Can a women be a pastor?

[BlackLamb]

Mmmmmmm....misogyny. Yummy.

To the OP: of course women can be pastors. You really think God cares what's between our legs when we're out sharing His heart with people?

It seriously boggles my mind that people think that having a penis is some sort of a qualifier for teaching others. LOLWAT?

 

[fwiwwl]

Mmmmmmm....misogyny. Yummy.

To the OP: of course women can be pastors. You really think God cares what's between our legs when we're out sharing His heart with people?

It seriously boggles my mind that people think that having a penis is some sort of a qualifier for teaching others. LOLWAT?

Sounds great! "maybe a little too graphic"Just tear some pages from your Bible and go for it! Do you have a Bible?

 

[Christdiedforme]

You're getting answers. They're just not answers you like.

Wow, you never answered my question about the negatives of women in authority.

Is it because there isn't one?

 

[Dorothea]

because a woman should be able to be what God calls her to be and not restricted by mistranslations of Gods word

Except they're not called by God to be priests because of what many have posted here including me on the positions of women in the church. If they're saying God has led them, it isn't God, IMO, it would be their own controlling will or pride getting in the way.

 

[LJSGM]

Wow, you never answered my question about the negatives of women in authority.

Is it because there isn't one?

negative of men in authority:

testosterone produces feelings of agression, domination, territorial behaviors, hightened sexual desires...it's like putting a gun in the hands of a convict....

Just joking.

 

[Strong in Him]

You're getting answers. They're just not answers you like.

And I've asked a lot more questions to which I've had no answers at all.

Ok, let's have a look at this question of Scripture, and how to interpret it. There are a couple of options:-

1. Do you take everything that's written literally?
If you say "yes", it is the word of God and he meant what he said exactly as he said it; what do you do with passages such as "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Presumably this is just as much the word of God as anything else, and if you are taking it literally, presumably you've done it?
If you say "no" - great. You've recognised that the Bible contains history, allegory, parable, poetry and we have to sort out which is which. And also read it in context and with understanding of the people to whom it was addressed.

2 Do you believe that everything that was written to the cultures then applies to our culture today?
If you say "yes", what do you do with verses that speak about treating your slaves kindly - when slavery was abolishe 200 years ago? (In Britain anyway.) What about the verse in which Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent illnesses? The water we drink today is far more hygenic than it was then, so do we apply that verse, and do we take it literally? Even alcoholics and those who don't drink wine?
If you say "no", then you recognise that the Bible was written to people of different cultures, and whatsmore, some of what was written is pastoral advice to those facing specific situations/problems and not a blanket command from God to be slavishly followed by all people everywhere in all ages.

Now apply these two questions to the verses on women in church.
1 Corinthians 14:33 says -
"as in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches".
Do you believe that this means that Paul is saying that women should always remain silent in church today? If yes; do you practise it? If you believe this, you shouldn't be allowed to pray, sing, rea the Scriptures, give a testimony etc in church. Why? Because the word of God says so and should be obeyed. But you've already said that it's ok for a woman to be a pastor if it's to an all-female congregation - so obviously you can't take this verse literally or apply it today. Which immediately raises the question; why have you decided to disregard this verse, while insisting that other Scrioptures be rigidly obeyed and applied to or situation today?
Also, if you take this verse literally, what do you do with the fact that Paul allowed women to pray and prophesy?

What could it mean?
Well if you read further in the passage, you'll see the words " they must be in submission as the law says" what law - we're not under law. And also the words "if a woman wants to enquire about anything she should ask her husband at home". So women were speaking in church because they, or some of them, were asking their husbands in the service about anything they didn't understand. So immediately that paints a different picture from saying that Paul forbade all women from speaking in church.

(to be continued)

 

[Christdiedforme]

negative of men in authority:

testosterone produces feelings of agression, domination, territorial behaviors, hightened sexual desires...it's like putting a gun in the hands of a convict....

Just joking.

Well, technically everything that you described about testosterone is true and I am sure it has some bearing on some men.

 

[Christdiedforme]

And I've asked a lot more questions to which I've had no answers at all.

Ok, let's have a look at this question of Scripture, and how to interpret it. There are a couple of options:-

1. Do you take everything that's written literally?
If you say "yes", it is the word of God and he meant what he said exactly as he said it; what do you do with passages such as "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Presumably this is just as much the word of God as anything else, and if you are taking it literally, presumably you've done it?
If you say "no" - great. You've recognised that the Bible contains history, allegory, parable, poetry and we have to sort out which is which. And also read it in context and with understanding of the people to whom it was addressed.

2 Do you believe that everything that was written to the cultures then applies to our culture today?
If you say "yes", what do you do with verses that speak about treating your slaves kindly - when slavery was abolishe 200 years ago? (In Britain anyway.) What about the verse in which Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent illnesses? The water we drink today is far more hygenic than it was then, so do we apply that verse, and do we take it literally? Even alcoholics and those who don't drink wine?
If you say "no", then you recognise that the Bible was written to people of different cultures, and whatsmore, some of what was written is pastoral advice to those facing specific situations/problems and not a blanket command from God to be slavishly followed by all people everywhere in all ages.

Now apply these two questions to the verses on women in church.
1 Corinthians 14:33 says -
"as in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches".
Do you believe that this means that Paul is saying that women should always remain silent in church today? If yes; do you practise it? If you believe this, you shouldn't be allowed to pray, sing, rea the Scriptures, give a testimony etc in church. Why? Because the word of God says so and should be obeyed. But you've already said that it's ok for a woman to be a pastor if it's to an all-female congregation - so obviously you can't take this verse literally or apply it today. Which immediately raises the question; why have you decided to disregard this verse, while insisting that other Scrioptures be rigidly obeyed and applied to or situation today?
Also, if you take this verse literally, what do you do with the fact that Paul allowed women to pray and prophesy?

What could it mean?
Well if you read further in the passage, you'll see the words " they must be in submission as the law says" what law - we're not under law. And also the words "if a woman wants to enquire about anything she should ask her husband at home". So women were speaking in church because they, or some of them, were asking their husbands in the service about anything they didn't understand. So immediately that paints a different picture from saying that Paul forbade all women from speaking in church.

(to be continued)

Excellent post! I have also asked questions with no answers but I guess, in a way, no answer is pretty telling.

I admire you and I am glad to see you are doing God's Will!

 

[LJSGM]

Not at all. Some of us are trying to give serious answers about biblical interpretation and ask questions about why you think this Scripture means what you say it means - even though it conflicts with other verses in Scripture.

It's just that we're not getting too many answers - just statements that we have to accept Scripture.

I agree!

 

[BlackLamb]

Sounds great! "maybe a little too graphic"Just tear some pages from your Bible and go for it! Do you have a Bible?

I like the implication that I don't know what the Bible says about the subject. Only, I've done fairly extensive research on the matter and I have a great basis/foundation for believing what I do.

 

[Strong in Him]

(continued) Now apply the two options mentioned earlier to other Scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 says;
"a woman should learn in quietness and full submission" So far so good. This confirms 1 Cor 14:34; a woman should listen and learn in silence, not interupting or speaking.
"I do not permit a woman to speak or have authority over a man; she must be silent."
Take this literally? Paul did not allow a woman to speak (in church). Really? Why did he allow them to prophesy then?
What about having authority over a man? Well how can a woman decide to take authority from a man anyway? Have a look through Scripture - who was it who gave authority to men and women to prophesy, lead nations, preach and to Jesus to heal, preach and drive out demons? God. No one can take from another person that which only God gives. So this verse can't mean that literally. My understanding is that these nattering women were causing disruption in the services and looking to their husbands for the answers instead of listening to, and enquiring iof, the preacher/teacher. So they were undermining his authority.
Verse 15 of this chapter says "but women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety".
Do we take this literally? Am I not saved because I don't have children? And while we're on the whole "curse of Eve" thing; what about women today who have no real pain in childbirth due to drugs, anesthetics or because they have a quick delivey or high pain threshhold? Are they more holy than every other woman because Eve's curse is not affecting them?

You can look at the verses about women in church, take them literally if you like and insist they all apply to our 21st century world just as much as they did in the 1st century - but if you do you'll be left with a load more questions, to which others may well demand answers - and an incomplete understanding of the word of God.

And all this doesn't even touch on the question of why God blesses women's ministries, and doesn't convict them/us of our sin and guide us in his path when we ask him to. Yes he allows sin, in non Christians and those whohave no intention of repenting, nut not in his forgiven, restored, obedient children who confess their sins and want to serve him. He's not heartless; he will show us what we've done wrong if we ask him to.

All of this leads me to the inescapable conclusion - and in the absence of theological answers from anyone else - that God does indeed call women to preach/minister today. A calling which I have heard for myself.

 

[Captivated]

(continued) Now apply the two options mentioned earlier to other Scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 says;
"a woman should learn in quietness and full submission" So far so good. This confirms 1 Cor 14:34; a woman should listen and learn in silence, not interupting or speaking.
"I do not permit a woman to speak or have authority over a man; she must be silent."
Take this literally? Paul did not allow a woman to speak (in church). Really? Why did he allow them to prophesy then?
What about having authority over a man? Well how can a woman decide to take authority from a man anyway? Have a look through Scripture - who was it who gave authority to men and women to prophesy, lead nations, preach and to Jesus to heal, preach and drive out demons? God. No one can take from another person that which only God gives. So this verse can't mean that literally. My understanding is that these nattering women were causing disruption in the services and looking to their husbands for the answers instead of listening to, and enquiring iof, the preacher/teacher. So they were undermining his authority.
Verse 15 of this chapter says "but women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety".
Do we take this literally? Am I not saved because I don't have children? And while we're on the whole "curse of Eve" thing; what about women today who have no real pain in childbirth due to drugs, anesthetics or because they have a quick delivey or high pain threshhold? Are they more holy than every other woman because Eve's curse is not affecting them?

You can look at the verses about women in church, take them literally if you like and insist they all apply to our 21st century world just as much as they did in the 1st century - but if you do you'll be left with a load more questions, to which others may well demand answers - and an incomplete understanding of the word of God.

And all this doesn't even touch on the question of why God blesses women's ministries, and doesn't convict them/us of our sin and guide us in his path when we ask him to. Yes he allows sin, in non Christians and those whohave no intention of repenting, nut not in his forgiven, restored, obedient children who confess their sins and want to serve him. He's not heartless; he will show us what we've done wrong if we ask him to.

All of this leads me to the inescapable conclusion - and in the absence of theological answers from anyone else - that God does indeed call women to preach/minister today. A calling which I have heard for myself.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Eve is satan's first mortal enemy

15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman

The enmity of Satan has been hard on women–consider it. Also consider that if there is enmity between Satan and the woman, she is on God's side.

Ok, that passage was the 1st prophecy to Christ, and to His Mother.
Mankind does not have enmity [seperation from...] satan.
We are in the world and many are of the world. God didnt seperate humans from satan, but let him be the prince of the world...and worldly things. [Which mankind pursues]


On this topic!
The Church does not utilize women as preachers because God gave men and women different roles.
Both in marriage and the Church...and in life.
Women are nurturers. Women have a whole different role within the Church. They are part of His Church, and His adopted.
Eve did sin first, but mankind didnt fully fall until Adam partook in that sin.

Jesus hand choose men for teaching His Church in His place. As male, His choosen were male.

If women would have been choosen, His Mother would have been first choice. But women do not have the 'position' granted on earth for this particular role. So as in all things, women are obedient, as are men.
Men have another role...it is protector [as is so in marriage]. Women teach, but only in another capacity. Men must protect the Church. Their strength and guidance is a gift from God.
WE all have different gifts. And the position to preach the Church was merited for men. Not women.

That doesnt mean women ARE LESS than men. I think this causes both men to be proud and women to stumble ....

Now, lest we women envy what we think we cannot have, as Eve did in the garden...let us let go of this desire to have which was shown by God we cannot have.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lastly, show me one place where a woman was choosen by Christ for this ministry.
I count 11 at His resurrection [all men]
And then for the sake of Apostolic succession, they choose another...

Acts Of Apostles 1
26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

SO that means 12 men were in place to continue Christ's ministry.

Then we see Paul writing to Timothy what sort of men he should teach...the choosen from God.

And we know Paul described the character a Bishop ought to have...
What sort of MAN he should be.

In fact, throughout the entire history of the Church not one, no not one woman was ever ordained a priest.

Where in scriptures does it say a woman was an elder, a Bishop, a presbyter, an Apostle...?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Wow, you never answered my question about the negatives of women in authority.

Is it because there isn't one?

I told you to talk to God about this. I didn't write the passage that says women are not to have authority. There are a lot of sins being committed that don't manifest themselves as being evil. Does that mean they're okay?

Oh goodness, you're not one of those people that believe that something that doesn't harm anyone else isn't a sin, are you? That would certainly explain a lot!!

In the end, it's all the same, people want to pick and choose what parts of the bible to believe and what parts to toss. You guys want to play with God's word like that, be my guest. It's to your detriment, and probably to the detriment of these so-called congregations that some of you feel so "called" to serve.

 

[Strong in Him]

In the end, it's all the same, people want to pick and choose what parts of the bible to believe and what parts to toss. You guys want to play with God's word like that, be my guest.

Isn't it sad when people get so fixated on one argument/mindset that they provide no real answers, or contribution to the discuission, but can only repeat the same mantras?

I could say "you want to question the God of the universe about who he can and can't call? Be my guest.

But, for me, this debate isn't about women priests/ministers as such; it's about reading and interpreting the word of God correctly. When we do this, we begin to understand, not only what the writers were communicating to the people, but what the readers would have understood by their words. We learn a little of Biblical language, customs, way of life; and through it all we see the God who loves, forgives, chooses and calls his people - to service, but also into a deeper relationship with himself. We learn also how people apply this lifechanging faith and Gospel to their everyday lives, the difficult situations they had to face and how God was there with them.

Maybe you actually believe that to read the Scriptures in context, study the language, learn exegesis is in some way to devalue them - that people talk about context just to try to explain away a passage they don't particular like or want to obey. If you do, I have some sympathy with that view as I used to hold it myself. But the fact is that if you don't know how to read God's word correctly, you miss out on all kinds of insights and so on. Studying and reading God's word correctly is a must for all Christians, as well as a vastly enriching experience.

Without wishing to be rude, neither you, nor anyone else here,can do anything about my beliefs and calling; you are names on an internet website. The most you could do would be to track down my minister and Superintendent and write to them saying that I was breaking God's word - but you'd just get back several pages of the arguments that I, and others, have used. They know and recognise my calling to preach, so your arguments would have no effect. So all this is not about my calling, I'm secure in that, but in how various people here read and interpret God's word.

So I really hope that you do ask yourself some of the questions I have asked - and find out more about the amazing word of God. as for me, I'm going to go on preaching. If my call to the ordained ministry is accepted, tested and recognised, I shall spend the rest of my life doing what God has called me to - and telling people about his amazing love, care, salvation and the fact that the God of the Universe can, and wants, to use anyone to proclaim this message - even someone the world would consider weak; a disabled woman. No one is too old, young, weak, poor, stupid to be used by God in his service.

 

[Kitangel]

This is an interesting article.... I'll put it in my subscriptions list and watch it.

I've been having trouble with women in the church (and indeed, women in God's eyes). I so want to believe that we have as much a purpose in God's eyes as men, but so far, I have found no answers to believe that. Hopefully, this thread should show some answers.

So, thanks.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I could say "you want to question the God of the universe about who he can and can't call? Be my guest.

I told you before, that when a calling goes against what is written in the scriptures, the calling is not coming from God.

Satan uses many ways to deceive. The role of man and woman has already been eroded by people thinking that the bible was only written for a certain time. What happened after the role began to erode? Marriage stopped being valued. Women these days are so independent they think it's perfectly okay to raise a child without a man involved, then breaking down the family values. All this, I believe, because Satan whispered in some girl's ear: "surely God was wrong when he said to be submissive...Surely God was wrong when he said sex before marriage was wrong...Surely God couldn't have been right when he said that women weren't to have authority over men. Surely you aren't good enough if you aren't doing the same things men are..."

Now THAT'S sad.

But here's something else to chew on. The female pastor of THIS CHURCH believes she has a calling, too. Yet the gospel she preaches is not the Gospel. But she really believes she is being called by God (well, Goddess in this instance) to preach this.

I pray your message doesn't suffer the same fate.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

This is an interesting article.... I'll put it in my subscriptions list and watch it.

I've been having trouble with women in the church (and indeed, women in God's eyes). I so want to believe that we have as much a purpose in God's eyes as men, but so far, I have found no answers to believe that. Hopefully, this thread should show some answers.

So, thanks.

We have as much purpose in God's eyes, it's just a different purpose than what men serve.

We, as believers, are still called to teach the word. Of that there is no doubt. I'm sure there are many women out there, myself included, who joy in sharing God's word with the people they meet.

The bible itself honors women many times. A book you might want to check out is called "Drawn to the Cross" by Linda Lesniewski. Here's an excellent excerpt from the book:

Know Your Value to Christ

Christ valued the unique qualities women brought to his ministry - devotion, loyalty, and a servant's heart. Jesus also ignored the Middle Eastern culture that prevented men from speaking to women in public. Jesus not only spoke with them publicly, but also incorporated them into his ministry - and he still does! Christ continues to include women from culture all over the world as integral parts of his kingdom's work.

...

Instead of deriving you value from the world's view of women, from friends, work, men, magazines, or the mirror - look to Christ! Immerse yourself in his words. Ask his Spirit to transform your mind and heart into his very own. Live your life forgiven and whole, viewing his love from the foot of the cross.

There's many other great parts to this book that touch upon the role women play in Jesus' ministry.

 

[Captivated]

This is an interesting article.... I'll put it in my subscriptions list and watch it.

I've been having trouble with women in the church (and indeed, women in God's eyes). I so want to believe that we have as much a purpose in God's eyes as men, but so far, I have found no answers to believe that. Hopefully, this thread should show some answers.

So, thanks.

Wow, can I ask how you came to think this? You wouldn't have to be a dyed-in-the-wool feminist to believe that women have equal value and significance of purpose to men in God's eyes. I doubt that those on this thread who oppose women's ordination would say that women were of lower value or had a less significant purpose than men. At least I hope not.

This is an interesting article, by a respected New Testament scholar about women's service in the church (if that is what you mean by purpose):

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/pdf_files/wright_biblical_basis.pdf

I really want to encourage you that you as a person and a women are created and loved by God as much as anyone else and are called to fulfil His purpose for your life; the purpose that is uniquely yours and of unique importance to Him. Is anyone else willing to do the same?