Barack Obama, health care, and "change"

[Tenebrae]

uhhhhh hint I live in America I have a variety of medical issues. All together they make me disabled. and I'm not homeless. Now if Obama has his way he would view me and my cecilman as a burden on the government and who knows what would happen then one can only imagine. Yes I've read his health care reform bill. Yes there is a reason to be concerned about it. Many reasons.

Can you drop the sarcasm? Its not conducive to good discussion

I wasnt refering to you, dont know you from eve, I was refering to clients that I've worked with, who I have extensive knowledge of their lives. Who would if they lived in America either be comitted to a state hospital for life, or be homeless. Interestingly enough under universal healthcare, because they were able to get access to the latest medications have been able to get their illness under control, and some are working part time with a view to transitioning back into full time work.

Something that would never have happened if they lived in America

 

[Tenebrae]

Well, the Bible itself says that if a man does not work, he should not eat.

So, no, food really isn't a right.

Guess what? Neither is healthcare or any of these other human privileges.

.

Taking one line of the bible does not prove your point. David Koresh used Solomons example of having many wives to justify his polgamy and we all know what a wack job he turned out to be

The bible also says something about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc and how if you do it to the least of His people you do it to him. And if you dont do it for the least you have not done it for him

 

[rahmiyn]

Conservatives believe that government should not be running things that the private sector can and should themselves. Conservatives do not believe there should be zero regulation, just less than what liberals want.

Well, I would think conservatives would embrace supporting more "binding arbitration" agreements between doctors and patients. It is a step in the right direction in controlling tort litigation without government involvement or control.

I have not heard anything about what you are talking about, is there a link you can give me so that I may check it out myself?

I heard it in one of his early speeches on healthcare. Here, a summary of his proposed plan shows he is interested in addressing the lawsuits that are artificially inflating healthcare costs.

You would have to provide some pretty credible sources that prove the contrary for me to believe Obama is not very much for tort reform. He just doesn't seem to want to spend tax-payers money to simply regulate such from Congress, and as I said, Republicans seem to be on the same page with regards to lessening government when a more effective control can be realized in the private sector.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Conservatism is supposed to be about only spending what you have, and if you have to borrow you pay it back. It's about less governmant, not no government. It's about personal freedoms, not oppression. It's about rewarding individuals for success, not penalizing them for it.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well, I would think conservatives would embrace supporting more "binding arbitration" agreements between doctors and patients. It is a step in the right direction in controlling tort litigation without government involvement or control.

Well, I agree with you, again, is there somewhere I can go read up on this?

I heard it in one of his early speeches on healthcare. Here, a summary of his proposed plan shows he is interested in addressing the lawsuits that are artificially inflating healthcare costs.

OK, thank you, I'll check it out.

You would have to provide some pretty credible sources that prove the contrary for me to believe Obama is not very much for tort reform. He just doesn't seem to want to spend tax-payers money to simply regulate such from Congress, and as I said, Republicans seem to be on the same page with regards to lessening government when a more effective control can be realized in the private sector.

I think that now that Obama realizes that his bill was not going to pass because even democrates were not going to vote for it, he has now made it clear that there are things he will consider. To his credit he is now willing to listen and consider what people have been saying on the other side.

 

[rahmiyn]

I think that now that Obama realizes that his bill was not going to pass because even democrates were not going to vote for it, he has now made it clear that there are things he will consider. To his credit he is now willing to listen and consider what people have been saying on the other side.

I hope so. Really, everyone I've listened to agrees his proposed bill is not optimum, but that any change is preferable to the status quo, which is crumbling like a house of cards (like the economy did.)

i just hope everyone seeks some middle ground that works best for most, but doesn't at the same time completely cripple the system.

I do believe most on both sides want this. They just disagree on just how to achieve it.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I hope so. Really, everyone I've listened to agrees his proposed bill is not optimum, but that any change is preferable to the status quo, which is crumbling like a house of cards (like the economy did.)

i just hope everyone seeks some middle ground that works best for most, but doesn't at the same time completely cripple the system.

I do believe most on both sides want this. They just disagree on just how to achieve it.

With that I agree with you again. There needs to be alot of changes to our system, we can't do nothing.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Obama's health care bill states.

Page 170

Non Resident Aliens-Subsection A shall not apply to any individual is a non resident alien.

This shows that the Americans will the aliens taxes. It is the only thing I find bout aliens

Ok, thanks Renee

I found this article and it answers my question on this, you should read this also. Yes there was a loophole, but now that Rep. Wilson brought it to light the Senate is working on getting rid of it.

Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill - Political News - FOXNews.com


Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., was criticized for interrupting Obama's address to a joint session of Congress to accuse the president of lying about his health care reform plan prohibiting coverage for illegal immigrants. Wilson quickly apologized, and the White House accepted the apology.

Wilson apologized again Thursday morning, though he also says a massive loophole could wind up in the health care bill: no requirement to prove citizenship for health care coverage.

Among three House committees to pass bills for health reform, only one expressly bans federal funding for proving health coverage to illegal immigrants.

"The Congressional Research Service has indicated that indeed the bills that are before Congress would include illegal aliens," Wilson said. "And I think this is wrong."

Indeed, the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service study found that the House health care bill does not restrict illegal immigrants from receiving health care coverage.

House Republican Minority Leader John Boehner amplified the complaint that without proof of citizenship, illegal immigrants could be insured.

"There were two opportunities for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenships," he said. "Both of those amendments were, in fact, rejected."

In the Senate, Democrats in the so called "Gang of Six," a group of bipartisan senators on the Senate Finance Committee which is the last panel yet to release its bill, began moving quickly to close the loophole that Wilson helped bring greater attention to.



This is why we need to take out time, especially congress, actually read all the bills on the table and come up with the best plan. If Obama and the liberal dems had their way, they would've voted on and passed the bill weeks ago. That is wrong.

We shouldn't do a whole over-hall of the system and create a huge bureaucracy after only debating it for a few weeks!

 

[rahmiyn]

I found this article in a local Tampa paper that addresses the issue of illegal aliens being "covered."

Q. Will a health-care bill now before the House of Representatives give illegal aliens benefits?

A. The House bill would set up a health insurance "exchange," in which consumers could compare policies and choose a plan. It would create a government-run health plan to compete with private insurers in that exchange, and extend subsidies for coverage to people who aren't already covered by employers or federal programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

It specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving those subsidies. Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States," CNN reports.

It may require them to buy their own coverage, though, the Congressional Research Service says in a report, CNN adds.

According to the CRS, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants.

"Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens … would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance," the new report states.

Critics say there is no way to enforce the ban on subsidies for undocumented workers, since the Democratic majority in the House turned back a Republican effort to explicitly stiffen citizenship checks. But Medicare and Medicaid already require those enrolled to provide "a substantial number of documents" to show they're U.S. citizens or legal residents, said Henrie Treadwell, a professor of community and preventive medicine at Atlanta's Morehouse University medical school. source

 

[xxkingskidlmxx]

you and john joined the same day but seem to know more whats going on than anyone else. thankx for filling us in.

 

[Alpine]

Conservatism is supposed to be about only spending what you have, and if you have to borrow you pay it back. It's about less governmant, not no government. It's about personal freedoms, not oppression. It's about rewarding individuals for success, not penalizing them for it.

That sounds good but how many conservatives have actually done that? Reagan who I loved broke deficit records.

 

[Cassidy]

There are probably a lot of young women in the church who would do nanny-type work for free [or for next-to-nothing] until they get old enough to where they can do it for a wage. Maybe you can put up a note at church or at the grocery store or something.

Stephen

LOL I was kidding

I was also demonstrating how lucky you really are that your country doesn't have access to free health care and you're complaining that that could change...yet other countries are quite capable of providing free healthcare, education and France even has free University AND Nanny for new mothers for as long as they need it. And who pays for it? That's right, the tax payers!!! And you wish to begrudge poor people of medical treatment??? I don't get that!

 

[Cassidy]

Did someone say I'm getting healthcare?

And I don't even have to be a US resident?

Wow, Obama's the best. I'm going to vote for him again in 2012!!!

What's with the selfishness?? You know other countries are doing what you're jumping up and down about just fine! My sister is living in Scotland on a work visa and got free healthcare when she had problems with her pregnancy....should she have just sucked it up and just bled to death in her bed then?

Seriously your country needs to really look at it's healthcare system...when people who volunteered at 9/11 can't even get treatment for conditions they got from volunteering at 9/11 but terrorists who are detained at Guantanamo Bay (sp?) get free health care at a drop of a hat...there's a problem mate! It's wrong!

 

[Cassidy]

Can you drop the sarcasm? Its not conducive to good discussion

I wasnt refering to you, dont know you from eve, I was refering to clients that I've worked with, who I have extensive knowledge of their lives. Who would if they lived in America either be comitted to a state hospital for life, or be homeless. Interestingly enough under universal healthcare, because they were able to get access to the latest medications have been able to get their illness under control, and some are working part time with a view to transitioning back into full time work.

Something that would never have happened if they lived in America

 

[Trish1947]

This all sounds well and good about not covering illegal aliens. Just because it mentions it in the bill not to insure them, this has already been resolved in our courts twice in the past, how the hospitals and drs. get paid. They just bill Medicare. They found it unconstitutional not to provide them care, so when they go to an emergency room to receive care, it's Medicare that gets billed. So there is no guarantee just because it's been written in the bill not to insure illegals, that the same courts rulings won't apply as in the past. It's just one of those things that's been added to the bill that has no weight what-so-ever, when it comes to already been heard by the court. I can't see the court changing it's mind, when it comes to hospitals and drs. getting paid if illegals have no insurance. So it seems to be a moot point, even when it's in the bill. I wonder how many who put that in the bill, already knew the courts decision about it in the past, and they think we didn't know?
So if we're not going to insure them with some guarantee of medical service by a doctor, how is that going to prevent them from still using and over crowding our emergency rooms for every little ailment to obtain care?

 

[psalms 91]

What's with the selfishness?? You know other countries are doing what you're jumping up and down about just fine! My sister is living in Scotland on a work visa and got free healthcare when she had problems with her pregnancy....should she have just sucked it up and just bled to death in her bed then?

Seriously your country needs to really look at it's healthcare system...when people who volunteered at 9/11 can't even get treatment for conditions they got from volunteering at 9/11 but terrorists who are detained at Guantanamo Bay (sp?) get free health care at a drop of a hat...there's a problem mate! It's wrong!

If it is so good then why do people living under that at times come to the USA so they can recieve timely care?

 

[nephilimiyr]

That sounds good but how many conservatives have actually done that? Reagan who I loved broke deficit records.

EEK!, so now I have to go back over 20 years to argue what actually happend? With a professed conservative no less? Honestly Alpine, I find it hard to believe you are a conservative. To blame Reagan on the deficits that happend is just not understanding what happend during the 80's.

McCain got it right! If you are going to cut taxes it also has to be followed up with spending cuts. The dems, who were the over-whelming majority in congress in the 80's would not listen and spent like drunken sailors as soon as they saw all the money coming in from the result of the Reagan tax cuts! It was pork heaven.

How on earth do you claim to be a conservative and not understand that? That is the central tenant of conservatism!

You have lost all credibility with me on this.

 

[nephilimiyr]

This what I keep pointing out to people. Why is it conservatives in other countries don't have a problem with it?

LOL, Where in the world did you get that from?

Please go to the video's on linked in post 29, or watch this one.
YouTube - British MEP Daniel Hannan on the NHS, Enoch Powell, and His Libertarian Plan for Britain

There are plenty of conservatives in other countries who have a problem with it, and they are warning America to not follow down the same road. Even Putin, the leader in Russia, warned America for what we are doing!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Is this where such a thread ought to be?

Not really, if it was up to me I would've moved this to the proper forum right away.

 

[Alpine]

EEK!, so now I have to go back over 20 years to argue what actually happend? With a professed conservative no less? Honestly Alpine, I find it hard to believe you are a conservative. To blame Reagan on the deficits that happend is just not understanding what happend during the 80's.

McCain got it right! If you are going to cut taxes it also has to be followed up with spending cuts. The dems, who were the over-whelming majority in congress in the 80's would not listen and spent like drunken sailors as soon as they saw all the money coming in from the result of the Reagan tax cuts! It was pork heaven.

How on earth do you claim to be a conservative and not understand that? That is the central tenant of conservatism!

You have lost all credibility with me on this.

I understand it perfectly. However I am questioning just how effective conservative ideas are these days. I think a middle of the road approach is much more realistic. We've lost almost every battle we've fought the last 50 years.