Born Again?

[Paradoxum]

God created marriage and holds it in high regard...
Then the Lord God made the rib He had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man. And the man said:This one, at last, is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh; this one will be called “woman,” for she was taken from man. This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh. [Genesis 2:22-24]

This is ultimately a parallel to the relationship of Christ to the Church...
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This mystery is profound, but I am talking about Christ and the church. [Ephesians 5:31-32]

The writer to the Hebrews further illustrates...
Marriage must be respected by all, and the marriage bed kept undefiled, because God will judge immoral people and adulterers. [Hebrews 13:4]

A person who has been changed from the inside cannot continue on a constant path of sin...
This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [1 John 2:3-4]

The Bible even tells us that God's law is written on our hearts, explaining why your conscience tells you it is wrong...
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. [Romans 2:15-16]

Let me know if you want to discuss further...

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me, but when I ask why it is wrong I don't mean to ask what the Bible says or what church authorities say. I want an argument for why it is wrong. I know many Christians appeal to the Bible solely for their morality (or so they think), but now base my morality on trying to base it on basic principles and arguing rationally from them.

I think it is a fair point that someone saved my not be able to continually sin, but is that really the case? I don't know.

Right, and I was pointing out that this isn't what Christianity has traditionally meant when we talk about the new birth. Historically the new birth is understood as happening at Baptism, this is the position of the ancient Church and is still the position of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican (including Episcopalian), Moravian and other Historic Protestant bodies.

The idea that the new birth is when "someone purposely commits to following Christ" usually accompanied by "walking down the aisle" or "saying the sinner's prayer" and similar is an entirely modern notion.

I wouldn't equate being born again with saying a prayer nor being baptised. It is the inner transformation, whenever that is. If there is no inner transformation what is the point in using the word born again which implies a change? I guess you might think something magical and undetectable happens at baptism, but I see no reason to think this, especially infant baptism. If there is nothing different about a real Christian other than having gone underwater then its probably not worth it.

Sorry if that sounds a bit too confrontational.

Yes it is hard to describe in words only because those words will have to fit your limited understanding and experience ... "better felt than telt".
As Jesus said "unles you be born again you cannot see (understand) the kingdom of God". Paul and the early church saw it this way:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him ... For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God"
(1 Cor. 2:9-11)

I thought I was "born again" because I had sincerely been led through "the sinner's prayer" etc but it wasn't till I met spirit-filled people that I realised they had a nature I couldn't attain to - God's.

Here's my story:
I was brought up Anglican, but I only went because my dad wanted me to go, there was nothing inspiring there for me so when I left for University I stopped going. While there I started to consider the purpose of my life, and realised I didn't have one that satisfied me, "the world was my oyster", but there was no pearl! I tended to worry & had no answers, no fulfilling purpose, I no longer believed in my own ways.

When some people who obviously believed in the bible spoke to me I decided to investigate properly. I started going to various church meetings and was told to pray a “sinners prayer”, believing, and as such I was "a Christian". For the next 18 months I continued going to meetings and reading books by people considered to be "Christian leaders" to try and work out God's will for me, without success! All I got was opinions.

Then I met people who were not going to different churches and reading lots of books about God, they had a confidence and contentment I had not attained to, despite my efforts. I realised my relationship with God was mostly one-way, from me, not the daily, growing 2-way relationship they seemed to have.

They had received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (an unlearned prayer language that God leads his people in, cos only he knows his perfect will for us, it allows him to minister his grace & love to our hearts - 1 Cor. 14v2, 4; Jude 20-21). They also had other direct input and leading from God. After a while I realised I was getting nowhere spiritually so for the first time I actually prayed expecting God to *do* something... namely give me the same as them or whatever else I needed.

One evening I was alone in my room, not doubting or fearing, just believing God had said yes to me (because he could have no favourites), and wanting nothing more, I prayed and spoke in tongues and in the days that followed I realised I had the Life spoken of in the bible, whereas before I was trying to be something I was not!
Now I appreciate why things are the way they are, and more importantly, what life can be like.

I left the old churches because I could see they was as I was before, not as I wanted to be. The church I'm now in is like the one in the new testament, all members have the new Life, we have a unity I never found before. I now have contentment and fulfilling purpose that only the living God can give. I am now able to know God's thoughts and live according to His nature because I have His heart and mind through the Holy Spirit in me.

- - - - -

How important is it for you to know salvation for yourself?
In Luke 11:5-13 Jesus tells a parable of receiving the Spirit, the woman accepts that she has nothing to offer people - are you humble enough to admit that?
I realised it and that I was missing out .. I wanted the best and received it ... that was 25 years ago.

I have spoken in tongues before. I still can, which does make me question if it really is tongues or perhaps it proves I still am Christian. More likely is perhaps that the act of tongues is physical and but meaning spiritual.

Did you feel any different or see the world any different after you think you were born again? If different, how different?

 

[Nails74]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me, but when I ask why it is wrong I don't mean to ask what the Bible says or what church authorities say. I want an argument for why it is wrong. I know many Christians appeal to the Bible solely for their morality (or so they think), but now base my morality on trying to base it on basic principles and arguing rationally from them.

As I believe the Bible to be God's word, I understand that this is where objective morality originates...from The Creator.

Look at it from the other side...in an atheistic worldview, lying, cheating, and stealing are neither right or wrong. There is no moral "should and shouldn't". Why? Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective moral truth is established...morality is up for grabs.

I think it is a fair point that someone saved my not be able to continually sin, but is that really the case? I don't know.

I am not saying that Christians never sin...sanctification is a process. What I am saying is that I am no longer a slave to sin...because I have been set free.

Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey —either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were transferred to, and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. [Romans 6:16-18]

Someone that goes back to the same sin again and again, continually, without regard for the One who saved them by taking the punishment for their sin...has not been regenerated.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. [Ezekiel 36:26-27]

 

[StormHawk]

...I have spoken in tongues before. I still can, which does make me question if it really is tongues or perhaps it proves I still am Christian.

A Christian is anyone who has received the Spirit, and he never leaves us in this life.

Did you feel any different or see the world any different after you think you were born again? If different, how different?

I don't see the World differently, I see myself differently, I have what the people of the World are seeking but not finding. I have this treasure in an earthen vessel so I tune into God daily by praying in tongues and getting face to face with people (and on the 'net) to see who wants what God offers.
God blesses my undertaking.

You seem to be in limbo, to appreciate your potential & calling you should do as God recommends and get involved with people who are doing the right thing - church like the New Testament describes.

 

[razeontherock]

Said in a more explicit way, yes. To get to the point: Why is premarital sex wrong? In fact I would go as far as saying that if this wasn't hammer into my mind I might still be Christian. Perhaps not, because of my intellectual doubt is very much real, but still I would have a better chance. Even though I think it is possible for someone to be Christian and engage is such behaviour, it has been forged into my subconscious that I can't be a Christian and accept such things, and so I probably couldn't be Christian again even if most of the doubt left.

So I am saying that I don't think it is a sin consciously, but my subconscious tells me it is.

Realize this is THE single most difficult issue for many many believers! And especially women, and especially here in the States, have been taught by our society that sex is somehow wrong, or even dirty. You can see where that has brought us: our "social pendulum" has swung too far the other way, and our society is hyper-sexualized. (Or at least many sectors within it are)

Are you familiar with the parable of the rich young ruler? Matthew 19. It's very short; take a minute to refresh your memory. You are young, and it's pretty likely a lot of people find you attractive. Put yourself in this parable! (Along these lines) What does God require? To literally "give all that you have to the poor" to follow Him, so that you're left destitute? I don't believe that was our Lord's message to the person in that parable. I think that would be hyper-literalizing it. What Jesus did, was "put the finger of God" right on his main weakness. Also notice that this person came to Christ boasting in his own righteousness, as if there was nothing God could require of him he couldn't do.

He went away sorrowful. Does that mean he never followed Jesus? Does that mean he had his pride broken, and came to humble himself before the Lord which is the only way any of us can approach Him, in Spirit and in Truth? We simply aren't told. I hope I have made it clear how YOU don't need to literally "go away sorrowful," never to see the Lord again except to meet His condemnation on the last day.

It's important for you (for all of us) to learn what God's view of sex is, and to recognize it's healthy. It's like following a manufacturer's recommended guidelines for product use He sees it as pure, wholesome, part of Holiness; just not the ultimate glorified be-all and end-all of everything that so many try to make it out to be. Christianity =/= taking a vow of chastity. It is God working in you (us) both to will and to do of His good pleasure - and us working out what He puts in us.

You will note that provision for forgiveness has already been made. Rejecting Christianity because of our humanity (sexuality is part of being human) is kinda like a piece of wood rejecting paint. In some applications, wood needs paint. (Let's not go into how some prefer varnish to paint, and how that might apply to the analogy here )

Realize you're not alone:

(1 Cor 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]."



In short, the whole human family is in this together!

 

[razeontherock]

when I ask why it is wrong I don't mean to ask what the Bible says or what church authorities say. I want an argument for why it is wrong. I know many Christians appeal to the Bible solely for their morality (or so they think), but now base my morality on trying to base it on basic principles and arguing rationally from them.

This is a reasonable stance You want to understand this world you find yourself living in. I urge you to turn towards Him not only in your effort, but as the main way of making this effort. I suggest you need a definition of G-d: the power it took to put the Earth under your feet.

Who better to help you understand things you don't yet understand? (And again, we're all in the same boat)

I think it is a fair point that someone saved my not be able to continually sin, but is that really the case? I don't know.

DISCLAIMER: what I'm about to say, will be refuted by some. That's ok. Taken as intended, it's still a strong point. That which is spirit is spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh. (Note that this is directly related to your thread topic, of being born again)

Our Spiritual entity, the "new (wo)man," is not going to sin. Our flesh certainly does. This leaves us caught in the middle, in a contradiction, a contest of wills, and en epic clash. It's a marathon race, not a sprint. Does this mean that Jesus gets out of the car as soon as you drive 1 k.m.h. over the speed limit? (Or whatever example you can think of of the most trivial stepping over the bounds of the law)

It comes down to making a conscious choice, to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This should be your name's sake, since it is full of paradoxes! It is simultaneously the hardest thing any of us can ever do, and a light burden, an easy yoke. It is the most rewarding thing any of us will ever do, and yet this world will call us fools for what we miss out on. We labor, to enter into that rest ...

I wouldn't equate being born again with saying a prayer nor being baptised. It is the inner transformation, whenever that is. If there is no inner transformation what is the point in using the word born again which implies a change? I guess you might think something magical and undetectable happens at baptism, but I see no reason to think this, especially infant baptism. If there is nothing different about a real Christian other than having gone underwater then its probably not worth it.

This can make Lutherans get all huffy, having a pet theology challenged like that - but it's perfectly Scriptural:

"And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. (Matthew 3:7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

Dead ritual is just that - dead.

I have spoken in tongues before. I still can, which does make me question if it really is tongues or perhaps it proves I still am Christian. More likely is perhaps that the act of tongues is physical and but meaning spiritual.

If I may, don't worry about "proving you're still a Christian." There is simply no frame of reference for any thought like this, Biblically. If you want to "make your calling and election sure," 2 Peter 1 shows you how. And praying in tongues has nothing to do with it

I urge you to break away from teachings of man that you already realize don't make sense, and to use the noggin' God gave you. Praying in tongues is indeed a physical act, and since it has a Spiritual "dimension" to it, it is but one way to bring these 2 realms together. If you do that (unite Spirit with flesh) by every means available to you, things will become clearer.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it