Pre-Mil Only Can those who were non-believers at the start of Tribulation survive the 7 years then get saved and enter the 1000 years w/o dying as martyrs?

[dwb001]

Mat 25:31-46

That is just the sorting of those who already are His and those who are not.
Not a great revival or conversion event.

How do you interpret those passages to be?

 

[d taylor]

How does this have anything to do with the Rapture? or the Millennium?
Lake of fire for all the unbelievers over all time.
Lake of fire does not make a second appearance until the Great White Throne judgement which is the last thing done on Earth.... AFTER the millennium.

Where is your proof to back up your opinion?
Show me the Biblical reference that people will "fall" during the millennium.
The unbelievers... sure.
But the believers will "fall" like a third Adam... I don't see that in Scripture.
Please point out the verses I may have missed that back your claims.

You are all over the place with you thoughts, until you can better ask questions, I will spend time at other post.

I am not even sure if you understand how a person becomes a born again child of God. Looks like if you did, you would not be asking what you are asking.

 

[dwb001]

You are all over the place with you thoughts, until you can better ask questions, I will spend time at other post.

I am not even sure if you understand how a person becomes a born again child of God. Looks like if you did, you would not be asking what you are asking.

I have asked you very specific questions.
If you can't answer them then fine.
Maybe my thought pattern would become clear if you answered some of my questions.
But you don't want to... so you will not get to the point I was driving at.

 

[d taylor]

I have asked you very specific questions.
If you can't answer them then fine.
Maybe my thought pattern would become clear if you answered some of my questions.
But you don't want to... so you will not get to the point I was driving at.

Here is an example of some of your Incoherent questioning

Show me the Biblical reference that people will "fall" during the millennium.
The unbelievers... sure.
But the believers will "fall" like a third Adam... I don't see that in Scripture.

 

[dwb001]

Here is an example of some of your Incoherent questioning

Show me the Biblical reference that people will "fall" during the millennium.
The unbelievers... sure.
But the believers will "fall" like a third Adam... I don't see that in Scripture.

Where is the question, please?

 

[d taylor]

Where is the question, please?

Do you not understand that you were asking question in the form of statements.

 

[dwb001]

Do you not understand that you were asking question in the form of statements.

The only thing I asked for was your references to back your idea.
I don't understand why that should be an issue.

 

[d taylor]

The only thing I asked for was your references to back your idea.
I don't understand why that should be an issue.

Ok lets play your little game. You said show me where "people will "fall" during the millennium" and "But the believers will "fall" like a third Adam."

Ok, so you show me where i said, believers will fall like Adam (third Adam what ever that is). or where I said people will fall.

 

[dwb001]

Ok lets play your little game. You said show me where "people will "fall" during the millennium" and "But the believers will "fall" like a third Adam."

Ok, so you show me where i said, believers will fall like Adam (third Adam what ever that is). or where I said people will fall.

Correct you did not say that.
You said the millennium will become full of sinners... a rough paraphrase.
Correct?
If only the holy people start the millennium but there will be sinners by the end of the millennium then they must "fall from grace" like Adam did. (Jesus was described as the second Adam)(So that makes this "fall of man" during the millennium a Adamic like fall being the third Adam)

So I was expounding on your idea and feeding it back to you to comment upon. I was not aware that you did not follow your logic to it's logical conclusion. I take a thought through all the steps before putting any trust in it.

 

[d taylor]

Correct you did not say that.
You said the millennium will become full of sinners... a rough paraphrase.
Correct?
If only the holy people start the millennium but there will be sinners by the end of the millennium then they must "fall from grace" like Adam did. (Jesus was described as the second Adam)(So that makes this "fall of man" during the millennium a Adamic like fall being the third Adam)

So I was expounding on your idea and feeding it back to you to comment upon. I was not aware that you did not follow your logic to it's logical conclusion. I take a thought through all the steps before putting any trust in it.

What do you think believers are, a believer is still a sinner.

I will restate what i said.

At the start of the millennium, the millennium will be populated with believers gentile believers and Jewish believers. As time in the millennium moves on the children of some of the gentile believers will not be believers, they will grow up to be unbelievers and as people give birth in the millennium some will grow up to be believers and some will grow up to never believer in Jesus for Eternal Life.

 

[dwb001]

What do you think believers are, a believer is still a sinner.

I will restate what i said.

At the start of the millennium, the millennium will be populated with believers gentile believers and Jewish believers. As time in the millennium moves on the children of some of the gentile believers will not be believers, they will grow up to be unbelievers and as people give birth in the millennium some will grow up to be believers and some will grow up to never believer in Jesus for Eternal Life.

So you say that at the start of the millennium there will be a time like the garden of Eden.
Except that there will be more people some in a resurrected state.
Where is your reference that during the millennial kingdom there will be children being born?
I see no basis for your belief in scripture.
If I missed it please provide references.

 

[Zao is life]

I thought I had tribulation figured out until I finished the book on Dispensationalism required for my seminary class in bibliology and theological method. But according to our textbook, some will enter the millennium that get saved during the tribulation, refuse the mark of the beast, survive and yet do not have to be martyred. This was news to me as I thought the only way a person could be saved during tribulation was to die a martyr's death, so I want to discuss where both ideas come from and who is right. Is there hope for some people that (1) are not Christians and miss the rapture of the church at the start of the tribulation, (2) see the BIble was right all along and they messed up by not believing in time but they come to saving faith because the Holy Spirit, while withdrawn from some respects, is still here for salvation purposes for those who find their faith and persevere to the end, (3) do not accept the mark of the beast, and (4) do not die during the 7 years, so they enter the 1000 year reign as unglorified (still alive) humans that eventually die as normal humans die during the 1000 years. Again this is all new to me because I thought I had it clear that only those who died a martyr's death could be saved during tribulation, but this book from DTS on Dispensationalism says there are some who somehow get through all of tribulation and meet all the requirements to be judged and allowed to enter the Kingdom a normal humans, while those of us who were believers when Tribulation began are back in.

Before you answer, please note the tag for this thread is PRE-MILLENIALS ONLY. It would be pointless for anyone else to give their opinion on the topic.

Personally I think you should read whatever books you have to read for your grades with a pinch of salt, then discard all the teaching of men who thought they had it all worked out, and ask God to bring you to His understanding.

Think about the meaning of the words:

"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His authority. And no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." in Revelation 15:8 and ask God to bring you to His understanding of what that means - because by then all who did not have the seal of God, whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life - had worshiped the beast.

Also consider whether describing the seven last plagues/bowls of wrath with the words "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation" is not a (complete and utter) misnomer - because in the New Testament, every reference to tribulation except two is talking about the tribulation the saints endure in the world (at the hands of unbelievers), and megas thlipsis (great tribulation) is only mentioned three times - the last two unambiguously in reference to a (great) tribulation experienced by the saints,

with the last of the three references to megas thlipsis (great tribulation) talking about the saints who came out from great tribulation, and the first one talking about great tribulation after Jesus had introduced His subject of the end of the Age and His return by speaking about the tribulation His saints will experience.

Of course, whether or not any individual will believe anything at all about what they have learned in seminary when the opinions of others are being taught regarding what scripture means when it talks about great tribulation or "the tribulation", or just discard the ideas of others and start prayerfully searching the New Testament scriptures themselves for every reference to tribulation and compare it with every reference to wrath, is a choice.

I believe the thousand years is literal and follows the return of Christ, so I was able to reply in this thread - but if this thread is for pre-tribbers only, then I'll stop.​

 

[d taylor]

So you say that at the start of the millennium there will be a time like the garden of Eden.
Except that there will be more people some in a resurrected state.
Where is your reference that during the millennial kingdom there will be children being born?
I see no basis for your belief in scripture.
If I missed it please provide references.

No i am not saying that, read what i wrote. The garden of Eden is over there will never be another garden of Eden.
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

 

[dwb001]

No i am not saying that, read what i wrote. The garden of Eden is over there will never be another garden of Eden.
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

Like the garden of Eden. Yep. Got it. Just like the garden.

 

[Jamdoc]

I thought I had tribulation figured out until I finished the book on Dispensationalism required for my seminary class in bibliology and theological method. But according to our textbook, some will enter the millennium that get saved during the tribulation, refuse the mark of the beast, survive and yet do not have to be martyred. This was news to me as I thought the only way a person could be saved during tribulation was to die a martyr's death, so I want to discuss where both ideas come from and who is right. Is there hope for some people that (1) are not Christians and miss the rapture of the church at the start of the tribulation, (2) see the BIble was right all along and they messed up by not believing in time but they come to saving faith because the Holy Spirit, while withdrawn from some respects, is still here for salvation purposes for those who find their faith and persevere to the end, (3) do not accept the mark of the beast, and (4) do not die during the 7 years, so they enter the 1000 year reign as unglorified (still alive) humans that eventually die as normal humans die during the 1000 years. Again this is all new to me because I thought I had it clear that only those who died a martyr's death could be saved during tribulation, but this book from DTS on Dispensationalism says there are some who somehow get through all of tribulation and meet all the requirements to be judged and allowed to enter the Kingdom a normal humans, while those of us who were believers when Tribulation began are back in.

Before you answer, please note the tag for this thread is PRE-MILLENIALS ONLY. It would be pointless for anyone else to give their opinion on the topic.

It's majority belief for premill that some people will survive the entire 70th week and enter the millennial kingdom. As for "tribulation saints" surviving I haven't heard a lot of pretrib go into whether they're all martyred or some survive into the millennial kingdom. But it is possibly a requirement to fit Isaiah 65 as millennial kingdom and in particular Isaiah 65:23 which has "the seed of the blessed of the Lord" having children.

Since the doctrine is there's no marriage after resurrection, then you'd have to have some people who are saved survive to be able to have children in the millennial kingdom, as unbelieving survivors would not be referred to as "the seed of the blessed of the Lord"

This is not at all what I believe myself though.
Isaiah 65 says it's about the new earth, rather than the millennial kingdom for starters.

secondly considering the warning of the parable of the 10 virgins Jesus gave, I don't believe in post rapture salvation, not of gentiles anway. The bridegroom didn't say "come back later", the 5 foolish virgins who didn't go into the wedding party were just outright rejected.
But that is a pre-wrath or post trib perspective rather than pretrib, and to be fair, it's also not the widely held belief in either camp. Most pre-wrath still have people getting saved after the rapture... I just don't see biblical support for it. I see people during the wrath of God cursing and blaspheming God, not repenting.

Finally for me the last nail in the coffin is Amos 8

8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

The great earthquake, the darkening of the sky in the clear day (though only the sun is specified in this passage rather than both sun and moon), and all the tribes mourning. Compare with Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 6:12-17, and other day of the Lord passages.
continuing

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

So after the day of the Lord, there's a famine of the Word of God, specifically hearing it. Why? Because those who preach it are gone (rapture?)

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

instead, because they can't find the word of the true God, they double down on idolatry.
the sin of Samaria is idolatry, Dan was the first tribe to fall into apostasy (and they're excluded from the 144000 in Revelation 7, they have been totally cut off)
during the wrath of God as I said, people curse and blaspheme God for the plagues, and won't stop worshiping devils in Revelation 9 and 16.

So I just don't see salvation after the rapture. I see saints being persecuted, the second coming/rapture, and then the wrath of God, then the millennial kingdom

 

[Jamdoc]

I notice you asked for Premill only, and did not exclude Postribbers like myself. It is pointless for us, as well, since we do not believe the book of Revelation was written for any other reason than to encourage Christians to stand up to Antichristianity.

there are Historic Premillennialist Posttrib as well. Post trib can be amillennial or premillennial.
Premillennial just means that Jesus comes before a 1000 year reign on Earth, post trib means He comes after the 70th week.
so you have 70th week, Jesus returns at the end, and then there's a 1000 year reign on Earth, a final rebellion, and then the GWT and Eternal state.
But because they still believe in a millennium, a post trib premillennialist would be able to contribute on a question of people who populate the millennium.

It's Amillennialists and Postmillennialists who wouldn't fit in, because in neither of their cases is there a millennial reign on Earth after Jesus returns so the question the OP asks doesn't even fit into their eschatology at all.

Pemillennial Pretrib, Pre-wrath, and Post trib will have different takes on the question but will all have answers that actually pertain to the question.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree that the Rapture is not in the Olivet discourse. It is as the guy in the video describes. I watched it and found it truthful and useful too.

both Jesus and Paul draw from Zechariah 9:14-16, Paul draws from it in 1 Thessalonians 4, and Jesus drew from it for the Olivet discourse, they are discussing the same thing. The Lord God in the clouds above people, blowing the trumpet, and gathering people, specifically gathering them above the ground. Zechariah has them set up as an ensign (a banner) above the land

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The Word of the Lord in this case, is referring to Jesus, so literal words that the Lord spoke, and back to Zechariah, confirming what Jesus is talking about in old testament scripture. That is how Paul operates. He is not pulling doctrine from direct revelation. He took things that Jesus said, compared them with the Old Testament, and found the doctrines that Jesus referred to in the Old Testament, then he expounded on them to the church. That is why Jesus chose Paul. Because Paul knew his scripture.
The Bereans were noble, everything Paul taught, they found in the Old Testament.
If Paul had been teaching new doctrines that could NOT be found in scripture? They'd have stoned him to death for being a false prophet.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Just remember that Revelation is not a book to be interpreted.
Just follow the included (included in Revelation) instructions on how to read Revelation.
If we follow John's instructions on how to read Revelation it becomes a very straight forward book.

Why would a non-believer come to Christ if they have rejected Him through the worst plagues to ever hit the planet?
Did Pharaoh join Moses on the trip into the wilderness after the Jews had already set out?
Did average Egyptians also go after the Jews to join them in worshiping the Lord?
Or did Egypt rise to destroy those that they saw as responsible for their plagues?

I am pre-mill as to when Jesus returns. And I place the Rapture event at the post-mill side of history.
Does ANYONE out there share my views? I guess not.

All of the Bible requires interpretation.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

If there are no non-believers in the millennium who does Satan get to make war?
Rev 20:8-9
So there are non-believers going into the millennium.

First, going into the Millennium isn't the same as entering into the Kingdom of God during the Millenium. Second, even if only believers enter the Kingdom, those who are mortal can have children for 1000 years so their children and not them could be the ones that side with Satan.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

-​

I do not see what is so hard about people, believing in Jesus (for Eternal Life) during the tribulation. Then also surviving the tribulation and going into the tribulation physically alive. To repopulate the restored earth for the 1000 year millennium

God has planed for physically alive people to live in the 1000 year kingdom of God. Where would these people come from if not from surviving the tribulation, to enter alive into The (1000 year) Kingdom of God.

That is what is meant when Jesus states those who will be saved are the ones who persevere to the end. They are saved physically, to go into the 1000 year millennium.
He Who Endures Will Be Saved (Matthew 24:13) – Grace Evangelical Society


That is also what the judgment of the sheep and goats is about.
Matthew 25:31-46: Salvation by Works? – Grace Evangelical Society

I like the Grace Evangelical Society's attempt to explain the goats vs sheep, but it isn't still clear to me who is who. It is clear that the sheep are as they say, people who help the Jews (and possibly the Christians who come to faith during the Tribulation period but are tormented and most if not all killed by the antichrist and his arm), and goats are those who aren't, but it isn't clear to me (yet) who is being described as the goats and the sheep. I see 4 possible groups that could be in this judgement: (1) Jewish Christians who came to accept Christ during the tribulation and survived; (2) Non-Jewish Christians who came to accept Christ during the tribulation; (3) Jews who continued to reject Christ and (4) non-Jews who continued to reject Christ. I also agree that this judgement doesn't necessarily equate to the Great White throne judgement either, where a simpler division is made between those who have accepted Christ as Savior and those who rejected Christ as Savior.

We do know that in the Millenium those of us who were Christians at the first coming will return as Priests and be in our final immortal bodies during those 1000 years, and yet there will be mortal humans who survived the tribulation and continued to have children and die for generations, some of which will accept Christ (which should be a higher percentage than today because (1) Jesus and His Priests (us Christians raptured) will be hard to deny exist when we are seen every day and doing miracles constantly and (2) Satan's influence will be removed so that the ones that reject Christ won't do so because of Satan's lies, but because humanity is still inherently depraved as it has been since Adam and Eve chose poorly in the Garden and brought sin and death onto the world. But amazingly enough to create a large Army will be around at the end of those 1000 years for Satan to challenge Jesus and His army once again, though challenge isn't a good word because Satan has no chance whatsoever at winning. But Satan has been deceived by his own evil thinking ever since he decided to rebel in heaven in ages past so he apparently still suffers the delusion that he can overthrown Jesus and all us Saints, Apostles, Prophets, Believers, Angels, etc.

I am still confused as to who exactly will be these people Jesus is judging, and what that judgement means? Can they get into the Kingdom because they treated the Jews or Tribulation Martyrs decently and yet still reject Christ and wind up in hell? Do those who get rejected have any hope whatsoever or are they 100% doomed to hell at that point? I know the answer may lie in the article, but it doesn't stand out to me, so any help clarifying it from this Church in Texas who wrote the great response on which I mostly agree but don't fully yet understand, so I'd appreciate any clarification along the lines that this article is true. I am 100% sure that they are correct that this judgement does NOT NOT NOT equate to a works based salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, period. Works or fruit should result in our obedience and gratitude for Jesus having saved us, so we ought to be producing tons of works and fruit, but that ultimately has zero effect on whether we spend eternity in heaven or on earth with Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit or in Heaven, or both.