Can the Devil Deceive the Last Days Saints?

[BrotherRickG]

I have had the opportunity to talk to many Christians and get their points of view. From Preterists to Amillennialist, to Pre-Trib, to Mid-Trib but not any Post-Tribs as far as I can remember. All have the same basic Bible and many different expectations of what the "End Times" will consist of.

Do you think that our church family can be deceived?

What would you think the purpose would be for if we are?

What are Your expectations for the End Times?

 

[Yoseft]

Here we go.....

My take.

No one, but the Father knows.

I look at it as a parallel to a College and Pro Football Coach.

Would One give His Opponent the play book?

No just some references and final outcomes, but no timelines and details.

 

[BrotherRickG]

Here we go.....

My take.

No one, but the Father knows.

I look at it as a parallel to a College and Pro Football Coach.

Would One give His Opponent the play book?

No just some references and final outcomes, but no timelines and details.

Ok, we really do not know the complete playbook that is for sure. We are only given a few "Hand Signals", (using your analogy) of what to do in those days.

 

[Bible2]

BrotherRickG said in post 1:

Do you think that our church family can be deceived?

Yes.

In Matthew 24:24 the original Greek doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible, but simply says "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20) as part of Satan's intention of deceiving as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says it's impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it's possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

--

The fact that a saved person can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a saved person, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10) applies even to a saved person. That is, one way that a saved person could be deceived into committing apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth and make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

--

So saved people, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be living righteously now, they need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

BrotherRickG said in post 1:

Do you think that our church family can be deceived?

Yes.

It's important for Christians to realize that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is so important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could lie and say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

 

[Bible2]

BrotherRickG said in post 1:

What are Your expectations for the End Times?

If you mean the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on mankind. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the Prime Minister of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Yoseft]

Ok, we really do not know the complete playbook that is for sure. We are only given a few "Hand Signals", (using your analogy) of what to do in those days.

I hope I did not sound flippant.

There is so much out there (I just read / scanned some of your blog)
on this.

The one portion of Thessalonians has always made me ponder.

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4

He who opposes and exalts himself against everything that is called G_d and religion, just as he will sit in the Temple of G_d, as G_d, and will show concerning himself as if he is G_d.

To those that understand, and Paul most certainly did.

There is one Temple, and it is in Jerusalem.

It is gone. So an incredible man will arise and do that which
no man can do at this time.

Bring a false peace to Islam towards Israel.

To me, a Temple must be built and all the world Islam / Israel
must agree.

No small task. It will take a supernatural person to do that.

The majority of the world will be deceived and worship and lift this
man up that can accomplish this.

 

[iamlamad]

Much of the church is deceived in many areas TODAY! Consider how many denominations we have today. The reason is deception to one degree or another.

However, you have asked what could be a trick question: if you are speaking of the days when the man of sin turned Beast will be deceiving with lying signs and wonders, much of the church will not be on earth. Only those left behind at Paul's pretrib rapture will remain on earth. Just the fact that many will be left behind shows they were deceived at the time of the rapture. Can they then become MORE deceived? Why not?

LAMAD

 

[BrotherRickG]

There is a lot there BIBLE2 and I do agree with some of your plausible theories. You spent s lot of time on that study I can see. A couple points I have trouble with are is the Christians going through the Bowls of Wrath (if I read it correctly). Wouldn't that be likened to Noah or the animals swimming in the flood?

 

[BrotherRickG]

I hope I did not sound flippant.

There is so much out there (I just read / scanned some of your blog)
on this.

The one portion of Thessalonians has always made me ponder.

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4

He who opposes and exalts himself against everything that is called G_d and religion, just as he will sit in the Temple of G_d, as G_d, and will show concerning himself as if he is G_d.

To those that understand, and Paul most certainly did.

There is one Temple, and it is in Jerusalem.

It is gone. So an incredible man will arise and do that which
no man can do at this time.

Bring a false peace to Islam towards Israel.

To me, a Temple must be built and all the world Islam / Israel
must agree.

No small task. It will take a supernatural person to do that.

The majority of the world will be deceived and worship and lift this
man up that can accomplish this.

You were not flippant by any means. I think most true Christians believe in what they have compiles about this subject and are on guard to keep from being pushed off their belief in fear of being mislead. I am also one of those, but this question is to open that door in a safe way so that the deception may be found out.

As for the Temple, that is a mystery still. The latest news out of Israel that I heard on this subject is that they were getting ready to move forward with it. We know that everything is ready and waiting the only thing left is the clearing of the land. I remember a long time ago on the show Day of Discovery and they were talking about the original Temple mount was actually kitty corner of the dome of the rock. I don't know but I have Faith it will happen and I believe that man of deception is alive and waiting. As it is today we are hearing another rumor of war...

 

[BrotherRickG]

Much of the church is deceived in many areas TODAY! Consider how many denominations we have today. The reason is deception to one degree or another.

However, you have asked what could be a trick question: if you are speaking of the days when the man of sin turned Beast will be deceiving with lying signs and wonders, much of the church will not be on earth. Only those left behind at Paul's pretrib rapture will remain on earth. Just the fact that many will be left behind shows they were deceived at the time of the rapture. Can they then become MORE deceived? Why not?

LAMAD

I do not look down on most denominations. I think God actually wanted them. If you study the denominations they are almost the same as personalities of the people themselves. I do think when the pressure kicks up that denominations will fall to the waste side and there will only be two sides; for or against Jesus.

On Deception you may be correct or the Pre-Trib is the deception and when or if doesn't happen it will cause a lot of self professed Christians to fall.

Matt 24:4-39 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

 

[iamlamad]

I do not look down on most denominations. I think God actually wanted them. If you study the denominations they are almost the same as personalities of the people themselves. I do think when the pressure kicks up that denominations will fall to the waste side and there will only be two sides; for or against Jesus.

On Deception you may be correct or the Pre-Trib is the deception and when or if doesn't happen it will cause a lot of self professed Christians to fall.

Matt 24:4-39 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

You are saying that God WANTED false doctrines! Sorry, I cannot go there. In the book of Acts, there was ONE CHURCH in Jerusalem, and ONE church in the other cities, and for a while, most believed one thing. However, we see in Paul's writings that there were ALREADY people with false doctrines!

Please allow me one example? If I asked you, "why don't you pray in tongues as Paul did," my guess is, your answer would be a "Picasso" of deception, masterfully painted by demons. (I am guessing you don't pray in tongues.)

This is just ONE area where denominations are divided. I could add many other areas. Some believe that they get "all" when they are born again. John Wesley preached a "second, definite work of grace" subsequent to the born again experience, which scripture proves. He was right in that part, but he was wrong about WHAT that second work of grace was! Churches today that follow Wesley have follow his error for well over a hundred years!

Notice the DIRECTION of the deception: ""Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,"

Did you catch the word "for?" The deception in this sentence is for false Christs. When the Beast and false prophet begin with their false miracles It will be the same type of deception. He will be the ultimate false Christ, pointing people to a false religion, and to their doom.
"pretrib" is not deception, it is clear in scriptures, when they are understand. I understand there is not ONE single verse that tells us. However, Paul is clear that HIS rapture will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord; yet not really the day, but the SIGNS for the Day. John tells us when the Day of the Lord starts.

Many have chosen Rev. 4:1 in Revelation for the rapture, but they are pitifully wrong, and use terrible exegesis. Imagine, if we KNEW where the "trib" was in Revelation, and then where the rapture was, could we then KNOW whether the rapture was pre, mid or post trib?

LAMAD

 

[ancientsoul]

Matthew 24:22 ... the destruction of the temple and the signs before the end ... And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

companion verses

Isaiah 65:8,9 ... the rebellious will be punished ... Thus saith the Lord. As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servant's sakes, that I may not destroy them alll. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Zechariah 14:2 ... Jerusalem and the nations ... For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

elect ... chosen of God
residue ... remnant

Joel 3:2 ... judgement on the nations ... I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

*******

Matthew 24:24 ... For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it ere possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

companion verses

Deuteronomy 13:1 ... idolators to be put to death ... If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer od dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ... instructions concerning the day of the Lord ... Even him, whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

Revelation 13:13 ... the second beast ... And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

John 6:37 ... I am the Bread of Life ... All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Romans 8:28 ... more than conquerers ... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose.

2 Timothy 2:19 ... Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Nahum 1:7 ... God's majesty in mercy and judgement ... The Lord is good, and a stronghold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust him.

*******

Mark 13:20 ... signs of the end ... And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

companion verses

Mark 13:22 ... For false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elct.

companion verses

*******

Luke 21:18 ... signs of the end ... But there shall not a hair of your head perish.

*******

the elect ...

Isaiah 1:9 Judah, a sinful nation ... Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom and, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 6:13 ... Isaiah's vision and commission ... But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

when it is returned and hath been burned again ...

life ...

Ezra 9:2 ... Ezra's prayer of confession ... For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themelves with the people of those olands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trepass.

people committed to God for special service

Exodus 22:31 ... laws of human relations ... And ye shall be a holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.

Deuteronomy 7:6 ... a holy people unto the Lord ... For thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himslef, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

for this use only ...
for himself only ...
chosen out of ...

Exodus 19:5 ... Israel at Mount Sinai ... Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

1 Peter 2:9 ... God's own people ... But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Romans 11:5-7 ... the remanat of Israel ... Even so then at this present time also there is a remenat according to the elction of grace, And if by grace, then is it no more works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What the? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

*******

I don't believe for a minute that one of God's elect chosen for this will fall ... God is not a God who would choose someone for a job knowing full well they couldn't or wouldn't hold up ... there is so much more to add to these verses, but will leave it here for now ... God chose them for this purpose and will make sure His purpose is served ... He is our stronghold ... not our foe ...

Romans 11:4 ... But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 

[Douggg]

Can the Devil Deceive the Last Days Saints?


Matthew24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Within the context of what Jesus said - the answer is "no".

Can Christians fall for false teachers and such like Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, Rodney Howard Browne, etc - the answer is yes. example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqrIJVvkYo

 

[BrotherRickG]

You are saying that God WANTED false doctrines! Sorry, I cannot go there. In the book of Acts, there was ONE CHURCH in Jerusalem, and ONE church in the other cities, and for a while, most believed one thing. However, we see in Paul's writings that there were ALREADY people with false doctrines!

Please allow me one example? If I asked you, "why don't you pray in tongues as Paul did," my guess is, your answer would be a "Picasso" of deception, masterfully painted by demons. (I am guessing you don't pray in tongues.)

This is just ONE area where denominations are divided. I could add many other areas. Some believe that they get "all" when they are born again. John Wesley preached a "second, definite work of grace" subsequent to the born again experience, which scripture proves. He was right in that part, but he was wrong about WHAT that second work of grace was! Churches today that follow Wesley have follow his error for well over a hundred years!

Notice the DIRECTION of the deception: ""Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,"

Did you catch the word "for?" The deception in this sentence is for false Christs. When the Beast and false prophet begin with their false miracles It will be the same type of deception. He will be the ultimate false Christ, pointing people to a false religion, and to their doom.
"pretrib" is not deception, it is clear in scriptures, when they are understand. I understand there is not ONE single verse that tells us. However, Paul is clear that HIS rapture will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord; yet not really the day, but the SIGNS for the Day. John tells us when the Day of the Lord starts.

Many have chosen Rev. 4:1 in Revelation for the rapture, but they are pitifully wrong, and use terrible exegesis. Imagine, if we KNEW where the "trib" was in Revelation, and then where the rapture was, could we then KNOW whether the rapture was pre, mid or post trib?

LAMAD

Do you hear yourself in this rant? So, in your mind what denominations are wrong?

You must be the only one that is able to be saved in the Rapture?; the world looks up and sees only "iamlamad" going to be with Jesus. Doesn't sound like it will send chills down the back of anyone in the world to me.

Do you find yourself being legalistic like the Pharisees? Shure sounds like it to me, you might want to learn how to fish and be like a little child to understand who Jesus is. Mark 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Luke 18:17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Matt 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

As followers in the Creator we must understand that He is in charge and we are not and allow Him to be the Judge, not you or anyone else. You will be amazed at the ones who entered the though the Kingdom Gates and the ones who didn't. Just remember that.

Take a breath and regroup. The fight is not between brothers but against the common enemy...

 

[BrotherRickG]

Can the Devil Deceive the Last Days Saints?


Matthew24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Within the context of what Jesus said - the answer is "no".

Can Christians fall for false teachers and such like Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, Rodney Howard Browne, etc - the answer is yes. example:

I guess the question is who turns away fro the faith; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other," . I believe the Elect have been chosen, but is that all that claim to be Christian? I do not think so. We cannot confuse the Elect with professed Christians... Some are with Jesus and some are not. I think that is scriptural.

 

[Bible2]

BrotherRickG said in post 8:

A couple points I have trouble with are is the Christians going through the Bowls of Wrath (if I read it correctly). Wouldn't that be likened to Noah or the animals swimming in the flood?

No. For when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 11:

"pretrib" is not deception, it is clear in scriptures, when they are understand.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2]

ancientsoul said in post 12:

Matthew 24:24 ... For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it ere possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

companion verses

Deuteronomy 13:1 ... idolators to be put to death ... If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer od dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ... instructions concerning the day of the Lord ... Even him, whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

Revelation 13:13 ... the second beast ... And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Good connections.

And just as the Antichrist could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36, so his False Prophet could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of Revelation 13:13, when he will miraculously call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone. He could do this as a Luciferian inversion of 1 Kings 18:19-40. For example, he could first gather together all the most prominent leaders of the Christian community worldwide to the Champ de Mars (Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon), which is the large open space in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And he could then tell them during a ceremony televised and webcasted live worldwide to pray to YHWH God to send fire down and destroy the Tower.

And when the Christian leaders pray and YHWH doesn't do anything (by his own choice), the False Prophet could then pray to Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:4) to send fire down and destroy the Tower. And Lucifer could do so (allowed to do so by YHWH), so that 1 Kings 18:38-40 will be turned on its head, so that news reporters could write (in their words) "Then the fire of Lucifer fell, and consumed the Eiffel Tower. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces. And they said, Lucifer is God, Lucifer is God. And the True Prophet said to them: 'Take these men of YHWH! Let not one of them escape!' And they took them. And the True Prophet brought them down to the river Seine, and slew them there" (as a Luciferian inversion of 1 Kings 18:38-40).

But would YHWH really let something like this happen? Would he let Christians pray to him to send fire down from heaven but refuse to do so, while allowing Lucifer to send fire down at the beck of the False Prophet? Yes, YHWH could let this happen, as a test to Christians, to see if they love signs and wonders more than YHWH (cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-3). Believers must always remember that not all signs and wonders are from the true God, that Lucifer/Satan can also give people the power to perform them (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), in order to deceive people (Matthew 24:24-25, Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20).

The way not to be deceived is to continue to believe that everything the Bible teaches is from God (John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), no matter how amazing the miracles are of someone who teaches something that contradicts the Bible (Matthew 24:24; 1 Timothy 4:1). And the way to continue to believe that everything the Bible teaches is from God is not to continue in any unrepentant sin, for otherwise our conscience could become seared as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where we could no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, but after our own lusts heap to ourselves teachers who teach us fables which support us in our lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4), to where we could even become willing to depart from the faith itself, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).

ancientsoul said in post 12:

Mark 13:20 ... signs of the end ... And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:20 can mean all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

ancientsoul said in post 12:

Luke 21:18 ... signs of the end ... But there shall not a hair of your head perish.

Luke 21:18 doesn't require physical protection (as is sometimes claimed). For Jesus had just said "some of you shall they cause to be put to death" (Luke 21:16). So Luke 21:18 can include the hairs of martyred Christians (of all times), which won't perish in the sense that even their hairs will be resurrected into immortality when their bodies are resurrected into immortal flesh at Jesus' 2nd coming, just as Jesus' body was resurrected into immortal flesh at his first coming (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, if Luke 10:19 refers to physical protection, then Luke 10:19 could have applied only to the 70 (Luke 10:17). If Luke 10:19 applies to the entire church, then it means the power of Satan can't hurt obedient believers spiritually. For Satan can hurt and even kill obedient believers physically (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Obedient believers overcome Satan spiritually even when they are physically killed by him (Revelation 12:11). They are more than conquerors spiritually even when they are physically led like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36-37). For death is a gain for obedient believers, as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). So obedient believers need have no fear of death (Hebrews 2:15).

And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And they will all be resurrected into immortal physical bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will all then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). And sometime after that, they will all live forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). So no matter what evil forces have done to obedient believers physically in the past, or are doing to them physically now, or in the future, such as during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), all obedient believers of all times will ultimately have the victory (1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 15:2).

 

[BrotherRickG]

No. For when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

He never speaks of a protected chamber. Jesus tell us He will come to us in the clouds through His word. Rev 14:14 he comes in the clouds. Can't get better than that. I find the interpretations of the Bible, especially end times to be like the evolutionists some times. They regurgitate past down teachings and believe them as fact. I do not see what they are trying to convey though.

It is all good though, in the end only Jesus will be correct.

 

[Bible2]

BrotherRickG said in post 19:

He never speaks of a protected chamber.

Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

BrotherRickG said in post 19:

Jesus tell us He will come to us in the clouds through His word. Rev 14:14 he comes in the clouds.

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, when they are killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17) in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7) no matter whether they live or die.

BrotherRickG said in post 19:

I find the interpretations of the Bible, especially end times to be like the evolutionists some times. They regurgitate past down teachings and believe them as fact.

An old earth and evolution can be true without contradicting creationism, because evolution per se (random mutation and survival of the fittest) can coexist with miraculous creation, just as an automated process created by a human (e.g. a computer program which makes random, colorful pictures which can be seen as art) can coexist with that human sometimes performing a task himself directly (painting some pictures by hand). I.e., evolution per se can simply be a process created by God to allow new, adaptive species to arise naturally over time, and this process can coexist with him sometimes creating species miraculously.

Some people ask why would God wait millions of years for something to evolve from a one-celled organism when he could just instantly create it? He could do that for the same reason that he has a human start out as a one-celled organism, a zygote in its mother's womb. He then has it only gradually develop through natural means into an embryo, and then into a fetus, and then into a baby, and then into a toddler, and then into an adolescent, and then into an adult. And he has other animals develop gradually in a similar way. And he has plants start out as seeds. So it must give God pleasure to see living organisms develop naturally over time, just as it must give him pleasure to also sometimes create plants and animals miraculously, instantaneously, already fully-formed, like he did in Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:20-27, during 3 of the 7 literal, 24-hour days of Genesis 1:3 to 2:4.

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Creationism includes what could be called the double-gap theory, meaning that there could have been two different gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the 2nd gap between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5. Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 some 4.5 billion years could have occurred in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years God could have also gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously whenever he wanted to (cf. punctuated equilibria).

Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only about 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space as a "rogue planet" (astronomers estimate that rogue planets in our galaxy could outnumber the stars in our galaxy). Genesis 1:3 to 2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of 6 literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.

Then, only about 6,000 years ago God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; there, the original Hebrew word translated as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land": e.g. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the local, Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9) and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). Then God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). Then God miraculously created in the Garden of Eden an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).

Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago (based on Biblical chronology), yet there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years. Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or coexisting hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.

And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billion years old, and there are something like 100 billion different galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion different stars. So even if only one star out of every 10 billion stars has an inhabited planet, there would still be a trillion inhabited planets. And on most of these, God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years before beginning his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.