Can a women be a pastor?

[merryheart]

The bible talks about the fall of MAN, yes, but that's in reference to mankind, not Adam. I also surmise that many passages attribute the Fall to Adam because he failed to be the leader of his family. Hmmm...

I'm not really sure what your point is here, anyway. Are you actually arguing that Eve was better somehow?

Who is responsible for the fall of humankind?

The Bible lays the responsibility entirely on Adam.

A confirming reference from the Old Testament comes from Job 31:33:

If I have covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom.

Transgression = rebellion Iniquity = vanity and perversion of spirit

In the New Testament Paul says Adam was not deceived in Romans 5:12-19, 1 Timothy 2:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:22)

SIN COMES THROUGH ADAM

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:12-19 (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22 (NKJV)

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:14 (NKJV)

 

[Christdiedforme]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
You might want to ask God that. He made the statement about women, not me.

And God indeed told Eve that because of her sin, she would feel the pain of childbirth:

Genesis 1:16
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

Oh look at that...your husband will rule over you. Are y'all going to accuse God of being sexist like someone tried accusing Paul?

As another sidenote, this is also a passage that I use to defend marriage existing between a man and a woman.

But I am asking you.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

But I am asking you.

You're asking me to speak for God? Hah. That's a laugh and a half.

Not gonna bite the bait my dear.

Plenty of things that are against God's word happen on a daily basis and nothing bad happens...at that time...does that mean they won't come into play later in the game?

 

[merryheart]

Eve is satan's first mortal enemy

15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman

The enmity of Satan has been hard on women–consider it. Also consider that if there is enmity between Satan and the woman, she is on God's side.

 

[Christdiedforme]

You're asking me to speak for God? Hah. That's a laugh and a half.

Not gonna bite the bait my dear.

Plenty of things that are against God's word happen on a daily basis and nothing bad happens...at that time...does that mean they won't come into play later in the game?

No, I am asking for you to actually think for yourself and what YOU think, not God.

 

[merryheart]

If I said God called me to be a harlot, you guys would be screaming foul. We all know that prostitution corrupts the marriage bed, because sex is reserved for a husband and wife. Me saying "I'm called by God" doesn't make it so, especially when the calling goes directly against scripture.

Some anonymous person once said that women who were looking for equality with men lacked ambition. We have so many other ways to serve the church and God. Why do we need to go against the bible to feel good about ourselves?

It's the religion of humanism, or what I call selfism.

Well, i probably would, but consider that God told the prophet Hosea to marry a harlot... wonder what everyone else thought of *that*

 

[Captivated]

That her husband will rule over her is not a command - it is a consequence of sin and selfishness. Genesis 3:16 has been really mangled in English translation. You should read the work of Katharine Bushnell.

Yes, part of the 'curse' placed on Eve because of her sin, like pain in childbirth.

Adam didn't get away scot-free either:

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Adam and Eve were jointly responsible. I've just studied the lives of women in early modern Europe for my History degree and it struck me very forcibly how much ill-treatment, discrimination etc of women was based on, and justified by, the premise that Eve was solely responsible for the Fall.​

 

[Captivated]

The only problem is for women who WANT to do more and CANNOT because of sexism: discrimination based on one's sex.

It's not just - or even - want, it's being compelled even when you don't want. Do people really believe that Christian women are seeking the ministry purely because of some pleasure they gain from doing so? It's not an easy road for anyone, it is doubly difficult for women having to face opposition such as we see demonstrated on this thread. Many, if not all, of them will be aware of attitudes such as those expressed by some male clergy when the Anglican church made the ordination of women possible, shouting phrases such as "keep the harlots out of the temple".

Has anyone actually read what Strong in Him has posted? Does it sound like she's on a power trip? I know a little of her story and this road was definitely not something she has sought of herself. And what about her constant, repeated and earnest searching for God's will in this matter? Why has God allowed her and those in positions of authority and support around her to continue down this path if it is not something He has called her to do? I find it difficult to believe that God would fail to make it clear to someone who was genuinely seeking His will what His will was. "Ask and it will be given to you...For everyone who asks receives" Matthew 7a & 8a. Why then, when Strong in Him is earnestly and repeatedly asking, is she not receiving anything other than confirmation and affirmation from God and from those around her - if she is wrong? (Forgive me butting in on your behalf, Strong in Him, I was getting frustrated at the lack of response to this question!)

BTW, I am speaking from the position of supporting women such as Strong in Him and Karen while having no similar calling in my life, nor desire either.

 

[Captivated]

I also have a feeling that most of the quotes of the ECFs are taken quite out of context.

Not from my experience, but it's easy enough to check out for yourself. It's hard to place any interpretation other than misogyny even on the short quotes posted. And I respect the ECFs, just think they got it dead wrong - shockingly wrong - about women! It fits into the studying I've been doing about women, and attitudes to women, in early modern Europe too (previous post).

 

[PetersKeys]

No, they cannot because Jesus was a man and so what his apostles. It also denies everything the Apostle Paul said about women being silent in the Church.

 

[Captivated]

Perhaps Paul had the same mentality? Not to say he did but sexism was rampant throughout the history of mankind and Christianity is no exception...even today.

I would recommend a read of "What Paul Really Said About Women: The Apostle's Liberating Views on Equality in Marriage, Leadership and Love" by John T Bristow.

Some good resources here too: www.cbeinternational.org

 

[karen freeinchristman]

It's not just - or even - want, it's being compelled even when you don't want. Do people really believe that Christian women are seeking the ministry purely because of some pleasure they gain from doing so? It's not an easy road for anyone, it is doubly difficult for women having to face opposition such as we see demonstrated on this thread. Many, if not all, of them will be aware of attitudes such as those expressed by some male clergy when the Anglican church made the ordination of women possible, shouting phrases such as "keep the harlots out of the temple".

Amen! My life would be a whole lot easier if I didn't get called to ordained ministry, believe me. The discernment process ensures as far as humanly possible that people who feel called by God and then are subsequently called by their Church are not in this for any kind of self-promotion!

 

[Strong in Him]

I think a lot of women would rather go to a church that is preaching sound gospel than a church that is preaching the gospel that fits the times.

The Gospel is that God came to earth in Jesus - a man who was fully human, fully divine and perfect. Jesus was the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. He offered his life as a once and for all sacrifice for us, and was raised to life again on the third day. Through him alone we have eternal life, salvation, peace with God, reconciliation with God, the Holy Spirit and every spiritual blessing in Christ.

THIS is the Gospel, nothing else. There is nothing/no-one else that can save but Jesus. Church doctrine can't save; your theology of communion can't save; the depth of water you use for baptism and the age at which you baptise can't save; neither can the gender of the minister, your preferred translation of the Bible, the wearing of clerical robes, the use of incense and a hundred other things that are important to us, some of which we can justify from Scripture. These are not the Gospel - they are tools for worship, liturgical preferences and things that God uses to comunicate his message.

We adjust the way in which we present the Gospel according to our times and culture - for example, no one can justify texting or using DVDs or powerpoint from Scripture, but these are an important part of culture today so we use them. IMO this is NOT what women called to ministry are doing - claiming to be called because it's trendy, or they are feminists or because sothey are pressurised into being equal to men. The women I know go forward for ordination only because they believe they are called by the living God, and they can do nothing else but follow his leading. If you have ever experienced his calling on your life - to whatever - you'll know what I mean.

But, even if it could be proved that all women who are so called are feminists, and seeking ordination to be equal with men - would it be so terrible? St Paul said he becomes all things to all men in order to win them for Christ. Half our society is made up of women; how can a male minister represent, identify with or understand the needs etc of women? What about women who may have been abused and there is no way in the world they can open up to a man? Wat about the fact that both men and women are made in the image of God, and he also has feminine qualities?
Some people criticise the pope for pronouncing on marriage and birth control when as a single man he has no idea of the issues involved. Isn't it much the same for male ministers/pastors?

The issue of whether or not women should be ministers is not the Gospel. It cannot save us, it is not even that important. Ministers are servants, people who point others to god, and vessels that God uses to minister and proclaim his Gospel of healing, reconciliation and peace. What gender they are, what they wear etc shouldn't matter.

 

[merryheart]

Well said sister Strong!

I work in tech. My work place is full of rational thinkers and many of them are atheists. Many of the 30 something set are opposed to Christianity entirely and one of their main beefs is the church's treatment of women. It is a *bad* witness, and careful exegesis shows that it is not scriptural, but the opposite. What a shame that so many hearts are hardened by dogmatism about unimportant (all but the Gospel is unimportant according to Paul...) belief systems taking the front seat!

 

[merryheart]

ps: I am called as a minister to those I work with. I witness to them out of my own relationship with God; I shepherd and disciple them when they speak to me of private things and when they come to me for wise advice, and when they bring me their latest beef with another Christian and ask what I think about *that*

The Church is the body of believers - wherever they are - it isn't that building where people come and practice traditions. A pastor is the one who serves and leads by example - not someone who wants to take ungodly authority to themselves and lord it over God's flock.

 

[IronManMatt]

What gender they are, what they wear etc shouldn't matter.

Although we are no longer bound to the Levite priesthood that God ordained under the Old Covenant we learn something about the nature of God what from He has done in the past. The priests had to be males from the Levite tribe and they had to wear very specific clothing and they couldn’t cut their hair or shave or uncover their heads, so on and so forth. Read through Exodus and Leviticus there are several chapters on exactly what a priest is to wear. I’m not saying that these Old Covenant standards are to be followed under the New Covenant because they are not. However, it does show precedence that God does care what gender people in certain roles are and that what they wear can matter. So when in the New Testament Jesus Christ speaking through the Apostle Paul says that a woman cannot teach or have authority over a man it is nothing new and follows with the nature of God. And when Jesus Christ speaks through Paul saying that a Bishop or a deacon must be the husband of one wife it is nothing new for the same thing was required of the Levite Priests.
Just because you don’t think God should care about gender doesn’t mean that he doesn’t care about it. God created male and female for His own reasons and He can tell us to live in whatever way He sees fit and we should obey no matter how we feel about that.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I see.

Just throw out the parts of the bible that don't apply these days.

I hear the same argument as to why homosexuals aren't committing a sin. Because the bible was written for different times.

I also hear the same argument: why would I ever choose to be gay when it is such a hard life?

Peas in a pod.

I don't expect you guys to admit that what you're doing goes against scripture. I'm sure that would throw your whole life in a tailspin. Can't have that, can we.

Good thing Paul finally saw the light clearly.

 

[Strong in Him]

He can tell us to live in whatever way He sees fit and we should obey no matter how we feel about that.

He can; and he can also call women to serve as pastors/ministers in his church if he so chooses. It's his church - we are his servants and stewards of his gifts. He is the potter, we are the clay. He can make whatever vessel he chooses to do whatever task he wants.

He is clearly calling and equipping some women to serve as ordained ministers. You can tell God that he can't do this if you wish - but I'm not going to. As you've just said, he can call us to live in whatever way he sees fit.

 

[Strong in Him]

I see.

Just throw out the parts of the bible that don't apply these days.

Not at all. Some of us are trying to give serious answers about biblical interpretation and ask questions about why you think this Scripture means what you say it means - even though it conflicts with other verses in Scripture.

It's just that we're not getting too many answers - just statements that we have to accept Scripture.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You're getting answers. They're just not answers you like.