Barcoding Humans

[Woodsy]

maybe it is a tatoo, or maybe it is the chip. From what we can see from just watching the news the chip technology is going into the direction of fulfilling what the bible says.

Tattoos can be so very easily faked. The chips can be scanned from a distance.

 

[sracer]

...
The Mark or seal of the beast is spiritual; just as the mark or seal of God is spiritual. We cannot see these things, just as we cannot see our creator and the angels but they can see us.
...
there are many examples; keep reading!

You still haven't addressed the question... if the mark or seal of the beast is spiritual, then how do you reconcile the inability to buy and sell goods for those without the mark?

 

[jhessel]

You still haven't addressed the question... if the mark or seal of the beast is spiritual, then how do you reconcile the inability to buy and sell goods for those without the mark?

I personally think that those spreading the theory that the mark is spiritual are "on the payroll" of satan. Believe me there are people right now that get paid to spread lies about the bible/christ and false prophecies (media/book writers etc). I am not saying ck blue is one of them.(im talking about those in the media and i know plenty of them)

 

[parousia70]

You still haven't addressed the question... if the mark or seal of the beast is spiritual, then how do you reconcile the inability to buy and sell goods for those without the mark?

Have you considered the flip side to that coin?

How exactly would the absense of a physical mark prevent me and my neighbor from engaging in a free trade activity between ourselves?

 

[sracer]

Have you considered the flip side to that coin?

How exactly would the absense of a physical mark prevent me and my neighbor from engaging in a free trade activity between ourselves?

Yes I have.

And it wouldn't prevent you from doing that. But that isn't the same thing. You can barter with your neighbor all you want, but you would still have to pay for your utilities like gas, electric, phone, etc. Certain foods, medication, gasoline, etc.

I can't tell from the text of Rev 13:16-17 whether or not this prohibition will simply passed as a law, or that it will be an ironclad restriction.

As an example: Today, we must pay sales tax on every transaction (except for those items that the govt. says are exempt)... do people find ways under certain circumstances to avoid paying sales tax? sure. Can we avoid paying sales tax entirely? Nope.

 

[parousia70]

Yes I have.

And it wouldn't prevent you from doing that. But that isn't the same thing. You can barter with your neighbor all you want, but you would still have to pay for your utilities like gas, electric, phone, etc. Certain foods, medication, gasoline, etc.

But the text is clear. No one would be able to buy or sell without the mark. It does not allow for your interpratation of "no one will be allowed to buy or sell certain things from certain people without the mark.

Seems to me you are applying a decidedly "less than literal" interpratation of this passage, strectching it to fit your notion.

As an example: Today, we must pay sales tax on every transaction (except for those items that the govt. says are exempt)... do people find ways under certain circumstances to avoid paying sales tax? sure. Can we avoid paying sales tax entirely? Nope.

Living in the Great state of Oregon as I do, I do not pay sales tax on anything, and have avoided paying sales tax entirely all my life.
Indeed when I travel out of state, I show my Oregon ID and do not have to pay sales tax there either. Neat isn't it?

 

[JesusServant]

You're grasping at straws Parousia.

 

[sracer]

But the text is clear. No one would be able to buy or sell without the mark. It does not allow for your interpratation of "no one will be allowed to buy or sell certain things from certain people without the mark.

Seems to me you are applying a decidedly "less than literal"

I don't believe so.

Reviewing the original language text of that verse, "buy - ag-or-ad'-zo
From G58; properly to go to market, that is, (by implication) to purchase; specifically to redeem: - buy, redeem."

This means actually going to a market and buying something with currency. Your bartering scenario does not fall into this category.

So I stand by my statement that Rev 13:17 should be taken literally, that no one will be able to engage in commerce without the mark.

...but feel free to disagree. I'm not interested in changing your opinion, but I do want to provide those who are unsure with the other side of the argument.

 

[parousia70]

I don't believe so.

Reviewing the original language text of that verse, "buy - ag-or-ad'-zo
From G58; properly to go to market, that is, (by implication) to purchase; specifically to redeem: - buy, redeem."

This means actually going to a market and buying something with currency. Your bartering scenario does not fall into this category.

But it does.

What is the "market" today?
Would you consider eBay to be the "marketplace" for example?

By your definition, any online shopping is by default excluded from any definition of "marketplace" anyway, (since you claim this passage strictly governs physically travelling to a Store to purchase goods or services) but you will not find one shcolarly opinion among economists today asserting that the terms "eBay" and "marketplace" are mutually exclusive.

If I can trade a guitar for a surf board on eBay (which I have) and have that "deal" fall under the definition of "properly going to market, specifically to redeem" (which it does), then, contrary to your assertion, the same exact "deal" with my next door neighbor falls smack into the middle of that catagory after all dosen't it?

(Especially if I make that "deal" with my next door neighbor on eBay)


So, your dillema remains.
You have yet to show how the absense of a physical mark, on or in my body, would prevent me from engaging is such "marketplace" activity.

So I stand by my statement that Rev 13:17 should be taken literally, that no one will be able to engage in commerce without the mark.

And I restate my contention that you "literalism" crumbles on this one point.
You are no literlaist, especially on this passage.

I'm not interested in changing your opinion, but I do want to provide those who are unsure with the other side of the argument.

And I merely want to point out to those very same good folks that your interpratation of this passage is not a "literal" interpratation at all.

 

[sracer]

But it does.

What is the "market" today?
Would you consider eBay to be the "marketplace" for example?

By your definition, any online shopping is by default excluded from any definition of "marketplace" anyway, (since you claim this passage strictly governs physically travelling to a Store to purchase goods or services) but you will not find one shcolarly opinion among economists today asserting that the terms "eBay" and "marketplace" are mutually exclusive.

If I can trade a guitar for a surf board on eBay (which I have) and have that "deal" fall under the definition of "properly going to market, specifically to redeem" (which it does), then, contrary to your assertion, the same exact "deal" with my next door neighbor falls smack into the middle of that catagory after all dosen't it?

(Especially if I make that "deal" with my next door neighbor on eBay)


So, your dillema remains.
You have yet to show how the absense of a physical mark, on or in my body, would prevent me from engaging is such "marketplace" activity.

Nice try.

Today, on ebay... not just anyone can buy or sell. You need to have a credit card and/or bank account. It isn't much of a stretch for ebay to change their policy to require buyers and sellers to have "the mark". The mark would either be entered manually via keyboard, or automatically entered via biometric scanning devices.

The falacy in your position is that you are using present day examples as they are now to "prove" that the mark must be symbolic. Times change... technology changes... laws change. "Proving" that a physical mark wouldn't prevent people from buying and selling (if indeed your argument is true) only "proves" that NOW is not the time that the prophesy will be fulfilled.
Your arguments don't "prove" that they cannot be true in the future.

And I restate my contention that you "literalism" crumbles on this one point.
You are no literlaist, especially on this passage.

And I merely want to point out to those very same good folks that your interpratation of this passage is not a "literal" interpratation at all.

Just because you claim that I'm not a literalist, does not make it so. I am offering explanations to support my claim that those passages in Revelation are to be taken literally.

 

[parousia70]

Nice try.

Today, on ebay... not just anyone can buy or sell. You need to have a credit card and/or bank account.

So what. The point you missed was that since trading or batering "online" is considered "Properly going to market", then trading or bartering offline cannot be divorced from the definition.
Either way the deal goes down, the deal goes down.

It isn't much of a stretch for ebay to change their policy to require buyers and sellers to have "the mark". The mark would either be entered manually via keyboard, or automatically entered via biometric scanning devices.

and what about that mark would prevent my firend with the mark from ordering something, then trading it to me, as one without the mark??

The falacy in your position is that you are using present day examples as they are now to "prove" that the mark must be symbolic. Times change... technology changes... laws change. "Proving" that a physical mark wouldn't prevent people from buying and selling (if indeed your argument is true) only "proves" that NOW is not the time that the prophesy will be fulfilled.Your arguments don't "prove" that they cannot be true in the future.

So you'd say what, in 100 years, maybe 50?
Clearly it can't be next year then can it?

The majority of human beings on earth trade chickens for fruit in peasant markets across the third world. How long would you guess it would take to barcode them all?
Based on the global scope of such an undertaking, "barcoding" 6 BILLION people if they started today, would certailny take years, probably decades, perhaps even the better part of a century(if it could even be done at all). The effort scale it would take Tracking down all the people being born daily would be enough to tap all the rescources.

Unless I suppose there was some supernatural element involved in the barcode delivery. Do you allow for that in your interpratation?

If not, So much for the "it could happen any minute" theory.

Just because you claim that I'm not a literalist, does not make it so. I am offering explanations to support my claim that those passages in Revelation are to be taken literally.

But you don't take it literally.
You selectively apply metaphore were it suites your intepratation. And you do so without any scriptural warrant for it, as far as I can tell.

 

[sracer]

okay... this will be my last comment on the subject. I've made my position clear...the mark is literal.

You claim that because it isn't possible to stop all trade now at this moment in time, that means that the mark is symbolic. (or in your finite thinking, you cannot conceive of it ever being totally controlled)

I'm saying that it simply means that NOW is not the time that the prophecy will be fullfilled.

You are free to believe in a symbolic mark. Any interested bystander/lurker peeking in on this discussion (who is unsure of the literalness of the mark) has enough info to decide for themselves...or at least enough to pursue the answer on their own.

 

[jhessel]

Have you considered the flip side to that coin?

How exactly would the absense of a physical mark prevent me and my neighbor from engaging in a free trade activity between ourselves?

You are forgetting that satan will rule the world at that point. Those that refuse the mark will probably be executed.

 

[parousia70]

You are forgetting that satan will rule the world at that point. Those that refuse the mark will probably be executed.

Where does the Bible teach that?

 

[parousia70]

okay... this will be my last comment on the subject. I've made my position clear...the mark is literal.

That is indeed your position, and it is quite clear.

You claim that because it isn't possible to stop all trade now at this moment in time, that means that the mark is symbolic. (or in your finite thinking, you cannot conceive of it ever being totally controlled)

Finite thinking?

I'm saying that it simply means that NOW is not the time that the prophecy will be fullfilled.

Fine. So again I'll ask you to venture an educated guess as to how long until technology and sheer manpower reaches the point where physically marking 6 billion people at once would become possible, and how such marking would effectively elimintate the ability to conduct in any sort of free trade whatsoever to anyone without the mark?

1 year?
3.5 years?
7 years?
10?
20?
50?
100?

As far as I can tell, unless there is some sort of supernatural element in your interpratation of the "delievery process" of this physical mark, it (your interp.) effectively eliminates the possibility of the "any moment" doctrine of Christ's return.

You do believe Jesus could return at any moment don't you?
Yet you say "now is not the time"?

How do you reconcile these two seemingly polar opposite views?

You are free to believe in a symbolic mark.

It's the view scripture supports, and since the Bible is the best interprater of the Bible, I'll stick with it.

Completely ignoring the OT precident for the nature of "marking" on the "hand and forehead", and even ignoring the way it is used in Revelation itself for the "mark of God" given to the elect, is unwarranted.

Unless you are going to argue that the "Mark of God" on the "foreheads" of "the elect" in Revelation is physical?

Never heard anyone argue that though, you'd definitely be the first.

 

[Phoenix]

I was looking at a few things today and ran across this:

"And he will cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their forehead; that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of his name." For, being full of guile, and exalting himself against the servants of God, with the wish to afflict them and persecute them out of the world, because they give not glory to him, he will order incense-pans110 to be set up by all everywhere, that no man among the saints may be able to buy or sell without first sacrificing; for this is what is meant by the mark received upon the right hand. And the word-"in their forehead"-indicates that all are crowned, and put on a crown of fire, and not of life, but of death. For in this wise, too, did Antiochus Epiphanes the king of Syria, the descendant of Alexander of Macedon, devise measures against the Jews. He, too, in the exaltation of his heart, issued a decree in those times, that "all should set up shrines before their doors, and sacrifice, and that they should march in procession to the honour of Dionysus, waving chaplets of ivy; "and that those who refused obedience should be put to death by strangulation and torture. But he also met his due recompense at the hand of the Lord, the righteous Judge and all-searching God; for he died eaten up of worms. And if one desires to inquire into that more accurately, he will find it recorded in the books of the Maccabees

From the works of Hippolytus - 170 - 236 ad.

Interesting read found here:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/TOC.htm

Dogmatic and Historical.

 

[water_ripple]

Faith in reality is an invisible thing. You can't prove that you have it. That my friends is between you and God. Faith in God leaves no mark seen by the eyes of man. And satan is jealous for souls. So jealous in fact that he has declared war against God not once but twice. First he claimed 1/3(?) of the angels that were cast down to the earth, and then he says well now I'm going to try and steal human souls as well.


I think that in his jealous a prideful conquest for souls that when the time comes, there is going to be a showdown. One can either accept Christ or receive the mark of the beast. Satan is a ravenous deciver and filled with hate. Satan is not of love, and he will demand that his followers show loyalty. This will be plain, I feel, because the mark is a way to eliminate a person's right to freewill. The sense being that once a person were to recieve the mark (a thing of permanance that cannot be removed) would leave the individual with no other choice.

 

[water_ripple]

One quick message about the ebay deal. My husband has bid on items there and never used a criedit card to seal a deal. He negotiated through people selling items that wouldn't sell and used a good old fashioned money order to make payment directly to the seller. Good thing the seller was honest. Even though snail mail took quite a bit longer.

Disclaimer: if ebay were to ever start requiring a "chip" scan (or any other business for that matter) I would have to say how 'bout no deal ever.

 

[jhessel]

One can either accept Christ or receive the mark of the beast. Satan is a ravenous deciver and filled with hate. Satan is not of love, and he will demand that his followers show loyalty. This will be plain, I feel, because the mark is a way to eliminate a person's right to freewill. The sense being that once a person were to recieve the mark (a thing of permanance that cannot be removed) would leave the individual with no other choice.

It could be the holocaust for those that refuse the mark.

 

[signwonder]

What Barcoding Humans with the Mark of the Beast means:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grevios sore upon the men which had the mark fo the beast, and upon them that worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burining with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon thier forheads, or in theri hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously only those that do not receive the mark will get to live with Christ because they were not deceived. God's word makes this very clear. When man chooses man's ways in opposition to God's ways shown here so clearly in the Revelation this will be a final dividing line of who will stand with and for God and who is against Him.