Catholics arrested during mass in Saudi Arabia

[JimR-OCDS]

More than that, we are called to love our enemies, and to forgive those who have injured us.

If we cannot forgive, then our many sins will not be forgiven us. In the measure that we do forgive, our sins will be forgiven. This is a hard saying. However, lack of forgiveness puts us into a state of misery, yes, even Hell on earth.

Lord have mercy on us and save us from ourselves.

BTW, Have you ever read Father Nouman (spelling?). I think he died not too long ago. He wrote some excellent books on healing and forgiveness. The two are so connected. I read almost all of his earlier books as my Catholic confessor at that time highly recommended this author.

Of course this does not mean we don't speak out against intolerance and even enact laws that prohibit the intolerance by the intolerant.

Jim

 

[G-Com]

 

[MariaRegina]

Ok, the priest who wrote the book was Father Henri Nouwen.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Henri Jozef Machiel Nouwen (Nouen), (Nijkerk, January 24, 1932 – Hilversum, September 21, 1996) was a Dutch-born Catholic priest and writer who authored 40 books on the spiritual life.


I still prefer to use the verb phrase from the Bible: "love your enemies"


You can tolerate pain or your mother-in-law, but that toleration is just enduring it, not really showing love.
It is smiling when obnoxious people are in your presence, but breathing a sigh of relief when they are gone.
Therefore, these tolerant people could be called hypocrites. They do not show true love.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just showing how the dictionary definition of tolerance is not the same as "love."

And now we are going off topic.

So yes, many Muslims in Saudi Arabic are probably decent people, and they tolerate Christians by largely ignoring them.
It is the few hateful extremists who try to kill Christians.
They are the ones who truly need our prayers and our love.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

MariaRegina

So yes, many Muslims in Saudi Arabic are probably decent people, and they tolerate Christians by largely ignoring them.

Oh, its more than just ignore Christians, it against the law to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia. When you arrive at customs, they search your luggage. Bibles and other Christian symbols are confiscated and destroyed. If you refuse to hand these items over to the Saudi Customs Agent, you're not allowed into the country.

Loving one's enemy doesn't mean we are silent toward injustice.

In fact, to remain silent could be committing the sin of omission.

We can love our enemy, but when we see him oppressing another human being, we don't remain tolerant by being silent.

They made this mistake in Holland when they allowed in large numbers of Muslims from Somalia. In the name of tolerance, they didn't respond to women being beaten, because in Somalia Islamic culture, a man beating his wife is perfectly legitimate. However, after several women were beaten to death, the Dutch law enforcement officials had to begin enforcing Dutch law.

We don't have to tolerate the intolerant when their tradition is immoral.

Jim

 

[MariaRegina]

MariaRegina


Oh, its more than just ignore Christians, it against the law to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia. When you arrive at customs, they search your luggage. Bibles and other Christian symbols are confiscated and destroyed. If you refuse to hand these items over to the Saudi Customs Agent, you're not allowed into the country.

Loving one's enemy doesn't mean we are silent toward injustice.

In fact, to remain silent could be committing the sin of omission.

We can love our enemy, but when we see him oppressing another human being, we don't remain tolerant by being silent.

They made this mistake in Holland when they allowed in large numbers of Muslims from Somalia. In the name of tolerance, they didn't respond to women being beaten, because in Somalia Islamic culture, a man beating his wife is perfectly legitimate. However, after several women were beaten to death, the Dutch law enforcement officials had to begin enforcing Dutch law.

We don't have to tolerate the intolerant when their tradition is immoral.

Jim

Again, this is the reason why I do not prefer the use of the word "toleration."
It is not a Christian virtue, and never has been.

Whether the Saudi Muslims tolerate or do not tolerate Christians, is really NOT the question. If the Saudi Muslims are tolerating us, they are ignoring us. If they are not tolerating us, then they are actively persecuting/killing us.

And we in return must truly love them and preach Christ to them by our love and our lives. We cannot merely tolerate them or be intolerant, as that would violate the law of love given to us by Christ Himself. Should not we as Catholics be willing to offer our lives if a Muslim is in danger of death and our actions could save them?

Think about that.

For example, if an innocent Muslim child is in danger of death because a big truck is bearing down on him/her, wouldn't you risk your own life to save him or her? It is this kind of love that gives a positive witness of our calling as Christians.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) for the Catholic teaching on this matter. Indeed, according to several Eastern Orthodox Bishops and Priests from different jurisdictions, including Father Thomas Hopko of the OCA, the CCC is well written and there are no theological errors in it.

I now understand why there is so much division in the Christian Coptic Church in Egypt and in other Muslim nations.

The Bishops there are preaching love, but some of the Christians are preaching hatred.
Because of the love being shown by Christians in Muslim lands, thousands of Muslims are coming to Christ every year.
They remain as part of the underground and suffering Church. Looking at these Christians, one might suspect that they are Muslims, but they are Christians who cannot tell their relatives or friends. Otherwise, they would be martyred for the true faith.

Coptic Christians and Saudi Christians know this. If they were to engage the Muslims in mortal combat, thousands of these secret Christians would be killed.

I am a member of the Antiochian Eastern Orthodox "Catholic" Church. Many of my brethren in Syria and in Lebanon find themselves in a Muslim land where their freedoms are being restricted, and where the opportunity to evangelize is everywhere present, but this opportunity also provides the very possibility of martyrdom.

 

[Franze]

The modern world and the complexity of it is destroying islam, because the internal critics and the lack of comprehension about reason and faith in islam is killing it, of course they try to stop it and live without it but it´s impossible, the end of islam is near, surely, we won´t see mass conversions to catholicism but lack of religion, yes.
Islam cannot live in modernity. Chistianity live with difficult, but islam cannot.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

MariaRegina,
but lets be sure we're using the same definition for the word,
"tolerate."


tol·er·ate
tol·er·at·ed, tol·er·at·ing, tol·er·ates 1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure

So, the Saudi's don't tolerate Christianity by ignoring Christians, instead they outright prohibit Christianity in their country
and oppress those who attempt to practice their beliefs, even in the privacy of their hotel rooms.

To tolerate means that you respect the rights and practices of others. Love and respect are hand in hand.

Jim

 

[MariaRegina]

tol·er·ate
tol·er·at·ed, tol·er·at·ing, tol·er·ates 1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure


Toleration has never been a Christian virtue, no matter what definition is applied.
The Saudi Muslim government and most Muslims can truly say that they are tolerant because they do put up with the Christians and endure them (definition 3, the minimum).

The extremists in the Saudi government, the Saudi police who torture Christians, and the extremists who carry out attacks on Christians are not being tolerant. That is obvious.

Since toleration is not a Christian virtue, I think it is best not to use that definition.
However, we can expect non-Christians to tolerate Christians (any definition of that word). Since they do not know Christ, how can they be expected to show Christian love? On the other hand, we who have been purified, sanctified, and illuminated do know Christ and should forgive and love our enemies and all who do not profess the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Muslims tolerate Christians?
It doesn't seem so - according to the OP.

I don't want to get into this topic for the gajillionith time... but Muslims hate Christianity. Read the Haddiths, and the Koran.

It's one thing to love your enemy and pray for them, it's another to to allow them to kill, maim, butcher, and/or oppress any faith outside of their own as well as the people who believe that faith which is outside of Islam.

So we may pray for them, and pray they convert [and i have seen some wonderful youtube videos of Muslims who have converted] but we cannot turn away from this monstrosity and let Christianity die. This is how the crusades began - Muslims went after the Churches...killed many...robbed them...and took over their Holy Churches.
[After robbing the property - they have audacity to be enraged about anyone wanting them back]

Why - if i may ask - are the Muslims right but not the Christians who are minding their own business?

Loving someone does not mean we do not recognize they need help...and act in ways that are inexcusable to a civil society.

May God convert their hard hearts to be loving to others in spite of their faith.
And may He convert them to Christ their Lord.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

tol·er·ate
tol·er·at·ed, tol·er·at·ing, tol·er·ates 1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure


Toleration has never been a Christian virtue, no matter what definition is applied.
The Saudi Muslim government and most Muslims can truly say that they are tolerant because they do put up with the Christians and endure them (definition 3, the minimum).

The extremists in the Saudi government, the Saudi police who torture Christians, and the extremists who carry out attacks on Christians are not being tolerant. That is obvious.

Since toleration is not a Christian virtue, I think it is best not to use that definition.
However, we can expect non-Christians to tolerate Christians (any definition of that word). Since they do not know Christ, how can they be expected to show Christian love? On the other hand, we who have been purified, sanctified, and illuminated do know Christ and should forgive and love our enemies and all who do not profess the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith.

I would think that tolerance is a virute that comes under both justice and charity.

1805 Four virtues play a pivotal role and accordingly are called "cardinal"; all the others are grouped around them. They are: prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. "If anyone loves righteousness, [Wisdom's] labors are virtues; for she teaches temperance and prudence, justice, and courage." These virtues are praised under other names in many passages of Scripture.


Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the "virtue of religion." Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good. The just man, often mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, is distinguished by habitual right thinking and the uprightness of his conduct toward his neighbor. "You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor."68 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven."69



Charity 1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.

 

[AMDG]

Charity 1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.

But somehow what seems to be forgotten is that our neighbor is loved as ourselves for the love of God. It is not "tolerate anything because that's nice". If we really love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God, we act in truth toward him, wishing him God's best, just as we wish ourselves well. We pray for him. We don't just tolerate anything our neighbor does.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But somehow what seems to be forgotten is that our neighbor is loved as ourselves for the love of God. It is not "tolerate anything because that's nice". If we really love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God, we act in truth toward him, wishing him God's best, just as we wish ourselves well. We pray for him. We don't just tolerate anything our neighbor does.

Of course we don't just tolerate anything our neighbor does, but we're talking about toleration with respect to the religious beliefs of others.


Jim

 

[MariaRegina]

But somehow what seems to be forgotten is that our neighbor is loved as ourselves for the love of God. It is not "tolerate anything because that's nice". If we really love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God, we act in truth toward him, wishing him God's best, just as we wish ourselves well. We pray for him. We don't just tolerate anything our neighbor does.

I agree, AMDG.

Toleration is a masonic thing. It comes from a minimalistic approach. It does not call us to do heroic things for the love of God and our neighbor.

Christianity, on the other hand, calls us to follow the example of Christ, who loved us so much that He died on the Cross to save us.

 

[outOftheLoop]

Following up on Wolfgang Grassl's column this morning, where he argues that the picture of Christianity in Europe is not as bleak as it seems, comes this news story to remind me that it could be so, so much worse:

Saudi police raided a secret Catholic mass in Riyadh last week and arrested a dozen Filipinos and a Catholic priest, charging them with prosyletising, a local daily reported on Wednesday.

The raid took place as some 150 Filipinos were attending the mass in a Riyadh rest house on Friday, the second day of the weekend in Saudi Arabia, Arab News said.

The twelve Filipino men and the priest, whose nationality was not specified, were "charged with prosyletising," the daily quoted an official from the Philippine embassy in Riyadh as saying.

The men have been released "on guarantees by sponsors or embassies," the report notes. How generous.

[URL]http://www.insidecatholic.com/myblog/catholics-arrested-during-mass-in-saudi-arabia.html[/URL]

does this mean no more Masses???? or they willget worse treatment?

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

I think it is sad that there are places in the world that don't allow people to practice the Catholic Faith.
One thing, though, if you support the right of Catholics to freely worship in every country, how do you feel about people of different faiths worshiping freely in the US?

If a person wanted to build a mosque in your neighborhood, would you be OK with that? (IIRC, a mosque construction site was targeted by arsonists recently, and it wasn't the NYC one, so not all Americans are comfortable with Muslims worshiping openly).

A few years ago, a school board member in my town proposed banning the wearing of pentagram jewelry. Crosses were OK at the school, but the person who brought the lawsuit noted that a number of students were wearing the pentagrams and feared they were supporting a pagan religion. Should pagans be free to express their faith the same way as Christians? (there's ongoing legislation I believe about whether or not pagan soldiers can have a symbol on their grave representing their faith the same as Christians and Jews do).

We even expect that government institutions will close on days that we celebrate major Christian holidays. We have our traditional days off (the weekends) to correspond with when many people worship. Should the fast at the end of Ramadan be a national holiday? Should school children get Friday afternoons off so that they can worship if their religion calls for it?

(One of the things I found really interesting about working and living in the Middle East is that the typical weekend is on Friday and Saturday, and Sunday is the first day of the work week.) So, it's a bit more challenging to make it to Sunday mass....you have to realize that not all countries in the Middle East are like Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, for instance, there are a number of different churches.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I still prefer to use the verb phrase from the Bible: "love your enemies"

We can love our enemies while still keeping them in our sight.