holy Spirit lead you astray?

The greek word for "reading" is rather interesting...I have a thead on it here

http://www.christianforums.com/t7356783/
The One Reading.....

#314 used 32 times in 29 verses. 1 Time in Revelation

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written for the time nigh.

Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720)

314. anaginosko an-ag-in-oce'-ko from 303 and 1097; to know again, i.e. (by extension) to read:--read. [Used 32 times in NT.
303. ana an-ah' a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):--and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
1097. ginosko ghin-oce'-ko a prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand

 

[fated]

A right interpretation must be conformed to the Sacred Scripture. Some persons interpret the Bible in accord with the Holy Spirit, others do so without the Holy Spirit, and come to a wrong conclusion.

 

[2 King]

<Edit>

 

[Standing Up]

Protestants believe this:

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In reaction to 1400 years of this:

&#8220;For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority (Ignatius to the Trallians, circa 110).

Which has led to an assortment of beliefs over the ensuing 500 years to today in ALL the Churches. Filoque, baptism, atonement, etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A right interpretation must be conformed to the Sacred Scripture. Some persons interpret the Bible in accord with the Holy Spirit, others do so without the Holy Spirit, and come to a wrong conclusion.

How do we determine who does and who doesn't interpret thru the Holy Spirit? Just curious

 

[Fixation On God]

The Bible is right. Stick to it.

Yes. But who has the right interpretation of it?

 

[2 King]

Yes. But who has the right interpretation of it?

God. Read the Bible and stick to it.

 

[Fixation On God]

God. Read the Bible and stick to it.

Which leads me to ask to whom does God reveal his interpretation? to Christians?

 

[2 King]

Which leads me to ask to whom does God reveal his interpretation? to Christians?

You got it right. To Christians.

 

[Fixation On God]

You got it right. To Christians.

That is my problem. You read it and you say that this fragment means this. I say that it does not mean this. Someone one else reads the same thing and he says that both of us are wrong because it means this.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In other words you are infallible in understanding scripture.

Only one claims such for self. The RCC.

It also is the only one who alone claims that self alone is the sole authoritative interpreter (CCC # 85).

To ignore what the Apostles thus The Word of God taught, in favour of what Luther, Calvin, Wesley, White,ad infinitum devised from Scripture alone, is a traversity of subjective truth.

You have it reversed. It is the RCC and LDS who insist, by embracing "the three-legged-stool" that it is NOT the words of Scripture alone that serve as the Rule but rather:

1. Tradition/Second Testimony as each itself declares, chooses and understanding, essentially the views of self.
2. Scripture NOT in words in any book or on any page but in the 'heart' of self alone
3. Magisterium of self as self alone chooses; the interpretations, arbitrations, understandings of self alone.
There three EQUALLY and INSEPARATELY as "one stream" "one source" "one divine, infallible revelatiion."

Friend, it is the RCC and LDS that insist on NOT looking to the words of Scripture - CERTAINLY not alone, but RATHER to the "Three-legged-stool" of self + self + self.

The Constitution of the USA is specifically written to serve as a clear dogmatic reference (unlike Scripture) yet we need Lawyers to discern it and others to rule on it - there has to be a Divinely delegated authority to make decisions on faith and morals or we have chaos as we see in multiplying Denominations.

1. The Rule of Law (similar to the Rule of Scripture, aka Sola Scriptura) states that the written LAW is the Rule, not the "tradition" of each one as each one so chooses and understands as arbitrated by self alone. It's NOT similar to "the three-legged-stool" of the RCC and LDS. And, note that the US Constitution, IN BLACK LETTERS FORMING WORDS THAT ALL CAN SEE AND READ IN A DOCUMENT, specially authorizes the Supreme Court as the final arbiter. But the Scriptures nowhere authorizes the RCC to do ANYTHING about ANYTHING. It's simply ONE denomination ceasing absolute power and control where it was NEVER given.

2. I think if you were to compare the two denominations that so boldly reject the Rule of Scripture and in stead insist on "the three legged stool" - the RCC and LDS - you'd see FAR more differences in teachings than you would comparing the LCMS and URC both using the Rule of Scripture.





To the issue before us:


From the RCC perspective....


1. The "Scripture" which the RCC "inteprets" is not found on any page or in any tome or in any documents - it is found on it's own heart. See Catholic Catechism # 113,"The Sacred Scriptures is written in the [Catholic] Church's heart rather than in documents and records."Thus, the Protestant is looking at the words God inspired - those black and white words on the page - while the RCC is looking inward at it's own "heart." So, it may well "see" things no one else can see because it is "looking" into its own heart whereas the Protestant is looking at the words inspired on the page.


2. The RCC reserves all rights, abilities and authority to interpret this Scripture to it and to it itself alone. Soly. Individually. Exclusively. See Catholic Catechism # 85,"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God whether in its written form [bible] or in the form of [RCC] Tradition has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the [Catholic] Church alone."So WHATEVER a Catholic or Orthodox or Lutheran or Baptist thinks, reads, says or interprets (individually or collectively) is entirely, completely, absolutely moot and irrelevant and nonauthoritative. The RCC reserves all authoritative interpretation soly and only to it and to it itself. It is the only voice it itself will listen to.


3. The RCC views God's Holy Scripture as simply ONE PART of God's revelation that it and it itself alone chooses, defines and interprets. See Catholic Catechism # 80,"[Catholic] Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other."CC # 82, Both Scripture and [Catholic] Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments, devotion and reverence."CC # 95,[Catholic] Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the [Catholic] Church are so connected and associated with each other that one of them cannot stand without the other."God's holy inerrant written word is just ONE part of the "three-legged-stool" (as Mormons call it). The other two parts are "Tradition" (what the CC teaches) and "CC Magisterium" (the leadership, rulings, decisions and interpretations of the Catholic Denomination). ALL of these are seen as EQUALLY divine revelation, infallable, inerrant, authoritative and normative. What God "said" in the views of the Catholic Denomination's leadership and in the Catholic Denomination's interpretation of what it chooses from the authors it chooses are JUST AS TRUE, authoritative and normative as what God said in His holy written word. God cannot contradict Himself, thus, the RCC argues, the Scripture in its heart MUST be interpreted so as to agree with the RCC's Tradition and the RCC's Leadership - or else God would be lying (and that's unthinkable). Thus, as my Catholic Deacon put it, "The [Catholic] Church must read the Bible through the lens of her Tradition and Magisterium." In other words, the RCC (which ALONE may interpret Scripture in its heart) MUST interpret the Scripture in its heart so as to agree with the RCC's own interpretation of it's own "Tradition" and "Leadership" - no matter what that takes, or else God would be lying and that just CANNOT be the case. Since the RCC's interpretation of the snippets it chooses, and the rulings of its own self are typically more expansive and clear (at least to the RCC), they provide the template to which God's Holy Word must be interpreted to "fit" to keep God out of trouble there, thus it's the "LENS" THROUGH WHICH the RCC's "reads" what is in its own heart.



I hope that helps to understand the Catholic epistemology and why the RCC may, at times, come to conclusions Protestants perhaps deem remarkable in its hermeneutic.



Pax!


- Josiah


.





To the issue before us:



.

 

[fated]

How do we determine who does and who doesn't interpret thru the Holy Spirit? Just curious

Some are relativists, and thus need not determine whether or not they have the Truth if their is a contradiction, and so leave that part behind... This is those who ask "What is truth?"

Most, however, use that which is passed on to them or that which their teacher has told them to determine what they think Truth is.

There are something like 27,000 denominations in the US, and that means that there are essentially that many different Jesus to choose from.

Truly, the way that Christian go about this is more complex. Typically, they use the guidance of some theologians and a popular vote. Many times, but not always, the popular vote has the ultimate authority. This would seem to be a type of Magesterial authority...

Beyond this, you know the discussion goes into one of faith traditions, tradition, and Tradition...

 

[MamaZ]

I have to assume you're asking me.

The Holy Spirit is trustworthy. It's our 'trust' in trusting in the Holy Spirit that's unwarranted.

It's like saying if I jump off this cliff, and I survive, it's God's will when God didn't demand you jump off the cliff. You should not put God to the test. The fact that all the 100,000's of Protestants all trusting in the Holy Spirit and coming up with division means that they, not the Holy Spirit need to have a bit of introspection.

Unless of course you believe that the Holy Spirit is the cause of the division? (Perhaps you don't believe that there's any division)

That makes no sense.. For God has not told us to jump off the cliff. We are not to tempt the Lord our God. Only those to whom have had their eyes opened to understand the scriptures that are able to understand the things of God for a natural man cannot they are foolishness to them.
1Co 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Co 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Co 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[2 King]

That is my problem. You read it and you say that this fragment means this. I say that it does not mean this. Someone one else reads the same thing and he says that both of us are wrong because it means this.

Stick to the Bible. Listen...Jesus said that His sheep hear HIS voice and follow HIM, right?
The Bible is God's (Jesus') word, right? The Bible is God's (Jesus') word, right? Jesus said Christians hear his voice and follow HIM, right? Where is Jesus' voice found? Is it in sacred tradition? Is it in my words? Where is Jesus' voice found?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some are relativists, and thus need not determine whether or not they have the Truth if their is a contradiction, and so leave that part behind... This is those who ask "What is truth?"

Most, however, use that which is passed on to them or that which their teacher has told them to determine what they think Truth is.

There are something like 27,000 denominations in the US, and that means that there are essentially that many different Jesus to choose from.

Truly, the way that Christian go about this is more complex. Typically, they use the guidance of some theologians and a popular vote. Many times, but not always, the popular vote has the ultimate authority. This would seem to be a type of Magesterial authority...

Beyond this, you know the discussion goes into one of faith traditions, tradition, and Tradition...

Yes, I hear that all the time on the GT board by the RCs

 

[Fixation On God]

Stick to the Bible. Listen...Jesus said that His sheep hear HIS voice and follow HIM, right?

right.

The Bible is God's (Jesus') word, right?

yeah.

Jesus said Christians hear his voice and follow HIM, right?

Right

Where is Jesus' voice found?Is it in sacred tradition? Is it in my words? Where is Jesus' voice found?

In the Bible and in those who are filled with Holy Spirit.