Can Universalism be refuted without using the word "aiōnion"?

[Light of the East]

I see a lot of commentary but NO scripture supporting them. I did NOT add any unscriptural commentary to the 26 vss, I quoted. And nothing has been posted which addresses the 26 vss, I quoted.

I am still interested in why the "Good News" (i.e. "Gospel") of God's all-inclusive salvation gets your knickers in such a knot. Why aren't you just happy to death with the idea that God will save everyone, some in this life through their repentance and some in the next life through a painful but finite experience of His love burning away their sins. Why does this bother you so much?

 

[TahitiRun]

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Col 1:16 NLT For THROUGH him(Elohim-creative word of God) God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created THROUGH him and for him.

I understand where you're going with this, and why you think as you do. However, the grammar and syntax of Gal 3:27 is quite different from that of Col 1:16. The only way I can demonstrate this is by using the Greek text, so here it is, with my comments:

Gal 3:27 ὅσοι γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν ἐβαπτίσθητε, Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε.

In Gal 3:27 YLT, the conjunctive particle "γὰρ" proceeds the preposition "εἰς" and expresses the reason or purpose for being baptized. The preposition "εἰς", in this particular case, means unto/to Christ, not "into" as often translated. The reason for this is that those through faith in Christ (v.26) were baptized "to" Christ, that is: to "put on" (ἐνεδύσασθε) Christ, as stated in the final clause.

In Col 1:16 YLT, the grammar and syntax are really altogether different. The conjunction "ὅτι" is demonstrative and is used to express whom the Person/object is with respect to the creation act. The preposition "ἐν" is used to express the spatial relationship of creation to that Person/object.

The term used to express that relationship is "ἐν" and means "in" with regards to where creation took place, not "through" as shown in the NLT. The idea of creation being "through" Christ IS also expressed in the text but comes later in the final clause by using the preposition "δι'", also shown here:

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·.

Each of these prepositions (ἐν, δι᾿, εἰς, etc.) express different ideas/concepts and should not be conflated as you're attempting to do.

What's obvious (at least to me) is that you're using or searching for translations to validate your doctrines/dogma. The NLT, as it's name suggests, is a very loosely paraphrased translation (at best).

As a suggestion, and something I've also learned, is that we should change our doctrines/dogma when scripture requires it.

 

[Samson2021]

I understand where you're going with this, and why you think as you do. However, the grammar and syntax of Gal 3:27 is quite different from that of Col 1:16. The only way I can demonstrate this is by using the Greek text, so here it is, with my comments:

Gal 3:27 ὅσοι γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν ἐβαπτίσθητε, Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε.

In Gal 3:27 YLT, the conjunctive particle "γὰρ" proceeds the preposition "εἰς" and expresses the reason or purpose for being baptized. The preposition "εἰς", in this particular case, means unto/to Christ, not "into" as often translated. The reason for this is that those through faith in Christ (v.26) were baptized "to" Christ, that is: to "put on" (ἐνεδύσασθε) Christ, as stated in the final clause.

In Col 1:16 YLT, the grammar and syntax are really altogether different. The conjunction "ὅτι" is demonstrative and is used to express whom the Person/object is with respect to the creation act. The preposition "ἐν" is used to express the spatial relationship of creation to that Person/object.

The term used to express that relationship is "ἐν" and means "in" with regards to where creation took place, not "through" as shown in the NLT. The idea of creation being "through" Christ IS also expressed in the text but comes later in the final clause by using the preposition "δι'", also shown here:

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·.

Each of these prepositions (ἐν, δι᾿, εἰς, etc.) express different ideas/concepts and should not be conflated as you're attempting to do.

What's obvious (at least to me) is that you're using or searching for translations to validate your doctrines/dogma. The NLT, as it's name suggests, is a very loosely paraphrased translation (at best).

As a suggestion, and something I've also learned, is that we should change our doctrines/dogma when scripture requires it.

Once again "As in Adam ALL die, even so In Christ SHALL all be made alive".

As all have not yet been made alive, they are not IN CHRIST yet.

 

[Light of the East]

I understand where you're going with this, and why you think as you do. However, the grammar and syntax of Gal 3:27 is quite different from that of Col 1:16. The only way I can demonstrate this is by using the Greek text, so here it is, with my comments:

Gal 3:27 ὅσοι γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν ἐβαπτίσθητε, Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε.

In Gal 3:27 YLT, the conjunctive particle "γὰρ" proceeds the preposition "εἰς" and expresses the reason or purpose for being baptized. The preposition "εἰς", in this particular case, means unto/to Christ, not "into" as often translated. The reason for this is that those through faith in Christ (v.26) were baptized "to" Christ, that is: to "put on" (ἐνεδύσασθε) Christ, as stated in the final clause.

In Col 1:16 YLT, the grammar and syntax are really altogether different. The conjunction "ὅτι" is demonstrative and is used to express whom the Person/object is with respect to the creation act. The preposition "ἐν" is used to express the spatial relationship of creation to that Person/object.

The term used to express that relationship is "ἐν" and means "in" with regards to where creation took place, not "through" as shown in the NLT. The idea of creation being "through" Christ IS also expressed in the text but comes later in the final clause by using the preposition "δι'", also shown here:

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·.

Each of these prepositions (ἐν, δι᾿, εἰς, etc.) express different ideas/concepts and should not be conflated as you're attempting to do.

What's obvious (at least to me) is that you're using or searching for translations to validate your doctrines/dogma. The NLT, as it's name suggests, is a very loosely paraphrased translation (at best).

As a suggestion, and something I've also learned, is that we should change our doctrines/dogma when scripture requires it.

Ah, yes, but perhaps you could answer me this: how did the Greek-speaking Christians of the first several centuries of the Church come to believe that this verse speaks of being baptized "into" Christ?

This is the problem with "scholarship" that is 2,000 years removed from the Christians who had to figure this out in the beginning. Words and meanings change over the years, along with translations. For example, in the 1920's, if you saw a young chap and said of him, "Now there's a gay fellow," you would be speaking of a man who was a cheerful and happy chap. Now, the same phrase means that he indulges in homosexual behavior. The meaning of "gay" as happy and cheerful has been entirely lost to our language.

It also seems to work this way with some of the atrocious translations in Western Christian Bibles. For instance, the word "aion" being translated as "world" in Matthew 24:3, which reading gave rise to the whole teaching and idea that Matthew 24 is about the end of the world when Jesus is speaking rather of the end of the "age" (aion). This mistranslation led to the development of Premillenialism and the false "Rapture of the Church" that so many are still standing around looking upwards and expecting at any moment.

This is just one example of many of badly misinterpreted Greek words.

Look, I'm no scholar and I do not know Greek the way you have obviously been trained to understand it. But I'm just wondering if over the centuries, the meaning has changed so that what you know is actually something that is in error due to errors being handed down.

Just wondering - your response will be appreciated.

 

[TahitiRun]

Once again "As in Adam ALL die, even so In Christ SHALL all be made alive".

As all have not yet been made alive, they are not IN CHRIST yet.

The text quoted, however, does not preclude anyone from being in Christ. Even the unregenerate are "in Christ". And Paul tells us this through the use of two texts, shown here:

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin,

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Jesus was crucified one time only. And when Jesus was crucified, Paul (or rather Saul at the time), as well as you and I, hung on the cross with Him. The reason Paul could say this is that Paul, as well as you and I, were created "in Him" (Col 1:16) and consequently when Jesus was crucified we were also crucified "with Him".

 

[TahitiRun]

Ah, yes, but perhaps you could answer me this: how did the Greek-speaking Christians of the first several centuries of the Church come to believe that this verse speaks of being baptized "into" Christ?

Through the idea of baptismal regeneration. It's a doctrine/dogma that's hard to let go of. I don't personally hold to that idea, but I understand why others do.

 

[cfposter]

The reason for water baptism is that it is a type. In this type, the water is a type of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the MANIFESTATION of the Holy Spirit in Flesh.

 

[Light of the East]

Through the idea of baptismal regeneration. It's a doctrine/dogma that's hard to let go of. I don't personally hold to that idea, but I understand why others do.

Yes, but we are talking about people who were discipled by the Apostles and taught that baptism regenerates:

Justin Martyr​

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Hermas​

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Cyril of Jerusalem​

“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom. . . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Samson2021]

Yes, but we are talking about people who were discipled by the Apostles and taught that baptism regenerates:

Justin Martyr​

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Hermas​

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Cyril of Jerusalem​

“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom. . . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Personally I was water baptized 3 times. It was only the baptism in the Holy Spirit that actually changed my nature permanently.
It is that baptism that Jesus does that actually means anything. The water is just symbolic.
As Paul stated there is ONE baptism, which is it? Water or Holy Ghost that brings one to life in the Spirit?
Never saw anybody water baptized who started to speak in tongues, but from experience Holy Ghost baptism will bring tongues with it.

Not arguing against water baptism just saying the anointing is with the Holy Ghost baptism.

 

[cfposter]

Water Baptism cannot be required for Salvation. Think about it - The Father is Spirit and requires us to worship Him in Spirit. Therefore, the water baptism is just a helper. It is a symbolic instruction to show us to be immersed into the Holy Spirit.

Therefore what is Spiritual cannot require what is earthly or natural as a right of passage. But see this is exactly the problem the Pharisees had for they took the image (Law) of the Heavenly and required its observance as a right of passage. They made the laws in letters as the item OF worship instead of seeing that the true worship belongs to the intent of those laws. For the intent was Love, Life, Liberty and those ARE GOD.

 

[JSRG]

It also seems to work this way with some of the atrocious translations in Western Christian Bibles. For instance, the word "aion" being translated as "world" in Matthew 24:3, which reading gave rise to the whole teaching and idea that Matthew 24 is about the end of the world when Jesus is speaking rather of the end of the "age" (aion). This mistranslation led to the development of Premillenialism and the false "Rapture of the Church" that so many are still standing around looking upwards and expecting at any moment.

The claim this translation lead to premillennialism and the rapture of the church doesn't make sense. Premillennialism can be found in some early Christian writings, including Greek speakers who obviously would not have been confused by a translation (e.g. Justin Martyr explicitly affirming belief in it in Chapter 80 of Dialogue with Trypho: "I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."). Perhaps you mean a specific later version of premillennialism, but you simply say "premillennialism" without qualification.

It doesn't make much sense to blame the rapture on that either. While it is true that rapture belief, at least the more modern idea of it, post-dates the KJV's rendering of "world", the man who can be primarily credited for the rapture of the church is John Nelson Darby. And he interpreted it as age. We know this because it's in his translation of the New Testament:

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:3 - Darby Translation

And as he was sitting upon the mount of Olives the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be, and what is the sign of thy coming and [the] completion of the age?

www.biblegateway.com

And as he was sitting upon the mount of Olives the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be, and what is the sign of thy coming and [the] completion of the age?

It doesn't seem to make sense to claim that a mistranslation of age as world led to him coming up with the rapture idea, because Darby clearly recognized the word as meaning age.

 

[Der Alte]

I am still interested in why the "Good News" (i.e. "Gospel") of God's all-inclusive salvation gets your knickers in such a knot. Why aren't you just happy to death with the idea that God will save everyone, some in this life through their repentance and some in the next life through a painful but finite experience of His love burning away their sins. Why does this bother you so much?

Tell you what amigo. You post a reasonable response to my post and I will reciprocate.

 

[Der Alte]

To briefly answer your questions.
Vs 23 is only addressing those who are Christs at the end of this age or dispensationof time
When Christ comes He will reign on the earth for only 1000 yrs. Then we start the second period of death.
In which another crop of fruits is to be matured and harvested.
...

Unfortunately I don't see any scripture supporting any of this.

 

[TahitiRun]

Yes, but we are talking about people who were discipled by the Apostles and taught that baptism regenerates:

However, what the apostles taught and what their disciples may have heard (or perhaps were willing to hear) are two different things. For example, John, as well as Jesus, taught that regeneration was monergistic, here:

Joh 1:13 who—not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but—of God were begotten.

In my mind, this text eliminates the concept of baptismal regeneration. With water baptism, you have a person who willingly administrates the sacrament (a will of man) and a subject that willingly receives the sacrament (a will of the flesh). Those two conditions are negated by the text.

Also of note, the Greek verb John uses for being regenerated/begotten ("ἐγεννήθησαν") is in the passive voice. There are no active participants deciding "when, where and how" this act is to take place, other than God. This makes the idea of regeneration wholly monergistic and outside the hands or influence of man. Jesus affirms this also, here:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

And yet, we have all the quotes to the contrary that you've provided us. It simply shows that Scripture is not univocal.

 

[Der Alte]

I am still interested in why the "Good News" (i.e. "Gospel") of God's all-inclusive salvation gets your knickers in such a knot. Why aren't you just happy to death with the idea that God will save everyone, some in this life through their repentance and some in the next life through a painful but finite experience of His love burning away their sins. Why does this bother you so much?

Why do you reject the words of Jesus which I quoted earlier.in post #3 Here are 2 of 10 vss.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[Samson2021]

Why do you reject the words of Jesus which I quoted earlier.in post #3 Here are 2 of 10 vss.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

And who is whosoever? They are the ones that God has chosen to believe for now and then eventually all as He is in control of the order
in which each believes. He must give the faith and love of Jesus Christ to each person as His justification of them. It cannot be something
you earn as none deserve it no matter what they may do. Repent all you want but that doesn't make one an elect.

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods elect? It is God that justifies" Rom 8:33
They do not justify themselves, they have no righteousness of their own as Paul states in Phl 3:9- Not having mine own righteousness..........
You can't get more justified than the justification God gives you by giving you faith and love that come from Jesus Christ.
You can't get more righteous than the righteousness that God imputes upon those who are gifted salvation.

You can do your best to overcome the flesh, carnal mind, sin etc... but it doesn't justify any more than already done, nor does it
make one more righteous. Except maybe in their own minds. Self righteousness, self-justification. The carnal mind just can't accept
that it was given to you, you must earn it.

1 Ti 4:10-11 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach because we believe in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN,
specially those that believe.
These things command and teach.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and UPON all those that believe
for there is no difference.

First of all God must save all men in order for 1 Ti 4:10 to be true. Those that already are know that. Paul tells Timothy to command that
very thing. Then reiterates it in Rom 3:22 that only those to whom the faith is UPON are the believers for now, but the faith is to ALL.
When they are given salvation through faith is entirely up to the Father. Vessels of mercy vs vessels to destruction, His choice.
Thing is God is able to raise from the dead everybody and as often as He might want. So destruction is not eternal, it is life time lasting.
When considering 1 Co 15:23 But every man in his own order............ this does not leave any man out. But there is an order to the resurrection.
Jesus Christ first-2,000 yrs ago, then those who have the faith upon them(gods elect) at Jesus' coming. There will be others as the EVERY MAN
was not yet be fulfilled, and Eph 1:10 tells us the same thing That in the dispensation of the fullness of the TIMES He might gather together in
one (body) all things in Christ.............. And reiterates that in Eph 2:14-16

Since it is God that does the electing, and you have nothing wherewith to boast about as it is a gift then how can anyone earn it? They can't
as it is all about His working out His will.
Those that believe are those that He has already shown mercy to, those that don't are still under condemnation. And both are His choice
for them at the present time.
So whosoever is Gods elect.

 

[Der Alte]

And who is whosoever? They are the ones that God has chosen to believe for now and then eventually all as He is in control of the order in which each believes. He must give the faith and love of Jesus Christ to each person as His justification of them. It cannot be something
you earn as none deserve it no matter what they may do. Repent all you want but that doesn't make one an elect.

Unfortunately you have not provided any scriputure to support this.

 

[Der Alte]

And who is whosoever? They are the ones that God has chosen to believe for now and then eventually all as He is in control of the order
in which each believes. He must give the faith and love of Jesus Christ to each person as His justification of them. It cannot be something
you earn as none deserve it no matter what they may do. Repent all you want but that doesn't make one an elect.

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods elect? It is God that justifies" Rom 8:33
They do not justify themselves, they have no righteousness of their own as Paul states in Phl 3:9- Not having mine own righteousness..........
You can't get more justified than the justification God gives you by giving you faith and love that come from Jesus Christ.
You can't get more righteous than the righteousness that God imputes upon those who are gifted salvation.

You can do your best to overcome the flesh, carnal mind, sin etc... but it doesn't justify any more than already done, nor does it
make one more righteous. Except maybe in their own minds. Self righteousness, self-justification. The carnal mind just can't accept
that it was given to you, you must earn it.

1 Ti 4:10-11 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach because we believe in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN,
specially those that believe.
These things command and teach.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and UPON all those that believe
for there is no difference.

First of all God must save all men in order for 1 Ti 4:10 to be true. Those that already are know that. Paul tells Timothy to command that
very thing. Then reiterates it in Rom 3:22 that only those to whom the faith is UPON are the believers for now, but the faith is to ALL.
When they are given salvation through faith is entirely up to the Father. Vessels of mercy vs vessels to destruction, His choice.
Thing is God is able to raise from the dead everybody and as often as He might want. So destruction is not eternal, it is life time lasting.
When considering 1 Co 15:23 But every man in his own order............ this does not leave any man out. But there is an order to the resurrection.
Jesus Christ first-2,000 yrs ago, then those who have the faith upon them(gods elect) at Jesus' coming. There will be others as the EVERY MAN
was not yet be fulfilled, and Eph 1:10 tells us the same thing That in the dispensation of the fullness of the TIMES He might gather together in
one (body) all things in Christ.............. And reiterates that in Eph 2:14-16

Since it is God that does the electing, and you have nothing wherewith to boast about as it is a gift then how can anyone earn it? They can't
as it is all about His working out His will.
Those that believe are those that He has already shown mercy to, those that don't are still under condemnation. And both are His choice
for them at the present time.
So whosoever is Gods elect.

These vss. seem to me to say that not everyone will be saved.
Jeremiah 13:10-11
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:12-15
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-24
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Samson2021]

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the REST WERE BLINDED.

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Just the flesh as they are vessels of dishonor made to destruction. Rom 9 And we are right back to your not being able to differentiate
the second death as to its true purpose or meaning.
Even though the flesh is destroyed the spirit of the human returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the spirit is returned to the body
to begin again at the same place it was, spiritually speaking, that is why they are judged according to works.
The mount of Esau is the population that was not of the elect in the first death.
God cannot give life to just the elect as the death of Jesus paid for life for all, its just a matter of when. Second death, maybe later.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

As mentioned before those are the ones who thought they were born of the Spirit but never were(accepters/not elect) and therefore
preached another Jesus, Liars,(workers of Iniquity) and those He never gave life to in the first place thus He never knew them.

 

[cfposter]

We now have less than 17 years until the return of Christ. As a Universalist, I believe universalism is at the core of the Gospel. I encourage all people to repent and for universalists to further expand your messaging. Many are now getting meat in due season.