"Being born from a virgin"

[Hestha]

Jesus is often described as being born from the virgin Mary and adopted by his stepfather Joseph. His real father is said to be God. So, if God fertilizes Mary to produce a baby out of wedlock, does that mean that Jesus is the product of fornication or adultery or illegitimate sexual intercourse? If that is the case, are Christians really worshiping a bastard child? I thought the Virgin Mary was the perpetual virgin, free from original sin, because of her own "Immaculate Conception". How can sexual relations with God be sinless but wanton sexual relations with people outside of marriage be sinful?

Having sexual relations with a god is not a new concept. In Ancient Greek and Roman mythology, Zeus had sexual relations with mortal women, like how he seduces Leda in the form of a swan. Perhaps, the same thing happens in Christianity in which God seduces Mary?

 

[Paroder]

NO!!!!!!!!!!. God did not have sexual relation with Mary...

 

[Hestha]

NO!!!!!!!!!!. God did not have sexual relation with Mary...

That's not very helpful. Any evidence to support your opinion?

 

[ViaCrucis]

God is not Jesus' biological father. That is, Jesus is not the biological offspring resulting between relations between God and Mary; there is no Divine "sperm". Mary's ovum wasn't technically fertilized, whether by human seed or imagined "divine seed". That's what makes the Virgin birth miraculous.

When we say that Jesus is the Son of God we don't mean because God was His parent when He was born from Mary, we mean that He is the Son of God--and has always been the Son. His Birth from God didn't happen two thousand years ago, but as the Nicene Creed states:

"...eternally begotten of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."

Eternally begotten, there was no time that the Son came into existence; He has always been the Son.

He united Himself with human nature in Mary's womb, but the only contributor to His humanity is the Blessed Virgin herself. Jesus is flesh of her flesh, blood of her blood. Again, there was no divine "sperma", no seed that impregnated Mary. She became pregnant without impregnation, that's the miracle.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hestha]

God is not Jesus' biological father. That is, Jesus is not the biological offspring resulting between relations between God and Mary; there is no Divine "sperm". Mary's ovum wasn't technically fertilized, whether by human seed or imagined "divine seed". That's what makes the Virgin birth miraculous.

When we say that Jesus is the Son of God we don't mean because God was His parent when He was born from Mary, we mean that He is the Son of God--and has always been the Son. His Birth from God didn't happen two thousand years ago, but as the Nicene Creed states:

"...eternally begotten of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."

Eternally begotten, there was no time that the Son came into existence; He has always been the Son.

He united Himself with human nature in Mary's womb, but the only contributor to His humanity is the Blessed Virgin herself. Jesus is flesh of her flesh, blood of her blood. Again, there was no divine "sperma", no seed that impregnated Mary. She became pregnant without impregnation, that's the miracle.

-CryptoLutheran

Hmmm... I suppose that would support the Immaculate Conception of Mary, right? I mean, Mary must be sinless in order to not contribute any of her sins to Jesus by giving him part of her flesh?

I have a very hard time believing in biblical miracles. For one thing, they sound very fictional or surreal, as if they do not connect at all with reality. Still trying to figure out how a Christian tries to find "truth" in the Bible. Perhaps, a Christian like you interpret this miracle as only occurring in the Bible, not in actual history?

 

[Paroder]

That's not very helpful. Any evidence to support your opinion?

It's not an opinion it is a fact. It says no where that God had sexual relations with Mary... Jesus went in too her womb... No her sin didn't corrupt Him because He is God and God can not be corrupted... He bore the sin of the world and carried it, but He didn't sin.

 

[Publius]

That's not very helpful. Any evidence to support your opinion?

You come to a Christian message board and make outrageous and blasphemous claims about our God and we're the ones who have to show evidence? Where is your evidence?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmmm... I suppose that would support the Immaculate Conception of Mary, right? I mean, Mary must be sinless in order to not contribute any of her sins to Jesus by giving him part of her flesh?

I have a very hard time believing in biblical miracles. For one thing, they sound very fictional or surreal, as if they do not connect at all with reality. Still trying to figure out how a Christian tries to find "truth" in the Bible. Perhaps, a Christian like you interpret this miracle as only occurring in the Bible, not in actual history?

Hi Hestha,

I'm going to try to condense some of this for you.

Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by God through His fiat power, not by a physical insertion. This means that God brought Jesus' body into being by thinking it, through His Spirit--done in much the same way as He did with the Light at the beginning of the Bible. God exerted his will and power and called into being Jesus' body, inhabited by the LOGOS of God (meaning Jesus was also divine).

As far as Mary was concerned, yes she was a holy virgin, but she was not born immaculately. That is a doctrine foisted upon Christianity much, much later in history by the Roman Catholic Church.

I hope this short description helps. I can elaborate if you wish.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Hestha]

He bore the sin of the world and carried it, but He didn't sin.

So, if Jesus bore the sin of the world, and sin brought death, then that meant Jesus died a sinned man and not a sinner, right? He did not commit the sins; other people did. However, since all the sins in the world went into his body, he became sinned and died with those sins and became resurrected from the grave free from all the sins, and the purpose for Christians is to have faith in Jesus Christ, offer Jesus Christ all the sins they have committed and will do in the future, and ascend to heaven in the afterlife... like Jesus did, right?

 

[Faulty]

Jesus is often described as being born from the virgin Mary and adopted by his stepfather Joseph. His real father is said to be God. So, if God fertilizes Mary to produce a baby out of wedlock, does that mean that Jesus is the product of fornication or adultery or illegitimate sexual intercourse? If that is the case, are Christians really worshiping a bastard child? I thought the Virgin Mary was the perpetual virgin, free from original sin, because of her own "Immaculate Conception". How can sexual relations with God be sinless but wanton sexual relations with people outside of marriage be sinful?

Having sexual relations with a god is not a new concept. In Ancient Greek and Roman mythology, Zeus had sexual relations with mortal women, like how he seduces Leda in the form of a swan. Perhaps, the same thing happens in Christianity in which God seduces Mary?

Scripture says nothing about God seducing Mary and says nothing about Mary having sex with God. Why expect a answer defending something that it doesn't say?

It says the Spirit will come and overshadow her, and it's the same Spirit who overshadowed the earth when the waters at creation gave way.

When you speak of Zeus having sex with women, think more of a Genesis 6 situation there, because that's where Zeus originated.

 

[Hestha]

You come to a Christian message board and make outrageous and blasphemous claims about our God and we're the ones who have to show evidence? Where is your evidence?

Sorry for the outrageous and blasphemous claims. I did not mean to cause you upset, though it now sounded like I did, huh? Hmmm... I suppose I should have been more gentle and tried to use less loaded terminology.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hmmm... I suppose that would support the Immaculate Conception of Mary, right? I mean, Mary must be sinless in order to not contribute any of her sins to Jesus by giving him part of her flesh?

That's one theory. Though I find the notion of the Immaculate Conception to be superfluous; that is if God can by an interventionary act preserve Mary from the stain of Original Sin in order that Christ be born free; then it is just as possible for God to make the Incarnation happen without Christ being born sinful.

I have a very hard time believing in biblical miracles. For one thing, they sound very fictional or surreal, as if they do not connect at all with reality. Still trying to figure out how a Christian tries to find "truth" in the Bible. Perhaps, a Christian like you interpret this miracle as only occurring in the Bible, not in actual history?

It probably depends on whether one maintains a bias for or against the supernatural. I do believe that Mary was a virgin, in real history. It's why I refer to her as the Virgin Mother of God, blessed, the full-of-grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hestha]

It probably depends on whether one maintains a bias for or against the supernatural. I do believe that Mary was a virgin, in real history. It's why I refer to her as the Virgin Mother of God, blessed, the full-of-grace.

What do you mean by "bias"? How can one be "biased" when virgin births in mammalian species, specifically bipedal hominid species, have never been observed?

It's funny how supernatural events always seem to occur in the past, but never in the present (i.e. Joan of Arc called by God to fight for the French army) ... or I am too good at finding natural explanations for everything in my life. It seems as if the gods don't really care about humans anymore, and humanity is no longer smiled upon by divine providence.

 

[Paroder]

What do you mean by "bias"? How can one be "biased" when virgin births in mammalian species, specifically bipedal hominid species, have never been observed?

It's funny how supernatural events always seem to occur in the past, but never in the present (i.e. Joan of Arc called by God to fight for the French army) ... or I am too good at finding natural explanations for everything in my life. It seems as if the gods don't really care about humans anymore, and humanity is no longer smiled upon by divine providence.

There is always supernatural events going on.

 

[Danyc]

There is always supernatural events going on.

What events are these that are always going on? I'd love to witness them myself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do you mean by "bias"? How can one be "biased" when virgin births in mammalian species, specifically bipedal hominid species, have never been observed?

Bias, as in taking it as a basic supposition that the supernatural can or can't happen. It's not a negative connotation, just pointing out that it's a form of bias. It's not bad.

It's funny how supernatural events always seem to occur in the past, but never in the present (i.e. Joan of Arc called by God to fight for the French army) ... or I am too good at finding natural explanations for everything in my life. It seems as if the gods don't really care about humans anymore, and humanity is no longer smiled upon by divine providence.

I've never seen the supernatural as terrible normative to begin with. I don't discount that the supernatural happens any less today than in the past; but I don't think it's to be expected.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Vasallus]

Don't feed the.............

 

[Sketcher]

Mary didn't have sexual relations with God (after all, she was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ). God is a creator, he performed the creative work of the Incarnation within her without sexual relations.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hmmm... I suppose that would support the Immaculate Conception of Mary, right? I mean, Mary must be sinless in order to not contribute any of her sins to Jesus by giving him part of her flesh?

Hi Hestha, the "Immaculate Conception" of Mary is a thoroughly Roman Catholic doctrine/dogma, but even they do not believe she had to be free from Original Sin (or be sinless) for her Son to be born that way. They simply believe that it was a gift given to the Virgin Mary by God because of the Baby who would eventually be born to her.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

It was fitting that the mother of Him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin..." (CCC, par. 722).
​

So the Immaculate Conception, even by the ones who created the doctrine and sustain it, believe it to be "fitting and true", but in no way necessary (which is just one of the reasons that the Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, Baptists, Lutherans, etc., all reject it). The only "Immaculate Conception" that we recognize as being actual and true is that of her Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Blessedj01]

Jesus is often described as being born from the virgin Mary and adopted by his stepfather Joseph. His real father is said to be God. So, if God fertilizes Mary to produce a baby out of wedlock, does that mean that Jesus is the product of fornication or adultery or illegitimate sexual intercourse? If that is the case, are Christians really worshiping a bastard child? I thought the Virgin Mary was the perpetual virgin, free from original sin, because of her own "Immaculate Conception". How can sexual relations with God be sinless but wanton sexual relations with people outside of marriage be sinful?

Having sexual relations with a god is not a new concept. In Ancient Greek and Roman mythology, Zeus had sexual relations with mortal women, like how he seduces Leda in the form of a swan. Perhaps, the same thing happens in Christianity in which God seduces Mary?

I'm not sure where you got these ideas from, but I'll give you the skinny. Jesus is God and God created the Universe. God was able to make Mary pregnant without her needing to go through the normal biological route. God simply placed His son within her womb. It was not sex, or fornication of any kind. God created the Universe simply with the power of his own words and creates life simply by using his breath. God is far, far above the rules of biology and science. He makes the rules of all existence.