Baptist view of Constantine

[SaintJoeNow]

The trend is toward Ecumenicalism, with "Spirit-filled" Catholics blurring the lines between protestants and Catholics. Many Evangelical leaders such as Billy Graham and Jack Van Impe have compromised the Bible teaching against Catholicism in order to widen their base of support.

Secular colleges teach Constantine as the central Christian church, completely wiping from history any Bible believers who never submitted to Government guided or sponsored religion. Protestants are painted as the rebels against the faith rather than defenders of Biblical faith.

then a Catholic comes into the Baptist forum and says the Baptists should forget the past and embrace their Catholic brothers......like Jack Van Impe has said..........and the Baptists can be accused of flaming and goading after introducing Catholic teaching in the Baptist forum, then we can get the Baptists banned form the site

 

[FreeinChrist]

In General I have a hard time with the fundamental beliefs of Roman Catholics.

All of their ceremony is completely outside of God's Word.

They Pray to Angels.

They Pray to Mary.

They believe a Priest can forgive sin.

They believe the Preist becomes Christ during the Eucharist,as well the wafers are the physical body of Christ.

They Pray and bow to statues .

They Forbid marriage


There are so many things UN Bibical it is dangerous.

The topic is Constantine and not the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The struggles between the Holy Roman Emperors and the Pope for political power are quite famous. So it wasn't some massive politocal conspuracy from time immemorial. When it comes down to it, most secular rulers did what they wanted and only paid enough lip service to the Papacy to keep the Pope off their back. Having said that, what the Pope wanted and what the rulers wanted were often the same thing. So just because a King enforces Catholicism as state religion, doesn't necessarily mean he's doing it because the Popes told him to.

Basically, look at how many Catholic politicians support gay marriage and abortion when the Church is strongly against both. They clearly aren't getting their marching orders from the Vatican. And neither are the 60% of the laity who support gay marriage, or the 90% who have used contraception, which is against Church teaching.



This Catholic teaching and Catholic Church support is not a forum violation?
Baptists to do not believe in any Holy Roman Emperor and do not obey or uphold any Potentate (Pope) other than Jesus Christ.

The topic is Constantine. Christianity was made legal under Constantine but was not the state religion. That came later.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Reading these comments, it's hard for me to comprehend the intensity of the level of dislike toward the Catholic Church over historical events from hundreds of years ago. To boot, the SBC has been the largest Protestant denomination in the US for a while and Protestants have always outnumbered Catholics by a wide margin. If anything, it seems it would be Catholics who would be angry, if anyone is, because discrimination has affected them more recently (i.e. the 1857 anti-Catholic riots in Louisville, KY, anti-Catholic sentiment against Al Smith and JFK running for President). The Reformation up through the English Civil War happened, at the least, over 300 years ago. Are most Baptist still this angry over events occurring hundred of years ago?


The struggles between the Holy Roman Emperors and the Pope for political power are quite famous. So it wasn't some massive politocal conspuracy from time immemorial. When it comes down to it, most secular rulers did what they wanted and only paid enough lip service to the Papacy to keep the Pope off their back. Having said that, what the Pope wanted and what the rulers wanted were often the same thing. So just because a King enforces Catholicism as state religion, doesn't necessarily mean he's doing it because the Popes told him to.

Basically, look at how many Catholic politicians support gay marriage and abortion when the Church is strongly against both. They clearly aren't getting their marching orders from the Vatican. And neither are the 60% of the laity who support gay marriage, or the 90% who have used contraception, which is against Church teaching.



This is Catholic teaching and Catholic Church supporting teachings. This is not a thread of Catholics asking questions, this is Catholics trying to teach in the Baptist forum.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Staff advice - If you have a complaint about a post, report it and do not respond.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Constantine started the spread of Catholicism so eventually it made its way into the Baptist forum where the Baptists could be accused of flaming and goading and thereby silenced after Catholic rule of force failed to contain Christianity as a political tool to keep the Roman Empire from crumbling.

 

[St Antony]

JFK was required on a number of occasions to answer the same question. I can remember some of this.

At confirmation, JFK was required to swear allegiance to the pope and the Roman Catholic institution above all other allegiances. This needed to be reconciled with the oath of office he would take if elected pres. These two diametrically opposite things were the concern, and the prohibition against Roman Catholics holding public office was keenly understood for this reason.

Have you, as a Catholic, sworn allegiance to the pope in this manner? What scripture of the Bible requires this?

This is absolutely not correct and I assume this goes for when JFK was confirmed too. This is to the RCC liturgy for confirmation with all of the questions and answers on No. 23. Judge for yourself. (I can't post links yet so here is the full text:

Bishop: Do you reject satan and all his works and all his empty promises?
Candidates: I do.
Bishop: Do you believe in God the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth?
Candidates: I do.
Bishop: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary,
was crucified, died, and was buried,
rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Candidates: I do.
Bishop: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who came upon the apostles at Pentecost
and today is given to you sacramentally in confirmation?
Candidates: I do.
Bishop: Do you believe in the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
Candidates: I do.
Bishop: This is our faith. This is the faith of the Church. We are proud to profess it in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
All:

 

[St Antony]

The question about loyalty to the US Constitution in the 1928 presidential campaign of Alfred E. Smith, the Democratic governor of New York, brought the following comments from lawyer, Charles Marshall, in an article in the Atlantic Monthly, April 1927. The whole article is quite long. Here is a link and an excerpt:

[A Contemporary View of the 1928 Election

The Catholic Encyclopedia clearly so declares: “In case of direct contradiction, making it impossible for both jurisdictions to be exercised, the jurisdiction of the Church prevails and that of the State is excluded.” And Pope Pius IX in the Syllabus asserted: “To say in the case of conflicting laws enacted by the Two Powers, the civil law prevails, is error.”
​

(emphasis, mine...)

We can see it was not ignorance and bias , but a serious concern for stated reasons that brought opposition to Smith, and later, to JFK in their presidential aspirations.

So if the civil power takes action repugnant to our conscience and beliefs, and against our faith, we are required just to take it and support? What about gay marriage today? If the Supreme Court invalidates laws prohibiting gay marriage, does that mean Christians must obey and respect these laws, or is civil disobedience appropriate?

 

[St Antony]

you do know he was not even a Christian really until his death? He feared God and that is why he gave so much and helped the church, but he was not actually a christian. He was baptized on his death bed and that is truly when he converted i think he feared God and hell.

Yes, he was not baptized until his deathbed (as was fairly common among Christians at that time, since baptism was a one time deal and since many Christians were afraid of sinning after their baptism if it happened too early in life. Back then, apparently they didn't believe in repentance and reconciliation!). He did, however, have a life changing experience at the Milvian Bridge where he believed he won a battle through the aid of the Christian God. He was openly sympathetic to Christianity throughout the rest of his life.

 

[TillICollapse]

Yes, he was not baptized until his deathbed (as was fairly common among Christians at that time, since baptism was a one time deal and since many Christians were afraid of sinning after their baptism if it happened too early in life. Back then, apparently they didn't believe in repentance and reconciliation!). He did, however, have a life changing experience at the Milvian Bridge where he believed he won a battle through the aid of the Christian God. He was openly sympathetic to Christianity throughout the rest of his life.

What are your thoughts on his supposed treatment of Jews ?

 

[stray bullet]

Constantine started the spread of Catholicism so eventually it made its way into the Baptist forum where the Baptists could be accused of flaming and goading and thereby silenced after Catholic rule of force failed to contain Christianity as a political tool to keep the Roman Empire from crumbling.

The Roman Empire feel in the west about a hundred years later due to migration.

The Roman Empire remained in the east for another 1100 years. The Church there was Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

In my view Constantine probably did more to spread the message of Christ than anyone outside of the Scriptures and should be celebrated. He never proselytized but only indirectly supported the Church, providing money for churches, relief for the poor, and facilitating efforts to resolve disputes in the Church like the Council of Nicaea. He really had little or nothing to do with developing any church doctrine or in governing the Church in any way. The Roman Empire was probably 5-10% Christian when he legalized worship of Christianity in 313 with the Edict of Tolerance. By his death in 337, the Empire was probably a quarter Christian and well on its way to being mostly Christian within a couple of centuries. Sure, many of these Christians were nominal or not devout to what we would want, and probably not saved, but how many people heard the Gospel because of his policies that wouldn't have heard otherwise?

I share this view.

Personally, after Jesus and Paul, I can't think of another human who did more to spread the faith in human history. What do you'll think?

I agree.

Thank you for caring enough to ask us these questions. Personally, I am extremely ashamed of people who identify themselves as Baptists and yet think that they have nothing better to do than to criticize their fellow believers. Objectively studying 4th century church history to learn the truth is a good thing; but to “study” 4th century church history to find flaws in the life on Constantine and other Christians is a shameful abomination.

 

[Avid]

So if the civil power takes action repugnant to our conscience and beliefs, and against our faith, we are required just to take it and support? What about gay marriage today? If the Supreme Court invalidates laws prohibiting gay marriage, does that mean Christians must obey and respect these laws, or is civil disobedience appropriate?

Your questions seem to confuse the difference between a person who is a private citizen and a person who is an elected official. To the point of how a publically elected official should respond, I refer to the answer by JFK, himself, when the issue was placed before him on one of those many occasions, and we actually have his response on tape. It is in a video posted earlier by me. He defaulted to the US Constitution, instead of the Roman Catholic Institution. It is for this very reason, that you have brought up, that Roman Catholics were banned from holding public office for a long time in this country.

As a private citizen, your question would be between you and your God. In this case, however, it may actually exist between you and your pope. Interesting you would ask a Baptist how a Roman Catholic should respond in such a case. Ask your pope in Rome. If you have sworn allegiance to him, let him tell you. If you are so against the Roman Catholic position on this matter, it may be better for you to realize that it qualifies you as actually being Protestant.

Martin Luther protested against the Roman Catholic Institution on one main issue, and posted 95 things about that. It had to do with error, the use of it by the Roman Catholic Institution to collect money from bereaved subjects, and how that money given to the Roman Catholic Institution would shorten the time their deceased loved ones spent in Purgatory. If this is something about which you side with Luther, you may be a Protestant at heart. If you side against Rome on the issue of Same Sex Marriage, you may be a Protestant. If you side against Rome on the issue of Abortion on Demand, you may be a Protestant.

 

[twin1954]

Your questions seem to confuse the difference between a person who is a private citizen and a person who is an elected official. To the point of how a publically elected official should respond, I refer to the answer by JFK, himself, when the issue was placed before him on one of those many occasions, and we actually have his response on tape. It is in a video posted earlier by me. He defaulted to the US Constitution, instead of the Roman Catholic Institution. It is for this very reason, that you have brought up, that Roman Catholics were banned from holding public office for a long time in this country.

As a private citizen, your question would be between you and your God. In this case, however, it may actually exist between you and your pope. Interesting you would ask a Baptist how a Roman Catholic should respond in such a case. Ask your pope in Rome. If you have sworn allegiance to him, let him tell you. If you are so against the Roman Catholic position on this matter, it may be better for you to realize that it qualifies you as actually being Protestant.

Martin Luther protested against the Roman Catholic Institution on one main issue, and posted 95 things about that. It had to do with error, the use of it by the Roman Catholic Institution to collect money from bereaved subjects, and how that money given to the Roman Catholic Institution would shorten the time their deceased loved ones spent in Purgatory. If this is something about which you side with Luther, you may be a Protestant at heart. If you side against Rome on the issue of Same Sex Marriage, you may be a Protestant. If you side against Rome on the issue of Abortion on Demand, you may be a Protestant.

If you got a couple of rusty cars up on blocks in your front yard you may be a redneck. If you have a refrigerator and a freezer on your front porch you may be a redneck. If you carry a rifle in a rack in the back window of your 4 wheel drive jacked up truck you may be a redneck.

 

[Avid]

So if the civil power takes action repugnant to our conscience and beliefs, and against our faith, we are required just to take it and support? What about gay marriage today? If the Supreme Court invalidates laws prohibiting gay marriage, does that mean Christians must obey and respect these laws, or is civil disobedience appropriate?

The topic is Constantine and not the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

It may be possible to return to the original subject, though, as the OP'er, you may be utilizing this as a way to narrow the discussion to the following part of the OP.

... how many people heard the Gospel because of his policies that wouldn't have heard otherwise?

The issue of anyone hearing the Gospel from any of those Churches may have to do with the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. It does not seem from the OP that Constantine was in the business of spreading the Gospel. It seems he may not have actually known what the Gospel was, and the earlier comments about him submitting to Christ later in life may go to support that. It may be helpful to have a sense of what Constantine promoted as the Gospel, or what the Churches he financed actually taught, so we may see if this was indeed a positive impact. Can you show what these things were so we can tell if the Gospel was part of that?

This may be why, as OP'er, you are including discussion of these beliefs, and asking these things on a Baptist forum. From the first paragraph of the OP, however, it seems these questions really do stem from a desire to understand what Baptists think of the Church that Constantine went about to establish.

 

[JM]

I discussing the concept of "symphonia" in the Eastern Orthodox thread (the idea that Church and State should work together and complement each other in building a Christian society), I noticed several comments to the effect that Constantine had an extremely negative influence on the Church, and basically perverted Christianity. This especially seemed to come from Evangelicals and other conservative Protestant denominations.

In my view Constantine probably did more to spread the message of Christ than anyone outside of the Scriptures and should be celebrated. He never proselytized but only indirectly supported the Church, providing money for churches, relief for the poor, and facilitating efforts to resolve disputes in the Church like the Council of Nicaea. He really had little or nothing to do with developing any church doctrine or in governing the Church in any way. The Roman Empire was probably 5-10% Christian when he legalized worship of Christianity in 313 with the Edict of Tolerance. By his death in 337, the Empire was probably a quarter Christian and well on its way to being mostly Christian within a couple of centuries. Sure, many of these Christians were nominal or not devout to what we would want, and probably not saved, but how many people heard the Gospel because of his policies that wouldn't have heard otherwise?

Just wondering if any Baptist, as the largest conservative denomination in the U.S., have any strong opinions on Constantine and his role in the growth of the Church? Is it the Da Vinci Code book? Personally, after Jesus and Paul, I can't think of another human who did more to spread the faith in human history. What do you'll think?

I recommend a podcast titled Communio Sanctorum for a Protestant view of church history.

History of the Christian Church - Communio Sanctorum

 

[Avid]

... What about gay marriage today?

Is the following NOT in the "Catholic Encyclopedia," and in the Syllabus, as asserted by Pope Pius IX ???

The Catholic Encyclopedia clearly so declares: “In case of direct contradiction, making it impossible for both jurisdictions to be exercised, the jurisdiction of the Church prevails and that of the State is excluded.” And Pope Pius IX in the Syllabus asserted: “To say in the case of conflicting laws enacted by the Two Powers, the civil law prevails, is error.”
​

This was widely known over 100 years ago. Some people on either side may take the following to equate to that, and, absent any specific language4 showing otherwise, I'll say this is very close to what has been the concern for centuries.

... I think I did swear to be faithful to the teachings of the Church and to the Pope in a spiritual sense...

I had someone give me a little book of the Roman Catholic Catechism that he was given as a child. Later, other people in a discussion similar to this tried to say that is not what the Roman Catholic Church taught. It is as if I was being told that, what this man was given to learn by that Institution, was NOT really what I was supposed to know their teaching was.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

The Roman Empire feel in the west about a hundred years later due to migration.

The Roman Empire remained in the east for another 1100 years. The Church there was Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.

so the Eastern Orthodox rebelled against Constantine and had nothing to do with the Inquisitions or with burning Protestants at the stake?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Baptists have always known Constantine and the Pope can offer no real hope. The only real hope is in Jesus Christ, not the Pope or Constantine.

Jesus Christ said "...I will build my church...."

He did not say "Constantine will establish and guide my church"

 

[SaintJoeNow]

The Roman Empire feel in the west about a hundred years later due to migration.

The Roman Empire remained in the east for another 1100 years. The Church there was Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.

Yes, Eastern Orthodox after the Orthodox Pope and the Roman Pope excommunicated each other.