Can Universalism be Christian?

Hillsage

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Ouch!:( I think you misread Geralt's remarks Brother. They were describing what Universalism teaches. Not stating what they believe. Maybe read their post again?
I'll be the first to admit that I can miss something in this 'format', especially when it's someone new to the Forum as well as the thread. But as I went back and reread the post again, I'm still not quite seeing what I "misread". If you still think I erred, please enlighten me if you still disagree.
 
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Deadworm

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Albion: "All of this...includes an assumption that hasn't been proven--that heaven cannot 'tolerate the presence of wicked souls.'...If Hell is a way of cleansing or rehabilitating, are former inhabitants still wicked?"

You have missed my point that ministry to the damned in Hell can potentially make them beneficiaries of God's grace and of spiritual transformation. In that case, they would no longer be wicked and the question of Heaven's tolerance of such would be meaningless. So Albion, lay out YOUR case for Hell as a postmortem reform school in which the wicked are cleansed and rehabilitated.
 
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Cush

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Well, I believe it's possible that all humans can be saved if we but ask for this.

John 17:9 -I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
 
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Cush

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I see no reason why God's love for sinners, & efforts to save them, ends at the point of their passing out of this life.

The Calvinist will say re 1 Tim.2:4 "all men" means "all [kinds of] men", just the elect, or some such nonsense.

The Arminian will try to weasle out of it as well. Maybe say God wishes all people to be saved, but if they die without Christ in this life, His hands are tied. They've chosen eternal hell fire.

It's a good topic.

The Calvinist are right, given their interpretation actually includes the context. The words "ransom for all" in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 are clearly set in the context of prayers being offered for all kinds of people (vv. 1-2). Since the word all does not always mean all individuals in either Greek or English usage, there is no compelling reason to conclude that the all in verses 4 and 6 refers to every single person. https://www.christforums.org/forum/...atonement-of-christ-unlimited?p=1866#post1866
 
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Hillsage

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That isn't Universalism. Universalism is the belief that there will be no damnation for anyone, no matter what--
I can only say this is a Maloney malarkey understanding of reconciliation also. We do believe in judgment..for everyone who sinned...even Mother Mary, to the chagrin of my Catholic brethren. As for your "damnation" sentence, find that in your favorite bible translation for me.

all will ultimately be reconciled with God and salvation and paradise will be universal.
More malarkey.

Please quote me scripture saying man IS NOT RECONCILED WITH God now...to counter my verses which says the opposite;

2CO 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God WAS reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

So, do you not see that WE ARE reconciled to God before ever coming to God with our 'trespasses and sins'? And because of the reconciling work of Christ we are reconciled to God and 'our ministry' is to tell people that very fact. The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world 'including yours' and 'YOU ARE FORGIVEN/reconciled'. That is the GOOD NEWS GOSPEL.

So just accept GOD....not TO BE FORGIVEN...but to experience His forgiveness and then to begin to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". And you will most likely do that on this side of glory until the day you die, or he returns just like Christians for the last two millennia. And when He does come, even then, in the next age, even you will still go through the final purgative saving fire which will complete what you, in your rebellion AS A CHRISTIAN kept you from 'conforming to the image of the stature of the FULLNESS of CHRIST in you.'
 
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LaSorcia

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LaSorcia,

LaSorcia, what is your reaction to my rationale? Do you want a separate thread that makes the case that Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John (in Revelation) all teach the theoretical possibility of universal release from Hell? Or do you want every relevant text to be analyzed and debated on your thread? What do you want?

I'm just happy with discussion of the ideas. :)
 
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Razare

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For the time being people are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the ages past, that gospel was not revealed.

In the future, this gospel of Christ is sealed off and people are saved by submitting to the Messiah (Jesus) who rules Earth.

"Eternal fire" is the place people go who are lost, after the white throne judgement. Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10 ... Now, I looked up "everlasting" in Greek. In the Greek that word means everlasting, without beginning or end. Infinity is another way to understand.

For the infinite period of time into the future, those people are tormented in fire. It's very cruel, but justice is cruel to those it condemns. In the US, we have an amendment against "cruel and unusual punishment"... but you see, the US law can only ever execute a person under capital punishment. The US government holds no authority to destroy spirits that God created.

Likewise, God being good, does not destroy in a way which would be evil. Eternal fire is the result. It's a compromise God is forced into, not his perfect will.

That's why it's highly highly deceptive and dangerous to teach against eternal judgement (a judgement that lasts forever, for an infinite period of time). God is comprising into permissive will with this judgement in the first place... to assume he has some hidden escape that he never told anyone about is just a lie. It's a lie because it would have to be a superior gospel to Jesus Christ to save a person from everlasting fire once they are in it.

And even if there were a gospel, how do you deliver it into the eternal fire for people to choose to receive it? Only the lost without such power and good news of God would be dwelling in the fire.

Now, "they paid their time" in human law seems good. Problem is if you are a murderer incarnate, and your very being is murder and lies... then God can judge that forever. God judges the heart, not the deed. If you have murder in your heart, you burn. And that condition will never change for those in the fire, because only the gospel of Christ could ever change it, and that gospel will not be available.

So 1,000,000 years into the ordeal, the murderer is still murdering in his heart because he cannot change his nature. And God eternally judges that murder is still murder, and this does not change.
 
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Cush

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The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world 'including yours' and 'YOU ARE FORGIVEN/reconciled'. That is the GOOD NEWS GOSPEL.
This is where a whole can of worms is opened up. Either Jesus atoned for the sins of everyone (universalism), Jesus atoned for only the sins of those that Chose to believe in Jesus (and some blood went to waste towards those that didn't), or Jesus atoned only for the sins of the Elect (not one drop of blood was wasted). Those are the choices, an unlimited atonement or limited atonement. One has to decide whether the atonement is insufficient or sufficient by design.

I ask that you define "world". The Bible uses many definitions when referring to the world by context. In John 3:16 for example, the word world is not used to describe a secular opposition to a Godly worldview, but instead the world is used to describe "whosoever that believes" from every tribe, tongue, and nation. That is the Elect come forth from the entire world, however, this does not mean "every single person" obviously, because the following verses goes into exactly who are excluded from a "univiersal" atonement. You asked for Scripture for those not reconciled to God. But you said "man", do you mean mankind? You provided verses 2 Col 5:18 where the word used are "us" and then "world". John 3:18 obviously excludes "some" from the world, so what have you? Obviously, this doesn't mean "all" in an absolute sense.

Lastly, "All" know is that I can't help but notice the general lack of poor herm. or to be exact the rejection of context by those that promote Universalism. Excuse the hyperbole. Obviously, it isn't "all" I know.

God bless,
Cush
 
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VanillaSunflowers

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I'll be the first to admit that I can miss something in this 'format', especially when it's someone new to the Forum as well as the thread. But as I went back and reread the post again, I'm still not quite seeing what I "misread". If you still think I erred, please enlighten me if you still disagree.

I've posted Geralt's remarks below and the quoted portion from LaSorcia since Geralt's remarks are their response to LaSorcia.

Universalism is NOT "desiring all people to be saved - which is godly."

Universalism is believing all people will be saved regardless of what they do or believe in this life. Believing Jesus is irrelevant, hell does not exist, sin is an illusion, evil is simply a negative attitude. god is all love, not just.
It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?


In my reading of this, Geralt, who can speak for themselves to clarify of course, was defining what Universalism is in that second paragraph.
"Universalism is believing all people will be saved regardless of what they do or believe in this life. Believing Jesus is irrelevant, hell does not exist, sin is an illusion, evil is simply a negative attitude. god is all love, not just."

That's not necessarily what they accept as true. It as I read it is what they understand Universalism to be.

I don't think it fair to call into question Geralt's understanding of Christianity based on that post. That's all I'm saying. :)
 
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ClementofA

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The Calvinist are right, given their interpretation actually includes the context. The words "ransom for all" in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 are clearly set in the context of prayers being offered for all kinds of people (vv. 1-2). Since the word all does not always mean all individuals in either Greek or English usage, there is no compelling reason to conclude that the all in verses 4 and 6 refers to every single person. https://www.christforums.org/forum/...atonement-of-christ-unlimited?p=1866#post1866

The words "kinds of people" is *clearly* no part of the Scriptural text of 1 Tim.2:1-6. If you want to interpret it that way, good luck! Obviously the many Arminian scholars disagree with the relatively much smaller number of Calvinist scholars on that subject.
 
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Cush

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The words "kinds of people" is *clearly* no part of the Scriptural text of 1 Tim.2:1-6. If you want to interpret it that way, good luck! Obviously the many Arminian scholars disagree with the relatively much smaller number of Calvinist scholars on that subject.

Bangs head against the keyboard. Yields to your superior herm by appealing to the majority.

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Who are the "all people" of verse 1? The "all people" of verse 1 are the same "all people" of verse 4, as the subject matter does not change in any way at all in the intervening verses. Context is Key! All people are defined in its context.

When Paul wrote "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people.." was he asking Timothy to get the equivalent of the local phone book and starting with the alphas and going all the way through to the omegas (the Greek alphabet) make supplication, pray, intercede and make thanksgiving for each individual in the city... or more than that, the whole world?

I don't think so. Why do I say this? Because Paul qualifies verse 1 with verse 2 when he speaks of "kings" (kings are types of people) and "those in high positions" (again "those in high positions" or "in authority" are types or kinds of people).

By the way, you appealed to Arminian scholars, even they believe in a limited atonement. Only those who "choose" to believe....

God bless,
Cush
 
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Albion

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Albion: "All of this...includes an assumption that hasn't been proven--that heaven cannot 'tolerate the presence of wicked souls.'...If Hell is a way of cleansing or rehabilitating, are former inhabitants still wicked?"

You have missed my point that ministry to the damned in Hell can potentially make them beneficiaries of God's grace and of spiritual transformation.
Then, in that case, I have to ask where this idea came from. Just a personal thing?

they would no longer be wicked and the question of Heaven's tolerance of such would be meaningless.
That would be true--IF this very unusual concept that you've laid out were itself true.

So Albion, lay out YOUR case for Hell as a postmortem reform school in which the wicked are cleansed and rehabilitated.
I don't believe that. I was merely responding to that idea when it was presented on this thread in post 38.
 
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ClementofA

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When Paul wrote "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people.." was he asking Timothy to get the equivalent of the local phone book and starting with the alphas and going all the way through to the omegas (the Greek alphabet) make supplication, pray, intercede and make thanksgiving for each individual in the city... or more than that, the whole world?

Don't be silly. This is not rocket science. Here's an example prayer for all men:

"Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."
 
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Cush

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Don't be silly. This is not rocket science. Here's an example prayer for all men:

"Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."
Wouldn't be the first time I have witnessed a non denominational member regress back to Catholicism.
 
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Albion

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Don't be silly. This is not rocket science. Here's an example prayer for all men:

"Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."
What makes you think that's a prayer for "all men?"
 
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Cush

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Is that so? And what shall we say when you're carrying on about a post I made in answer to ClementofA, not to you?

You're right, Albion, I thought your post was from Clement. I didn't notice the poster. My apologies.

God bless,
Cush
 
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ClementofA

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By the way, you appealed to Arminian scholars, even they believe in a limited atonement. Only those who "choose" to believe....

More sillyness. And not even true:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation.

Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
 
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Cush

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More sillyness. And not even true:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation.

Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/

Do you actually have any thoughts of your own on Scripture or the above exegesis I provided? Bro, do you comprehend? I refuse to get into a game of "my favorite commentator" ping pong.
 
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