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Baptist understanding of Mary

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Cary.Melvin, May 20, 2004.

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  1. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    What is the Baptist understanding of Mary role in Salvation history? Does it effect Baptists understand the nature of Jesus and our relationship with Him?

    Do Baptist believe Mary is the Mother of God?

    Do Baptist believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?

    Do Baptists believe that God made Mary emaculate (Without orginal sin) in order to make the vessel of his only beggoten Son suitable for Him?

    Do Baptists believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?
    Thanks,
     
  2. jenptcfan

    jenptcfan My cup runneth over

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    We believe that Mary has nothing to do with salvation other than giving birth to the one who gives us salvation.

    Yes we believe that Mary is the mother of Jesus.

    We believe that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, but we believe that as a married woman, she was not a virgin for her whole life.

    We do not believe that mary was without sin.

    We do not believe in the bodily assumption of Mary.
     
  3. bleechers

    bleechers Christ Our Passover!

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    jenptcfan nailed it. Thanks for asking! I'd just add a little... You know all this, so I hope you are not bringing debate to this room. :) Thanks for asking "do Baptists believe?" I trust that is the true intent of your post and you will abide by it. :)

    Mary has nothing to do with the gospel "delivered" or with Jesus' "obtaining eternal redemtion for us" (Hebrews). The epistles are silent on Mary. Galatians reveals that Paul had delivered and preached the gospel in its totality. Anyone adding to it, is accursed of God (Gal 1:1-12).

    No. God has no mother. This was covered clearly in another thread. Why do you ask again? You know Baptists have historically rejected this doctrine.

    Yes. She conceived of the Holy Spirit and no, Joseph did not know her "until" she had given birth. Both the OT and the NT teach that Mary had other children. Baptists have historically taught this. Thanks for asking.

    No. "My spirit rejoices in God my savior." She brought a sacrifice to the temple. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

    No. This recent doctrine is not accepted among Baptists. Honestly... you didn't know that?

    No problem. :)
     
  4. P_G

    P_G Pastor - ד ע ה - The Lunch Lady

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    Brother Carey

    If you can show me in the scriptures where anyone born of woman except for Y'shua Hamoshiach walked the earth in a sinless life I will beleive that it was possible for Mirriam to have done this.

    If you can show me that Miriam had been taken away bodily into heaven in the scriptures again I will beleive you but I see nothing mentioned in the bible of this event.

    I do notice that Chanokh, Eliyahu and Y'shua had been taken bodily into the heavens but not Miriam.

    I love to preach on Miriam and she does provide a beutiful example of godly obedience in the face of terrible odds. In the day she was betrothed to Yosef, to be pregnant out of wedlock was a sin worthy of death. She knew the law and chose obidience to the L-rd as he asked of her. That is a worthy thing. A blessed thing surely our sister Miriam was greatly blessed among women for this obidient act of love and sacrifice to Ha'Shem.

    Blessings

    Pastor George :wave:

    PS Please remember they were Jewish not Greek nor Roman it makes a difference!
     
  5. KennySe

    KennySe Habemus Papam!

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    Are you saying that the Word did not become flesh (a real human)?
    That the infant born of Mary was not God?
     
  6. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

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    If I may ask a follow up :)

    Do Baptists believe that Jesus received His humanity from Mary, or do they believe that she was just an empty vessel or vehicle to bring forth God the Word into the world ?

    Thanks :)

    P.S. I used to be Baptist and this was NEVER touched on so I am genuinely curious.
     
  7. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    You may not want to ask questions, it may prompt people to debate.

    And why are you using those weird names, and leaving the "o" out of Lord?
     
  8. jenptcfan

    jenptcfan My cup runneth over

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    The infant born of Mary was not God the father, no. He was God the son.
     
  9. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

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    jenptcfan,

    Kenny did not say God the Father, but God (the Word). However they are one in Essence.
     
  10. P_G

    P_G Pastor - ד ע ה - The Lunch Lady

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    Cary you can't expect any one to think you didn't come a askin with out
    wanting a debate. You know what you are asking is straight up 100% RCC doctrine. But I am not going to debate you at all. I have said what I have said.

    And as for those wierd names:


    Wierder say than Greek?

    They are the proper translitteration of the Hebrew names which is what these dear people were known by. I figured you probably did not read Hebrew so I used the Roman alphabit so as you could read it.

    Respectfully the vowels are left out of the proper name of Ha'Shem that it might never be disgraced nor destroyed vainly. (I don't know you might get mad and delete this post)

    Blessings

    Don't forget you asked the question
    no debating now!

    Pastor George :wave:
     
  11. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, Cary





    Mary was elected before the foundations of the world to serve in God’s plan, just like so many other have. Her role in the plan was key, but that is why God chose her. I am not sure I understand the question “nature”.






    I will stick with God-bearer, the use of this phase often is problematic.





    No lacks historical fact:

    "To this effect they testify, saying, that before Joseph had come together with Mary, while she therefore remained in virginity, 'she was found with child of the Holy Ghost;'" (Against Heresies, 3:21:4)

    Irenaeus seems to associate "come together" with sexual intercourse. The implication is that Joseph and Mary had normal marital relations after Jesus was born.

    The lord was born of a virgin yes.







    For all have sinned except the Lord himself for he is God.



    Ambrose (c. 339-97): So, then, no one is without sin except God alone, for no one is without sin except God. Also, no one forgives sins except God alone, for it is also written: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And one cannot be the Creator of all except he be not a creature, and he who is not a creature is without doubt God; for it is written: “They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, Who is God blessed for ever.” God also does not worship, but is worshipped, for it is written: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve.” NPNF2: Vol. X, On the Holy Spirit, Book III, Chapter 18, §133.




    The scripture teaches abou Elijah, Mary on the other hand.



    "Raymond E. Brown, S.S., born in 1928 and ordained in 1953, has been recognized by universities in the U.S.A. and Europe by some twenty honorary doctoral degrees. He was appointed by Pope Paul VI to the Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and with church approval he has served for many years on the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches. Time magazine once described him as 'probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S.,' and he is the only person to have served as president of all three of these distinguished societies: the Catholic Biblical Association, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the Society of New Testament Studies."



    Raymond E. Brown: Some Roman Catholics may have expected me to include a discussion of the historicity of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. But these Marian doctrines, which are not mentioned in Scripture, clearly lie outside my topic which was the quest for historical knowledge of Mary in the NT. Moreover, I would stress the ambiguity of the term “historicity” when applied to these two doctrines. A Roman Catholic must accept the two dogmas as true upon the authority of the teaching Church, but he does not have to hold that the dogmas are derived from a chain of historical information. There is no evidence that Mary (or anyone else in NT times) knew that she was conceived free of original sin, especially since the concept of original sin did not fully exist in the first century. The dogma is not based upon information passed down by Mary or by the apostles; it is based on the Church’s insight that the sinlessness of Jesus should have affected his origins, and hence his mother, as well. Nor does a Catholic have to think that the people gathered for her funeral saw Mary assumed into heaven—there is no reliable historical tradition to that effect, and the dogma does not even specify that Mary died. Once again the doctrine stems from the Church’s insight about the application of the fruits of redemption to the leading disciple: Mary has gone before us, anticipating our common fate. Raymond E. Brown, Biblical Reflections on Crises facing the Church (New York: Paulist Press, 1975), p. 105, fn. 103.



    Good questions, But many can not be found with in the context of the Faith passed down to the saints. Weather though scripture passed down or men who defended the faith.



    Peace to u,



    Bill







     
  12. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

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    Here he is speaking IMO of Christological nature. IOW, Who is Jesus the Christ WRT to Divinity & humanity ?
     
  13. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

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    Do any Baptists use the term Theotokos ?

    Aside: My sisters Methodist minister gave a sermon where the title was at least recognized. I did not hear it in person so I cannot vouch for the context, but I do know that she squirmed in her pew wanting to raise her 'pick me teacher !' hand as she has been to a few EO services :)
     
  14. Crazy Liz

    Crazy Liz New Member

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    I'm not Baptist, but identify with some of the other Free Church Protestant traditions represented in this forum. I personally think Baptists and many other Free Church Protestants go out of their way to disrespect Mary out of reaction to Catholicism. I believe and hope the following represents a view that is acceptable in all Free Church Protestant denominations.

    Most Baptists don't understand what the title Mother of God means.

    Baptists generally believe in the virgin birth. Those who have studied generally do not take a position on whether or not she ever had sex with Joseph after Jesus' birth. It simply is not important to Baptists' doctrine. It is a matter of indifference except in overstated polemics trying to discredit Catholicism.

    No.

    No, but this is another matter that most Baptists who have really thought about it and studied would say they are indifferent to, rather than something they believe is false.
     
  15. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    Crazy Liz,

    Thank you for your answer. I was very non-biased.

    Thanks,
     
  16. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    Perhapse I could re-orient the question?

    Would you think it would be Ok for a Baptist to believe in one or more of these doctrines?

    For instance, would it be permissable for a Baptist to believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?
     
  17. bleechers

    bleechers Christ Our Passover!

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    Of course not. Why the feigned ignorance? We covered this quite extensively in another thread. Why do you seek to set traps and beguile?

    Of course the infant is God in Baptist theology. By asking you reveal much concerning your intentions.

    I answered this compeletely in another thread. Why do you persist?
     
  18. Bulldog

    Bulldog Don't Tread on Me

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    I have never heard them use it.

    It is translated as Mother of God, which can bring up problems, since God created Mary and is the Father of Mary.

    I agree with Bill, God Bearer is a better term IMO.
     
  19. II Paradox II

    II Paradox II Oracle of the Obvious

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    Perhaps the best way of looking at it is that Marian doctrines are not central to the theological core of Baptists in general. The answers you will get when you ask about whether we use Theotokos or other such issues will usually end up being a reaction to Catholic dogma, a rather confused shuffling or general disinterest.

    Simply put, we do not put much weight on these doctrines in themselves for they really don't matter one way or the other to our theological tradition. To the degree they affect our Christology, we tend to take notice, but beyond that they are usually just seen as outside of our way of thought.

    For instance, I personally have no problem with using the term God-Bearer, and I have no huge theological problem with the perpetual virginity (I honestly don't have much of an opinion either way). The Assumption I doubt highly on historical grounds and the IC seems logically and historically flawed.

    For many protestants, we simply take the position that to go beyond what is written and call it dogma is incorrect. As such, such marian doctrines may be believed if one wishes to, but they should not be made articles of belief or fellowship as the scriptures do not speak clearly to them.

    ken
     
  20. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

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    Thanks.

    Using the explicit Greek term Theotokos gets past the translation problems such as equating Mother with Creator, which is why I wondered if it was (or perhaps could be) used by Protestants/Baptists to keep these misunderstandings at bay.
     
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