How do Calvinists interpret texts like 2 Kings 20.1-6, Jeremiah 3.6-7, and 18.7-10 (just for a few examples) in light of their "classical" position regarding God's perfect and complete foreknowledge?
Hold on!How do Calvinists interpret texts like 2 Kings 20.1-6, Jeremiah 3.6-7, and 18.7-10 (just for a few examples) in light of their "classical" position regarding God's perfect and complete foreknowledge?
Thanks. Apparently I'm in desperate need of rescuing.Hold on!
The Cavalry is coming!
In the faith,
Clare
Why are you asking in Unorthodox Theology?
2 Kings 20:1-6, "You shall die and not live...I will add 15 years to your life." | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
I'm not sure what your question is regarding Jeremiah 3:6-7.
Only because I was told to.Why are you asking in Unorthodox Theology?
God foreordained that he would change his mind here?!? Does that honestly sound logical to you (or anybody)? Furthermore, if God foreknew that he was going to change his mind concerning Hezekiah's death, doesn't that show considerable cruelty on his part?
Notice that God "thought" one thing was going to happen, but it didn't ("I thought, 'After she has done these things, she will return to me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it").I'm not sure what your question is regarding Jeremiah 3:6-7.
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What does this imply? What does it mean?
(And don't forget Jer 18.7-10.)
It seems the Cavalry has been detained.How do Calvinists interpret texts like 2 Kings 20.1-6, Jeremiah 3.6-7, and 18.7-10 (just for a few examples) in light of their "classical" position regarding God's perfect and complete foreknowledge?
God foreordained that he would change his mind here?!? Does that honestly sound logical to you (or anybody)?
It seems the Cavalry has been detained.
Could not all of these situations have been just as God planned them to be
in order to make his power and glory known (Ro 9:17)?
Jer 18:7-10 is what is meant by "God changing his mind."
We see there that his mind to punish the unrepentant and to forgive the repentant does not change,
only his way changes in accordance with his mind.
In the faith,
Clare
God foreordained that he would change his mind here?!? [WRT 2 Kings 20:1-6] Does that honestly sound logical to you (or anybody)? Furthermore, if God foreknew that he was going to change his mind concerning Hezekiah's death, doesn't that show considerable cruelty on his part?
God: "Get your affairs in order, fella, because you are definitely going to die -- and soon."
Hezekiah ("weeping bitterly"): "What?!? Please, no! I've been good! I've faithfully served you!"
God: "Just kidding."
But strangertoo, what does the rest of this verse say? The verses preceding v. 6 speak of God bringing his judgement against the people of Israel. But then God clarifies the situation: "But because I, YHWH, do not change, you sons of Jacob will not be destroyed."I think I finally worked out what this thread is about maybe [LOL?] :-
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
Yeah, all due respect, strangertoo (and I mean that sincerely), but understanding "timelessness" like this is very Greek, not Hebrew.yet God says He can change what happens if and when men change...
It CAN seem like a paradox ...
until one realises that God is time-less , which makes it impossible for God as spirit to change ...
I don't think time is that difficult a concept.but equally means that God knows everything at any time ... including all the changes that life is about...
so what we see and talk about as changes are just an inevitable 'timeline' , completely fixed to God and only seeming to be cause and effect to us because we hardly understand what time is ...
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you didn't understand it, why were you bored waiting for everybody else to "catch up" with what you already knew and, presumably, understood?I think I began to understand this only when I started getting bored waiting for folks to catch up with accepting what has been known and written down for millennia... the only problems being that men can lie and so they do, even to themselves, even about God ... so it can come to seem that we don't know because we even unlearn oiur conscience which tried to tell us how to all be happy in life... [LOL?]
You will find my claim unsatisfying
But strangertoo, what does the rest of this verse say?The verses preceding v. 6 speak of God bringing his judgement against the people of Israel. But then God clarifies the situation: "But because I, YHWH, do not change, you sons of Jacob will not be destroyed."
So what's being communicated here? That God never ontologically changes? Or, that he's not fickle; that he will keep his covenant promises to Israel? As the following verses testify, God is telling his people to return to a proper relationship with him and, in turn, he will bless them.
In point of fact, all the verses where God declares that he doesn't change have to do with how, despite his people constantly disobeying him and failing to live up to their side of the covenant, he is not like them and is nonetheless ultimately trustworthy and reliable.
Yeah, all due respect, strangertoo (and I mean that sincerely), but understanding "timelessness" like this is very Greek, not Hebrew.
The ancient Greeks (along with everybody else in the ancient world) believed that time was cyclical; that what goes around literally comes around. They believed that everything that happens has already happened before sometime in the distant past, and will happen again sometime in the distant future. Viewing time this way, it's easy to see how the philosopher Plato would conclude that THE god -- the Ideal god -- would possess perfect and complete foreknowledge of all future events, if only because it's all happened before.
God knows all possible outcomes among all present causes. He certainly knows what he himself is going to do in the future (which accounts for biblical prophecy). But the attribute of omniscience is not put in jeopardy here, even if God's knowledge of all future events is neither perfect nor complete, simply because the future hasn't happened yet; there's nothing there to be known.
I believe you, and Newton thought the same, but he has been proven wrong... Hawking said famously that imaginary time may be more real than real time, but even Hawking does not understand time the way the spirit explains itI don't think time is that difficult a concept.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you didn't understand it, why were you bored waiting for everybody else to "catch up" with what you already knew and, presumably, understood?
2 Kings is not God literally changing His mind. He knew from eternity what was going to occur and planned on changing His mind.How do Calvinists interpret texts like 2 Kings 20.1-6, Jeremiah 3.6-7, and 18.7-10 (just for a few examples) in light of their "classical" position regarding God's perfect and complete foreknowledge?
Lol! Sorry.It seems the Cavalry has been detained.
If this is indeed the case, then why use such inaccurate, not to say, even deceptive language?Could not all of these situations have been just as God planned them to be in order to make his power and glory known (Ro 9:17)?
Okay. But even if we assume that God is always consistent in how he treats people based on their repentance or lack thereof, if his "way changes in accordance with his mind," doesn't that necessitate his mind changing, as well?Jer 18:7-10 is what is meant by "God changing his mind."
We see there that his mind to punish the unrepentant and to forgive the repentant does not change,
only his way changes in accordance with his mind.
In the faith,
Clare
... its a pity you didn't read the rest of the thread...