Baptists and the Virign Mary.

[Avid]

... her death was not the penalty for her sin it was the natural outcome of sin in physical reality. Christ bore the penalty for her sin...

A result and a penalty may be the same, and certainly could be NOT the same.

It is important to note that we all die because of what Adam did. There was no remedy for that till Jesus presented His blood to God in Heaven, Three Days and Three Nights after His crucifixion. Until AFTER Mary spoke to "the Gardner," all people died, and went to the heart of the Earth, as a RESULT of the fall of man. Nothing else was going to happen till Jesus Christ made a way for those who are His to enter the presence of God the Father in His abode, the Third Heaven. That is God's abode, it is not made for mortal flesh and blood.

The result is not the penalty in this case. The penalty was for all of us to EVER be separated from the abode of God. Some in Paradise, and some in torment. Jesus was there, being a human in flesh and blood. He needed to make a way for humans to be elsewhere, or He would stay there as well. That is why NONE of what we read in the gospels was done by accident. It was Jesus' purpose, His reason for being born and living here. He reconciled us to God the Father. He paid what we could not pay.

 

[Avid]

... The penalty is Hell. Mary was saved from Hell but she died because she was a sinner the same as you and me. Jesus paid for Mary's sins to save her from paying in Hell fire forever because He as God was the only one who could pay for somebody else's sin by His death because He had no sin of HIs own...

I tried to explain this, but I may need to say more. The RESULT, as I stated, and the Penalty have a definite crossover. The result is that all people leave this life the same way. Being in Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was not the penalty, but was the result, and everyone there (since the death of righteous Abel) were without remedy. It is still separation from God the Father which is a penalty as well.

Romans 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. ​

Just because they were not in torment does not mean that everything was fine. Jesus had His purpose to make a way for these righteous dead to be ushered into the presence of God Almighty. This work of our LORD had affects on all who died thence. Any righteous (saved) people are ushered into the presence of the Father in Heaven (God's abode.) There is some sort of spiritual body given to them, but all things are not completed. There is a coming time (called the First Resurrection,) where these people will be reunited with their human body, but it will be changed into a glorified body, like as Christ. The promise from that point forward is that we will ever be with Him.

There are many other things we could discuss about that, but we would be getting further afield. Confusion arises when some read John 3:16, and imagine that means God now excuses sin. The gruesome payment made by the Son of God was not so people could continue in sin. It did, however, address a scripture passage you mentioned. (Rom.5:14)

 

[Avid]

... It morphed into worship and relies on her position of being the mother of God. Just writing that makes me shiver because it is blasphemous...

That term is not even in scripture, and it bothers me as well. I have dealt with many who hear names given to false gods, and they try to apply them to our one true God. (Mostly done in ignorance, but they should realize this after being told!) This is an example of people taking a pagan term, and applying it where it does not belong.

Another such term is "the queen of heaven." It only appears in scripture where it relates to a false god. For anyone to apply that to our one true God, or anything pertaining to Him, is of the same blasphemous category of sin. Throughout the last 2,000 years, there have been good and righteous people persecuted and martyred because of their stand on these truths. (other iterations in Old Testament times produced similar martyrdom.) It is not to be taken lightly.

 

[Pedrito]

In Reply #22, Avid made reference to Abraham's Bosom as being paradise, but a separation from God the Father. The situation was both a penalty and not a penalty.

When Jesus told that story (parable?) he was talking to Pharisees, those self-righteous Jews who had been deriding him. (Luke 16:14-31)

May I float the thought that the true meaning of Jesus' story might be gleaned by simply investigating the question “did the mention of five brothers have any significance for the Pharisees to whom Jesus was directing that story?”.

 

[branchofthevine]

How would you guys react to someone who claimed to have a vision of Mary? I know that among some of the great Catholic people, they've had visions of her, like Mother Theresa and Padre Pio as examples.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

In Reply #22, Avid made reference to Abraham's Bosom as being paradise, but a separation from God the Father. The situation was both a penalty and not a penalty.

When Jesus told that story (parable?) he was talking to Pharisees, those self-righteous Jews who had been deriding him. (Luke 16:14-31)

May I float the thought that the true meaning of Jesus' story might be gleaned by simply investigating the question “did the mention of five brothers have any significance for the Pharisees to whom Jesus was directing that story?”.

What does this have to do with the ISIS-like animosity of Baptists toward the Mary idol as questioned in the OP?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

How would you guys react to someone who claimed to have a vision of Mary? I know that among some of the great Catholic people, they've had visions of her, like Mother Theresa and Padre Pio as examples.

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

 

[twin1954]

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. Correct answer.

 

[Pedrito]

In Reply #26, SaintJoeNow asked a highly pertinent question about my thought (Reply #24) that Avid's interpretation regarding Abraham's bosom (Reply #22) might be questionable:

What does this have to do with the ISIS-like animosity of Baptists toward the Mary idol as questioned in the OP?

The answer (hopefully pertinent as well) is that misapplication of God's Holy Word dishonours God.

I suggest it is the duty of every true Christian to be on the lookout for that, and to highlight every occurrence where they think they detect it, so that it can be investigated, and corrected if necessary.

I further suggest that the possibility of disrespecting God might outweigh the importance of the original subject of any thread in which a possible breach is detected.

In summary, SaintJoeNow's question regarding my thoughts was indeed relevant. So, I suggest, was my reason for presenting them.



As for the animosity mentioned above, 1 John 5:21 is probably sufficient: “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”

I remember seeing in an official Catholic publication during the Pol Pot era, an account of how a group of Catholics had carried a statue (image) of Mary to the Cambodian border, and faced it into Cambodia. A fair paraphrase of what was written next is: “Mary looked across the border into Cambodia with sadness in her heart”.

I submit that that is a clear example of idolatry.

Idolatry defames God. Should we not indeed show animosity towards everything that does?

I suspect that asking dead people (including Mary) to speak to God on our behalf because their approaches are more acceptable than ours, is also defamatory.

Therefore, the (not confined to) Baptist animosity in this regard, may well be justified. (Does not God display an abhorrence of idolatry in the Bible?)

 

[SaintJoeNow]

In Reply #26, SaintJoeNow asked a highly pertinent question about my thought (Reply #24) that Avid's interpretation regarding Abraham's bosom (Reply #22) might be questionable:



The answer (hopefully pertinent as well) is that misapplication of God's Holy Word dishonours God.


I suggest it is the duty of every true Christian to be on the lookout for that, and to highlight every occurrence where they think they detect it, so that it can be investigated, and corrected if necessary.

I further suggest that the possibility of disrespecting God might outweigh the importance of the original subject of any thread in which a possible breach is detected.

In summary, SaintJoeNow's question regarding my thoughts was indeed relevant. So, I suggest, was my reason for presenting them.



As for the animosity mentioned above, 1 John 5:21 is probably sufficient: “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”

I remember seeing in an official Catholic publication during the Pol Pot era, an account of how a group of Catholics had carried a statue (image) of Mary to the Cambodian border, and faced it into Cambodia. A fair paraphrase of what was written next is: “Mary looked across the border into Cambodia with sadness in her heart”.

I submit that that is a clear example of idolatry.

Idolatry defames God. Should we not indeed show animosity towards everything that does?

I suspect that asking dead people (including Mary) to speak to God on our behalf because their approaches are more acceptable than ours, is also defamatory.

Therefore, the (not confined to) Baptist animosity in this regard, may well be justified. (Does not God display an abhorrence of idolatry in the Bible?)

Thank you....yes God hates idols including the Catholic idol which they call "Mary", or " Queen of Heaven" or "Mother of God" or whatever other names they call it.. I guess they give it a name for pretty much every country and Island on the planet as well as for some sporting events.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I understand the Baptist understanding and belief about the Virgin Mary. But what I don't understand is some of the hostility toward the Virgin Mary from some baptists and other Evangelical protestant christians.

Does the Baptist theology justify the hostility and sometimes the phobia that is among some Baptists toward the Virgin Mary ?

No, Baptist theology does not justify the hostility and sometimes the phobia that is among some Baptists toward the Virgin Mary. However, it should be said here that these unreasonable negative attitudes among Baptists are limited, for the most part, to independent Baptist churches pastored by men who lack the education required of pastors by most denominational Baptist churches.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It is naive of anyone to think that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary.

Indeed it is. The Latin word for the veneration of Christian art is ‘dulia.’ The Latin word for the veneration of the mother of Jesus is ‘hyperdulia.’ The Latin word for the worship of God Himself is ‘latria,’ a word NEVER used by Catholics for the veneration of images or even the mother of Jesus.

Even though I'm not Catholic, I do pray to the Virgin Mary but not in the way I pray to God.

I do not pray to the Virgin Mary because I do not feel a need to. However, I know Roman Catholics who do pray to the Virgin Mary and find much comfort in doing so. I see nothing at all wrong with the practice. I do, however, see very much wrong with the very frequent Baptist practice of carelessly praying, addressing God in the same prayer as “Our heavenly Father,” “dear Lord,” “Jesus,” and “God;” and mindlessly closing the prayer with, “in Jesus name, amen,” being absolutely clueless about what it means to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.

 

[4x4toy]

I understand the Baptist understanding and belief about the Virgin Mary. But what I don't understand is some of the hostility toward the Virgin Mary from some baptists and other Evangelical protestant christians.

Does the Baptist theology justify the hostility and sometimes the phobia that is among some Baptists toward the Virgin Mary ?

Baptists and other protestants are actually defending Mary .. Mary had to work out her salvation with fear and trembling according to scripture the same way all born again Christians must .. She's resting in peace along with millions of others waiting for God to finish putting all things in order .. How about repenting of your sins and believing the Son of God unto salvation instead of running around trying to get a saint or Mary to put a good word in for you .. Mary told the servants at the wedding , "do whatever He tells you" greatest and most complete advice ever given ...

 

[Alithis]

It is naive of anyone to think that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary. Even though I'm not Catholic, I do pray to the Virgin Mary but not in the way I pray to God. I pray the rosary and I honor her because Christ's body is from her body.

When I say some Baptists are hostile toward the Virgin Mary I mean that they avoid any mention of her during sermon or even any celebration of her. Destroying any statue of hers, just like what ISIS are doing. That what I mean by hostility toward the Virgin Mary. I never said that not praying to the Virgin Mary is hostility, in the end God is above all and first of all. Not praying to the Virgin Mary doesn't make you any less Christian. I feel hostility in your comment which you somehow are accusing me of worshiping the Virgin Mary.

Thank you answering anyway.

its odd and i know its a play on English language only - but is it not ironic (sort of ) that the group now called I.s.i.s and kills any who wont submit ..spells the same name of the false goddess isis who is also linked to being the "mother of the sun god" and the queen of heaven .

but any way - i agree that no one is hostile to our sister in the lord "Mary", who has since passed away to be with the lord Jesus rather a long time ago and cannot hear any prayers because she is not omnipresent now all knowing .

i attend a baptist/Pentecostal congregation (ie baptists who have experienced the Baptism of the holy ghost ans speak in tongues etc) and am not hostile to Mary at all .but im openly hostile ..or that is to say openly opposing false teachings which elevate the created Mary above her natural station of "mere mortal"
the bible tells us she as blessed because she was chosen , not because of any other attribute .
and she was chosen for the singular reason that she was betrothed to Joseph " whoever happened to be betrothed to Joseph would have been chosen due to that simple fact ..because the lord had to be born out from the tribe of Judah and the line of David ..
so ANY maiden of the right blood line who happened to be betrothed to Joseph -would have been chosen .whether her name me mary ,jane, ruth or sue .
and we recall that she was blessed to be that one .. other then then that there is no reason to preach or teach of her because the LORD JESUS is the entire point -he is the way the truth the life and there is absolutely no way to the father but by HIM

so i openly oppose any false teachings that suggests one can access the father by any other means because to teach that, one must oppose what the lord Jesus has said and so imply he is a liar ... harsh but true .

 

[Alithis]

It is naive of anyone to think that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary.

that depends what you define worship to be .
to consider a thing of high "worth " of high import .. to ascribe unto a thing or person an elevated level of importance and value ..is "worshiping " them .

folks do it with movies stars , sports stars ,sports teams ,public figures , royalty .
honoring an office and giving overt importance and elevated value are quite different .

idolizing and idolatry is done on so many levels be it shiney cars ,bling or statues of that which is created (like mary) .
in every culture and religion in the world .. bowing the head -praying - burning incense -bowing down -offering chants -making images and elevating them (poster & pictures on bedroom walls to gaze upon them) -is all openly considered to be "acts of worship .

it is only in Christianity that these acts are denied as acts of worship .. and excuse is made .
that is sad that, in this respect ..all the other religions are more truthful about what they are doing and do not pretend(walk in hypocrisy) that it is "something else " .when it is in truth .. 'worship"

 

[Avid]

... is it not ironic (sort of ) that the group now called I.s.i.s and kills any who wont submit ..spells the same name of the false goddess isis who is also linked to being the "mother of the sun god" and the queen of heaven...

I had taken notice of this, and was convinced it is no coincidence. There are others things like this, but take note of what the Islamic State (another name of the same thing) is doing. It is similar to the way Christians were treated for other such infractions over the last 1500 years. The penalty is death. Islam may arrest you, and imprison you before they execute you, or they may massacre you with many others who share your beliefs. Slighting these goddesses and gods received similar punishment in ancient times.

 

[hedrick]

What Roman Catholics say they believe and what is actually practiced are two different things. They build their argument around the use of one word but in reality they do worship her as co-redemptrix with the Lord Jesus Christ. The practice of praying to Mary, as well as other saints, started out as a way to get out of purgatory. Which of course is unbiblical. It morphed into worship and relies on her position of being the mother of God. Just writing that makes me shiver because it is blasphemous.

Though the selling of indulgences is not usually practiced any more you can still buy the merit of Mary or the Saints to get someone out of purgatory. It is now done by the priest coercing a dying congregant to will all their estate to the church.

Now we recognize that in the scheme of God throughout history she is blessed above all women for her being used of God to bring the Lord Jesus into the world as Savior. What we do not do is elevate her above what she was and we do not venerate her above what she deserves.

This posting has a number of serious errors about Catholic belief. Note that Catholics are not permitted to post here. Hence I strongly recommend that people refrain from postings attacking Catholic belief. This is not just a presentation of Baptist beliefs, but (incorrect) speculation on why Catholics do certain things.

 

[Avid]

I understand the Baptist understanding and belief about the Virgin Mary. But what I don't understand is some of the hostility toward the Virgin Mary from some baptists and other Evangelical protestant christians.

Does the Baptist theology justify the hostility and sometimes the phobia that is among some Baptists toward the Virgin Mary ?

Again, there is not hostility toward Mary, the mother of Jesus, in Baptist theology, nor is there any among Baptists. The Baptists love Mary (any of them that received Christ as their LORD,) the Apostles, Peter, James (both) John and the rest. There are Christians here that I (as a Baptist) love, though we have never met. The premise of these questions in the OP is based in error.

Hostility from Baptists, if it exists in any sense, is toward false theology and false gods. The premise of considering Baptists as protestants is in error. There is no phobia associated with Mary, the mother of Jesus, nor do we fear other dead saints of God. The Christian saints who have gone before (whether John Bunyan, Jonathan Edwards or Rolfe Barnard) do not instill fear, but only an encouragement that we may endure, as well, to the pleasing of our LORD.

 

[Goodbook]

As far as I know, there is no hostility toward Jesus mother, she is mentioned in sermons, but not all the time!

At christmas time she is featured heavily in our worship specially christmas carols. We love mary, but we just dont have shrines to her thats all. Nothing to worry about. Mary does not require it. She would be the first to say do whatever He says. (And she did, in the bible)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Indeed it is. The Latin word for the veneration of Christian art is ‘dulia.’ The Latin word for the veneration of the mother of Jesus is ‘hyperdulia.’ The Latin word for the worship of God Himself is ‘latria,’ a word NEVER used by Catholics for the veneration of images or even the mother of Jesus.

that depends what you define worship to be .

to consider a thing of high "worth " of high import .. to ascribe unto a thing or person an elevated level of importance and value ..is "worshiping " them .


folks do it with movies stars , sports stars ,sports teams ,public figures , royalty .

honoring an office and giving overt importance and elevated value are quite different .


idolizing and idolatry is done on so many levels be it shiney cars ,bling or statues of that which is created (like mary) .

in every culture and religion in the world .. bowing the head -praying - burning incense -bowing down -offering chants -making images and elevating them (poster & pictures on bedroom walls to gaze upon them) -is all openly considered to be "acts of worship.


it isonly in Christianitythat these acts aredeniedasacts of worship .. and excuse is made .

that is sad that, in this respect ..all the other religions are more truthful about what they are doing and do not pretend(walk in hypocrisy) that it is "something else " .when it is in truth .. 'worship"

When Roman Catholics speak or write about venerating objects of art or the Virgin Mary, they are very careful to avoid even the slightest suggestion that Catholics worship objects of art or the Virgin Mary. Perhaps we Baptists should be at least as careful as our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.