Bridging the divide

[MKJ]

I also mentioned Rowan Williams, who is Welsh, and participated in Druidic ceremonies because of his Welsh heritage. sorry, but just because I am proud of my Welsh heritage (which I am), I am gonna avoid any Druidic anything. and there is something terribly amiss to remain in communion with folks that are so theologically off.

Well, no, that is pretty much a myth. It is kind of a shame to see it still spread around.

The "druidic" group in question is not actually religious at all. It's a literary group. In traditional Welsh culture, druids were also bards, and that is their interest and use of the term - it is society that promotes Welsh language and literature.

It has no theological stance at all - it is about as pagan as using the word "Easter".

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, no, that is pretty much a myth. It is kind of a shame to see it still spread around.

The "druidic" group in question is not actually religious at all. It's a literary group. In traditional Welsh culture, druids were also bards, and that is their interest and use of the term - it is society that promotes Welsh language and literature.

It has no theological stance at all - it is about as pagan as using the word "Easter".

the ceremony that he was a part of was very pagan, the pictures looked like a pagan ceremony. even if the group has nothing to do with actual worshipping paganism. makes about as much sense as a Christian soldier to put a berzerker bear skin on because he is culturally Scandanavian. so to think that one can participate in ceremonies that are "spiritual" but not for spiritual reasons without being affected I don't think works. I cannot imagine a Coptic Christian dressing up like a pagan Egyptian priest, sing praises to God, to Pagan Egyptian rituals, and think that it does not matter.

it's like that one British Anglican priest who hosts a show about seeking the holy across the world. one episode he went to a Wiccan coven, and laid around naked with the witches all night and was there for their orgy, although he did not participate. sure, I don't see the guy bowing down to any idols of Hecate anytime soon, but what the heck is a Christian priest doing there?

 

[Cappadocious]

I'm the same way. Personally I wish they would ban the Olympics.

For once I agree with Buzuxi.

 

[MKJ]

For once I agree with Buzuxi.

I hate the Olympics.

But, they are funny in the sense that the ancient ones were all about what the Greeks thought it meant to be human.

And so with the modern ones - they are all about money.

 

[MKJ]

the ceremony that he was a part of was very pagan, the pictures looked like a pagan ceremony. even if the group has nothing to do with actual worshipping paganism. makes about as much sense as a Christian soldier to put a berzerker bear skin on because he is culturally Scandanavian. so to think that one can participate in ceremonies that are "spiritual" but not for spiritual reasons without being affected I don't think works. I cannot imagine a Coptic Christian dressing up like a pagan Egyptian priest, sing praises to God, to Pagan Egyptian rituals, and think that it does not matter.

it's like that one British Anglican priest who hosts a show about seeking the holy across the world. one episode he went to a Wiccan coven, and laid around naked with the witches all night and was there for their orgy, although he did not participate. sure, I don't see the guy bowing down to any idols of Hecate anytime soon, but what the heck is a Christian priest doing there?

People dress up in traditional costumes all the time, including bear skin hats. People participate in traditional, non-religious cultural rituals all the time. Often those costumes and rituals pre-date Christianity. Some of them used to have religious meaning, but now they don't.

A ton of pagan practices that did have religious connotations have been integrated into Christian traditions and festivals, mostly to no ill effect at all.

You can't just go around claiming someone is involved in pagan worship when all they have done is join a perfectly legitimate and well respected literary society, even if they do like to dress up in weird costumes.

It is like saying that people who play D&D and wear weird costumes are actually worshiping the devil.


I don't know anything about the guy with the religious show.

 

[Mariya116]

Anglicans say "In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord" like the Orthodox. I went to the Requiaem on All Souls Day on Monday and I heard.

 

[Cappadocious]

You can't just go around claiming someone is involved in pagan worship when all they have done is join a perfectly legitimate and well respected literary society, even if they do like to dress up in weird costumes.

 

[ArmyMatt]

People dress up in traditional costumes all the time, including bear skin hats. People participate in traditional, non-religious cultural rituals all the time. Often those costumes and rituals pre-date Christianity. Some of them used to have religious meaning, but now they don't.

A ton of pagan practices that did have religious connotations have been integrated into Christian traditions and festivals, mostly to no ill effect at all.

You can't just go around claiming someone is involved in pagan worship when all they have done is join a perfectly legitimate and well respected literary society, even if they do like to dress up in weird costumes.

It is like saying that people who play D&D and wear weird costumes are actually worshiping the devil.


I don't know anything about the guy with the religious show.

I didn't say everyone or everything. but when someone is the head of a religious body, and he is out doing something that looks pagan and sounds pagan, and has open pagan symbolism (not symbolism that has been Christianized), that is probably something not to do. St Paul talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols means nothing, but if it causes a scandal, he would give up meat. with the resurgance of Wicca, Druidism, and the New Age, it is probably something that a cleric should avoid. especially when the body that he is the head of is causing a lot of scandal with modernism and ecumenism.

it would be like if the Pope consecrated some Catholic woman as Vestial Virgins, as a pro Itailain cultural thing. yeah, they all might be devout Catholics, but that is not a smart thing to do.

 

[MKJ]

I didn't say everyone or everything. but when someone is the head of a religious body, and he is out doing something that looks pagan and sounds pagan, and has open pagan symbolism (not symbolism that has been Christianized), that is probably something not to do. St Paul talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols means nothing, but if it causes a scandal, he would give up meat. with the resurgance of Wicca, Druidism, and the New Age, it is probably something that a cleric should avoid. especially when the body that he is the head of is causing a lot of scandal with modernism and ecumenism.

it would be like if the Pope consecrated some Catholic woman as Vestial Virgins, as a pro Itailain cultural thing. yeah, they all might be devout Catholics, but that is not a smart thing to do.

Actually, their symbolism is as much Christian as anything else. Their "ceremonies" are for recognizing literary achievement. Because the Celts were an oppressed people, and their language was for many years oppressed, when the society for their promotion was formed they looked for historical connections to a time when the language and literary expression was healthy. Unfortunately, it was the Church that did some of the oppressing, which is why the Celtic Christian literary tradition did not grow as it ought to have.

I don't think that anyone should be discouraged from joining a well known literary society because some people are too lazy to discover, or want to not notice, that it is not a religious body.

It's a well known organization. People will take all kinds of things out of context, and most of the time that is because they get something out of doing so. You can't stop them from doing so if that is what they are determined to do.

The Queen is a member for goodness sake. It isn't a controversial group.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Actually, their symbolism is as much Christian as anything else. Their "ceremonies" are for recognizing literary achievement. Because the Celts were an oppressed people, and their language was for many years oppressed, when the society for their promotion was formed they looked for historical connections to a time when the language and literary expression was healthy. Unfortunately, it was the Church that did some of the oppressing, which is why the Celtic Christian literary tradition did not grow as it ought to have.

I don't think that anyone should be discouraged from joining a well known literary society because some people are too lazy to discover, or want to not notice, that it is not a religious body.

It's a well known organization. People will take all kinds of things out of context, and most of the time that is because they get something out of doing so. You can't stop them from doing so if that is what they are determined to do.

The Queen is a member for goodness sake. It isn't a controversial group.

and Christian Freemasons make the same arguments. just subistute fraternity for literary society, and Presidents for Queen. so whether it's a well known orgainization or not doesn't matter. and there is no just as much Christian as anything else. it is either Christian or it isn't.

if it was not a contraversial group, it would not be causing controversy, and it has.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and it goes back to the St Paul thing. in a body that is being criticized for stances on homosexuality, women's ordination, abortion, and ecumenism, it's prolly not a good thing for the head of that church to join a Druidic order.

 

[Cappadocious]

and Christian Freemasons make the same arguments.

But the freemasons have an actual sort of religious belief system.

 

[GregConstantine]

"But the freemasons have an actual sort of religious belief system."

You're missing Matt's point.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But the freemasons have an actual sort of religious belief system.

the Christian freemasons say they don't. that it is only about fraternity and social justice. hence me saying they make the same arguments that are being made to defend this Druidic order.

 

[Cappadocious]

Except for the former it would be false, and the latter true.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Except for the former it would be false, and the latter true.

again, not from the freemason Christians' POV. you are still missing my point.

 

[MKJ]

again, not from the freemason Christians' POV. you are still missing my point.

yes, from a Freemasons POV.

When Masons say they have no religious position, they are either mistaken, or telling a lie. They do in fact hold or teach a philosophical position about the nature of reality and the nature of religion. Some members don't really realize that or think it is insignificant, but it is easy enough to find out about it.

When members of the Gorsedd of Bards say they are not a religious body, they are telling the truth. They neither have nor teach a philosophical position. They never have. Their purpose is to encourage artists who work in the Welsh language.

If you are going to disallow this sort of thing, there are a heck of a lot of other cultural festivals and traditions that would have to be disallowed as well. But no one is talking about banning the Burry man or Japanese tea ceremony - both of which may or actually have had religious elements at one time.

The only reason for to people think the Gorsedd of Bards is involved in religious ceremonies for more time than it takes to ask who they are is that they somehow get some sort of satisfaction out of it. It's a kind of slander or way to look down on others for totally innocent things.

 

[Protoevangel]

again, not from the freemason Christians' POV. you are still missing my point.

Instead of missing your point, it looks to me like he's denying it.


An interesting article from OrthodoxEngland (which is still somewhat critical of Rowan Williams) states, "And we can thoroughly dismiss the disgraceful claims of tabloid newspapers that Archbishop Williams became a 'pagan druid' when he was recently honoured by the Welsh national poetry society (for that is what it is) at their Eistedfodd."
source: The New Archbishop of Canterbury: Rowan Williams


Honestly, I don't know enough about the "druidic order" to make any kind of assertion regarding the debate. At the least, it seems (to me anyway) to have been poor judgement, inviting scandal... But the Anglicans aren't The Church (cf Luke 9:49-50), so they chose their own path, wherever it leads.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, from a Freemasons POV.

When Masons say they have no religious position, they are either mistaken, or telling a lie. They do in fact hold or teach a philosophical position about the nature of reality and the nature of religion. Some members don't really realize that or think it is insignificant, but it is easy enough to find out about it.

When members of the Gorsedd of Bards say they are not a religious body, they are telling the truth. They neither have nor teach a philosophical position. They never have. Their purpose is to encourage artists who work in the Welsh language.

If you are going to disallow this sort of thing, there are a heck of a lot of other cultural festivals and traditions that would have to be disallowed as well. But no one is talking about banning the Burry man or Japanese tea ceremony - both of which may or actually have had religious elements at one time.

The only reason for to people think the Gorsedd of Bards is involved in religious ceremonies for more time than it takes to ask who they are is that they somehow get some sort of satisfaction out of it. It's a kind of slander or way to look down on others for totally innocent things.

again, from the Christian Freemasons POV, they use the same arguments that you are using. there was a thread a while back and every Christian freemason who defended being a mason said the same things you are.

and the Japanese tea ceremony, at least the one with Zen Buddhist overtones and is a part of that spirituality, should also probably be left alone.

 

[Cappadocious]

again, from the Christian Freemasons POV, they use the same arguments that you are using. there was a thread a while back and every Christian freemason who defended being a mason said the same things you are.

"Festivus features a Messiah. It's absolutely clear from the holiday's hymns and celebrations."

"Christianity features a Messiah. It's absolutely clear from the holiday's hymns and celebrations."

By your logic, as the former is false, the latter is false by virtue of using the same justifications.