Calvinists, why are you Calvinist?

Hammster

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Yes, justice was served, now we just need to accept the forgiveness offered by God as a free gift. If we continue to reject him, turn our backs on him, then he is just in sending us to hell.
How is it just to punish someone for something that Christ took the punishment for? That's injustice.
 
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Leevo

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How is it just to punish someone for something that Christ took the punishment for? That's injustice.

From the article I linked earlier:

"As John 3:16-18 so beautifully tells us: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

But even though Jesus died for all and has provided atonement for all, the intent of the atonement provided was that its actual application (which grants the forgiveness of sins, righteous status with God, and salvation) be conditional on faith in Jesus Christ. This is stated rather clearly in John 3:16-18 quoted above. Out of love, God sacrificed his only Son for the world so that those from the world who trust in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice will benefit from that atoning sacrifice and be saved while those from the world who reject that atoning sacrifice in unbelief will not benefit from it but remain condemned and perish (cf. various other passages that make it clear that faith is the condition upon which and the means by which forgiveness, eternal life, and salvation are received, for example: Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:36; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Acts 16:31; Rom 1:16; chs. 3–4; 10:9-10; 1 Cor 1:21; Gal 2:16; ch. 3; Eph 2:8-9; 1 Tim 1:16)."

This is the best explanation of the Arminian view of this.

I would also challenge your assertion that this is injustice by asking how the Calvinist view isn't?
 
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Hammster

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From the article I linked earlier:

"As John 3:16-18 so beautifully tells us: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

But even though Jesus died for all and has provided atonement for all, the intent of the atonement provided was that its actual application (which grants the forgiveness of sins, righteous status with God, and salvation) be conditional on faith in Jesus Christ. This is stated rather clearly in John 3:16-18 quoted above. Out of love, God sacrificed his only Son for the world so that those from the world who trust in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice will benefit from that atoning sacrifice and be saved while those from the world who reject that atoning sacrifice in unbelief will not benefit from it but remain condemned and perish (cf. various other passages that make it clear that faith is the condition upon which and the means by which forgiveness, eternal life, and salvation are received, for example: Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:36; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Acts 16:31; Rom 1:16; chs. 3–4; 10:9-10; 1 Cor 1:21; Gal 2:16; ch. 3; Eph 2:8-9; 1 Tim 1:16)."

This is the best explanation of the Arminian view of this.

I would also challenge your assertion that this is injustice by asking how the Calvinist view isn't?
Then in your view, the atonement didn't do anything. It just made salvation potential. So Christ didn't actually die for everyone.

The Calvinist view isn't injustice because those who do not believe pay for their own sins.
 
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royal priest

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God is a just God and punishes those who refuse his saving work on the Cross. I would argue that the Calvinist view is the one with the God who doesn't love everyone unconditionally, seeing as he creates them to see them destroyed and makes them unable to do anything else in order to show his "glory."
It seems this is actually consistent with the idea of prevenient grace.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Boy I love this thread. - I used to play an old RPG video game, but Christian Forums has now become my new Hobby!

a) God regenerates the lost person, removing the heart of stone and giving a soft heart that is ready to believe and obey.
b) This immediately results in an eruption of willing faith.
c) This faith immediately results in justification before God
 
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royal priest

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Boy I love this thread. - I used to play an old RPG video game, but Christian Forums has now become my new Hobby!

a) God regenerates the lost person, removing the heart of stone and giving a soft heart that is ready to believe and obey.
b) This immediately results in an eruption of willing faith.
c) This faith immediately results in justification before God
You are so much better off with us Calvinists!
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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calvinist-mug.jpg
 
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Leevo

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Then in your view, the atonement didn't do anything. It just made salvation potential. So Christ didn't actually die for everyone.

The Calvinist view isn't injustice because those who do not believe pay for their own sins.


The atonement did accomplish what God wanted it to. Christ paid for the sins of everyone who puts their faith in Him...

1 John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

In the Calvinist view, God punishes those who are unable to do anything other than what they do. He offers them no true chance at redemption. They are unable to do anything no matter what, unless they are "elect..." That is injustice... In Arminianism, God punishes those who have been offered a chance at redemption and refused it, so the atonement does not apply to them. That is just...
 
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JM

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...and what they do is sin.

In your view, 1 John 2.2, propitiated sins are punished. Propitiation means the wrath of God the Father has been satisfied but according to Arminianism sinners are still punished...as if the death of Christ accomplished nothing.
 
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Leevo

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...and what they do is sin.

In your view, 1 John 2.2, propitiated sins are punished. Propitiation means the wrath of God the Father has been satisfied but according to Arminianism sinners are still punished...as if the death of Christ accomplished nothing.

Christs sacrifice made salvation possible. In the Calvinist view, Christs sacrifice is nearly useless for anyone other than the "elect," too bad for everyone else who can't be saved because it isn't possible for them to do anything other than sin...
 
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JM

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Christs sacrifice made salvation possible. In the Calvinist view, Christs sacrifice is nearly useless for anyone other than the "elect," too bad for everyone else who can't be saved because it isn't possible for them to do anything other than sin...

Leevo, you avoided the point I was making. You quoted 1 John 2.2 which reads, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

I'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic but do you know what propitiation means?

"Propitiation (from Latin propitiāre, "to appease;" from propitius, "gracious") is the act of appeasing or making well-disposed a deity, thus incurring divine favor or avoiding divine retribution."

If you use 1 John 2.2 to mean every single person who has ever lived than you are saying you are a universalist. That is the only conclusion one can make. Are you a universalist?

Christs sacrifice made salvation possible.

This is a very unscriptural idea. Christ is called Christ, "for he shall save his people from their sins." Not to mention that Christ is praying for all those the Father gives Him and He will lose none. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17

You would have to deny the unity of the Most Holy Trinity if you believe the Father does not hear the prayers of the Son.

In the Calvinist view, Christs sacrifice is nearly useless for anyone other than the "elect," too bad for everyone else who can't be saved because it isn't possible for them to do anything other than sin...

This is very, very sad for it calls into question the sinfulness of sin. It's not "too bad" sinners are punished. That idea calls into questions God's righteous judgement against sin. You have the wrong idea about man, you must presuppose mankind is essentially good or at the very least neutral but scripture disagrees with you. We are natural born sinners, sinners by nature and choice and we always choose to sin. God doesn't have to choose anyone but He doesn't.

You say that isn't fair? You demand God bends His will to yours? Here is what Paul wrote to that argument,

"But who are you, O (Leevo) man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" Romans 9

That is Paul's warning to all the freewill works religionists...who are YOU to answer back to God!

God has spoken, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Romans 9

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Christs sacrifice made salvation possible. In the Calvinist view, Christs sacrifice is nearly useless for anyone other than the "elect," too bad for everyone else who can't be saved because it isn't possible for them to do anything other than sin...

Either Jesus paid for the individuals sin or he didn't, If he did they are justified before the father. If he didn't their name wasn't in the book of life, and they will be held accountable and judged accordingly. You can't say he died for everyone, then why isn't everyone's name written in the book of life? -

Regardless either way, he could not have possibly died for everyone, when it says World, it means Jews and Gentiles alike. Be mindful, that Jews were the chosen people of God since Abraham approximately 2,000 B.C, so when Jesus arrives, and he says he loves the world, it was a shock to the Jews, because they were the chosen people of God! Not the rest of the World.
a) they received the law from God,
b) they had the arc of the covenant,
c) they had the tabernacle and temple, God's spirit even resided in the temple and the tabernacle,
d) the Shekinah glory led them through the Wilderness,
e) God opened the Red sea for them
f) God fed them Mana from heaven
g) God sent them 17 prophets, Major and Minor
h) The aforementioned 17 prophets does not include elisha and elijah, -
i) Elisha heals a leaper, defies gravity, multiplies bread, and raises a child from the dead
j) 10 plagues of Israel, culminating with the Exodus

All this and so much more this was for GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE ONLY, if Jesus were to one day come and offer salvation to the gentiles, the pagan, that would be shocking, so when he says World, he means, his Chosen people, the Jews + Gentiles.

What's amazing is most of us are Gentiles! We didn't receive the above referenced miracles and signs. How lucky are we to be grafted in?

If Salvation was only to God's chosen people, then maybe we could argue that, because unless we were a child of Abraham, we could not be saved, But he offered it to even the Gentiles! It's more then fair
 
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twin1954

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Christs sacrifice made salvation possible. In the Calvinist view, Christs sacrifice is nearly useless for anyone other than the "elect," too bad for everyone else who can't be saved because it isn't possible for them to do anything other than sin...
Leevo, you have enough to contend with so I will not add to the people you try to respond to. Been there done that and it isn't easy and often frustrating.
 
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Hammster

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The atonement did accomplish what God wanted it to. Christ paid for the sins of everyone who puts their faith in Him...

1 John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

In the Calvinist view, God punishes those who are unable to do anything other than what they do. He offers them no true chance at redemption. They are unable to do anything no matter what, unless they are "elect..." That is injustice... In Arminianism, God punishes those who have been offered a chance at redemption and refused it, so the atonement does not apply to them. That is just...
It's good that you posted 1 John 2:2. It says that God's wrath is satisfied against sin. So is it the whole world in the way you think? Let's see.

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬ ‭ESV‬‬


It would appear from this text that God's wrath remains on some. In other words, it never left. But you are correct that Christ died for everyone who puts their faith in Him. That does not go against Calvinism.
 
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I just want to say that..unbelief is actually considered a sin in the Bible..there is the sin of unbelief, which is why the Pharisees were condemned by Jesus as was Judas.

So the calvinist argument doesnt hold water. Also the jewish people are the elect of the bible not the calvinists (as john calvin did not even exist back in the time of the bible) .

We are not the elect, the jewish people were. Jesus is actually the chosen one from a long line because of his sinless blood, and thus we saved by our BELIEF and faith in him through grace. Jesus is truth and grace, and he tells his apostles to go and tell others the gospel that we must be BORN AGAIN as nobody is born achristian unless he or she is born again.

Jesus is the one predestined. And thus those who come to faith have our destiny with him. We all have free will to decide to put our trust in Jesus and surrender our unbelief. If we did not, I would not be typing this right now. When we are given the holy spirit we yield to the spirit as our flesh has died along with Jesus when he was crucified. This is also a matter of free will, nobody is a robot christian. We align our will with Gods will and make choice everyday to follow Him.

If we judged others for not being christians and condemn them in our hearts as damned then we are being judge not God Himself. Only He knows their hearts and we cannot say just because we are saved that nobody else can be, so why bother? That is the danger of the doctrine of calvinism, it tries to justify not spreading the gospel. It just makes you an ineffective witness with no love in your heart. Jesus came for all mankind! Even Paul, who was a Pharisee! The minute he placed his trust in Jesus. How do you explain his conversion? We have indivudual faith, which we need to apply to our lives but Jesus sacrfice was once and for all and was intended so that mankind could be reconciled to our creator. Satan cannot created anything, he just sets out to destroy creation and mar Gods workmanship.
 
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Hammster

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I just want to say that..unbelief is actually considered a sin in the Bible..there is the sin of unbelief, which is why the Pharisees were condemned by Jesus as was Judas.

So the calvinist argument doesnt hold water. Also the jewish people are the elect of the bible not the calvinists (as john calvin did not even exist back in the time of the bible) .

We are not the elect, the jewish people were. Jesus is actually the chosen one from a long line because of his sinless blood, and thus we saved by our BELIEF and faith in him through grace. Jesus is truth and grace, and he tells his apostles to go and tell others the gospel that we must be BORN AGAIN as nobody is born achristian unless he or she is born again.

Jesus is the one predestined. And thus those who come to faith have our destiny with him. We all have free will to decide to put our trust in Jesus and surrender our unbelief. If we did not, I would not be typing this right now. When we are given the holy spirit we yield to the spirit as our flesh has died along with Jesus when he was crucified. This is also a matter of free will, nobody is a robot christian. We align our will with Gods will and make choice everyday to follow Him.

If we judged others for not being christians and condemn them in our hearts as damned then we are being judge not God Himself. Only He knows their hearts and we cannot say just because we are saved that nobody else can be, so why bother? It just makes you an ineffective witness with no love in your heart. Jesus came for all mankind!
If you could offer up any scriptural support for any of this, that would be great.
 
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twin1954

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I just want to say that..unbelief is actually considered a sin in the Bible..there is the sin of unbelief, which is why the Pharisees were condemned by Jesus as was Judas.

So the calvinist argument doesnt hold water. Also the jewish people are the elect of the bible not the calvinists (as john calvin did not even exist back in the time of the bible) .

We are not the elect, the jewish people were. Jesus is actually the chosen one from a long line because of his sinless blood, and thus we saved by our BELIEF and faith in him through grace. Jesus is truth and grace, and he tells his apostles to go and tell others the gospel that we must be BORN AGAIN as nobody is born achristian unless he or she is born again.

Jesus is the one predestined. And thus those who come to faith have our destiny with him. We all have free will to decide to put our trust in Jesus and surrender our unbelief. If we did not, I would not be typing this right now. When we are given the holy spirit we yield to the spirit as our flesh has died along with Jesus when he was crucified. This is also a matter of free will, nobody is a robot christian. We align our will with Gods will and make choice everyday to follow Him.

If we judged others for not being christians and condemn them in our hearts as damned then we are being judge not God Himself. Only He knows their hearts and we cannot say just because we are saved that nobody else can be, so why bother? It just makes you an ineffective witness with no love in your heart. Jesus came for all mankind!
Was not unbelief one of the sins that Christ died for? If He died for all the sin of all mankind did He not die for their unbelief as well?
 
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It doesnt seem like the calvinists on here have a real testimony. Its just something they learned through reading another persons opionion of scripture and they fit that scripture into a little tulip like box. Sorry. Thats what im seeing.

Calvin's name does not save anyone, Jesus does.
 
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Hammster

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It doesnt seem like the calvinists on here have a real testimony. Its just something they learned through reading another persons opionion of scripture and they fit that scripture into a little tulip like box. Sorry. Thats what im seeing.

Calvin's name does not save anyone, Jesus does.
When was our testimony asked for? Your insults have become tiring.
 
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