Autistic Spectrum...?

[Sabertooth]

Continued from "is this aspergers, and what prospects relationally?"

spec·trum
ˈspektrəm/
noun
noun: spectrum; plural noun: spectra; plural noun: spectrums

1. 1.
   a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength.
   • the entire range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation.
     noun: the spectrum
   • an image or distribution of components of any electromagnetic radiation arranged in a progressive series according to wavelength.
   • an image or distribution of components of sound, particles, etc., arranged according to such characteristics as frequency, charge, and energy.
2. 2.
   used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points.
   "the left or the right of the political spectrum"

 

[Sabertooth]

"Asperger's" DOES NOT EXIST as a "colloquialism" or anything else in the DSM-V. Point out where it is mentioned in the DSM-V.

Of course, it is not in the DSM-V. That people still use it unofficially (meaning "autism with no cognitive deficits," which is recognized by the DSM-V) is the very definition of a colloquialism. (BTW, you won't find "rapture" or "Trinity" anywhere in your Bible, either, but those concepts are still supported.)

This is further supported when the mother of modern autism (and the spectrum concept) makes a distinction between neuro-diversity & neuro-disability. Dr. Wing can hardly be considered an icon of "pop neurology."

 

[BryanMaloney]

Of course, it is not in the DSM-V. That people still use it unofficially (meaning "autism with no cognitive deficits," which is recognized by the DSM-V) is the very definition of a colloquialism. (BTW, you won't find "rapture" or "Trinity" anywhere in your Bible, either, but those concepts are still supported.)

This is further supported when the mother of modern autism (and the spectrum concept) makes a distinction between neuro-diversity & neuro-disability. Dr. Wing can hardly be considered an icon of "pop neurology."

But it is possible to have "high functioning autism" under the DSM-IV that does NOT have cognitive deficits. Asperger's had other attributes. Likewise, quote your Dr. Wing using YOUR stupid pseudo-terminology of "red" and "violet". You can't because SHE NEVER USED IT! Just how much work have you done in neuroscience? What is the actual basis of your "red" and "violet" terminology. You can look my work up, since I have the courage to use my real name and not hide in a cowardly fashion behind a nickname.

 

[Sabertooth]

You have no clue what a spectrum can refer to, do you? A spectrum is NOT restricted only to colors. It isn't even restricted to electromagnetic energy. A spectrum can refer to any sort of continuum that has some sort of clustering therein but does not have hard-and-fast boundaries that easily delineate categories.

Color is just a convenient analogy. IIRC, in the DSM-V, it is called the "Supports Intensity Scale."

 

[BryanMaloney]

Continued from "is this aspergers, and what prospects relationally?"

spec·trum
ˈspektrəm/
noun
noun: spectrum; plural noun: spectra; plural noun: spectrums

1. 1.
   a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength.
   • the entire range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation.
     noun: the spectrum
   • an image or distribution of components of any electromagnetic radiation arranged in a progressive series according to wavelength.
   • an image or distribution of components of sound, particles, etc., arranged according to such characteristics as frequency, charge, and energy.
2. 2.
   used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points.
   "the left or the right of the political spectrum"

You just proved my point. THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY COLOR TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SOMETHING FOR IT TO BE A SPECTRUM!

What is your experience in actual neuroscience?

 

[Sabertooth]

...and not hide in a cowardly fashion behind a nickname.

Ad hominen? Really...?

(As Sabertooth, I can come out publicly with my autism. If I used my real name, it would be picked up when prospective employers would Google me. So, let's have no more of that.)

 

[Sabertooth]

But it is possible to have "high functioning autism" under the DSM-IV that does NOT have cognitive deficits...

Unless there is a second dimension, the autistic spectrum is largely ordered on cognitive functioning, with its poles being highest functioning & lowest functioning. High-functioning would be a relative position, presumably north of the equator.

 

[grandvizier1006]

You just proved my point. THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY COLOR TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SOMETHING FOR IT TO BE A SPECTRUM!

What is your experience in actual neuroscience?

Calm down a bit, please. We're all supposed to be friends here

The whole debate about how "we" should label "ourselves" is pretty subjective and full of semantics. Having Asperger's is sometimes an issue in my life, other times it isn't. Don't feel like just because not everyone else sees it your way that we're all in denial or something. I'd say there is a bit of a spectrum of sorts, given that various people like us can be "normal" or "weird", or have more or less issues with sensory stuff, social interaction, etc. Than others.

 

[Chris B]

"Asperger's syndrome" was an official term when I was diagnosed eleven years ago at the age of 48.
It had its place, and probably still does for some uses, as a diagnostic criterion as there was very limited recognition twenty years for how variably an autistic condition could present.
The use of "spectrum" has helped, but is still widely misunderstood.
"Where is he on the spectrum?" may be an improvement over "Well, is it autism or isn't it?" but there is a more important use for the idea of autism and "spectrum", which came with the understanding, which has not yet penetrated into wide public awareness, that is it is not half so much that any affected individual will be somewhere on the spectrum (as opposed to being placed with two or three distinct, different diagnoses) as it is that they will be on lots of different places on the spectrum for specific abilities and characteristics.
The ability profile of someone with autism tends to be very spiky. High abilites and blindspots can be very close alongside each other.
This can confuse people who are used to, and expect, a more even profile across the board.
I have some major blind spots or disabilities with my autism, and were anyone to first encounter me struggling or adrift in one of these, they would be very likely to rate my mental or general competence as poor. On the other hand if they met me in one of my areas of competence (or better than that!) my overall competence is likely to be assumed.
But the handling of language in speech, for example, can be drastically poorer than for the same language, written.

"High functioning" is tricky for similar reasons. I know someone who would be considered that on many abilities, buts needs significant supervising due to the single spiky trait of having not the slightest sense of danger.

Where am I on the spectrum? A fair variety of places.

 

[Sabertooth]

That presentation sounds like what was previously known as PDD-NOS and mimics the findings in savantism. In the gifted crowd, that is known as asynchronous development. But my two severe children's cases are pretty straightforward. My 28yo son has a consistent mental age of 6-10yo. And my 21yo daughter, a m.a. of 18mos. They would occupy pretty stable positions on my proposed spectrum analogy.

 

[Chris B]

Unlike the Hollyood version savantism, while it clearly exists, is pretty rare. It is a fascinating phenomenon.
I have a few things I am exceptionally good at, but nothing that fits me for that class.

It's the Pervasive part of PDD which is not the ideal fit with the frequently spiky ("too much AND too little") ability and character profile of many autistic people, but for others the spikiness, good or bad, isn't pronounced.
We vary. Enormously.
(my friend who is not safe in a kitchen or catching a bus can thrash me at Scrabble and for best time on a Rubik's cube.)
Quite often a label hangs around long after it's gone out of date due to better knowledge.
ME is not myalgic encephalomyelitis, but the initials at least tend to be kept out of sheer familiarity.
Doctors and statisticians have to have something to write down to fill the spaces for diagnosis or category.

 

[Sabertooth]

I understand that a scatter of abilities can exist on the autistic spectrum, but must we use a general description for everyone when a specific description better describes a particular case? The American flag is a tricolor: red, white & blue. If it were just blue, we would just call it blue.

By homogenizing all cases of autism, it tends to obscure the unprecedented epidemic of actually disabled autistics vs. the neuro-diverse variety. That is what Dr. Wing was saying about her daughter, Susie.

I am neuro-diverse, apparently from a long line of neuro-diverse ancestors. I'm cool with that. My Aaron & Shiloh are neuro-disabled and the first known in my family lines to be so, but all too common in their generation. I am dedicated to them, but if I could have protected them from their condition, I would have. (Do note, I am not proposing selective abortion.) Neuro-diverse autism, okay. Even Temple Grandin has said that a little autism is a good thing. Too much is a bad thing.

@Chris B , do you consider yourself neuro-diverse or neuro-disabled?

 

[Chris B]

I understand that a scatter of abilities can exist on the autistic spectrum, but must we use a general description for everyone when a specific description better describes a particular case? The American flag is a tricolor: red, white & blue. If it were just blue, we would just call it blue.

Dealing with individuals it is important to recognise them as individuals...
But then hospitals, researhrs, politicians etc. need some sort of data on which to work.
If you avoid clumping every case into the same ultra broad category, that's unhelpful, but any attempt to classify into a number of types or categories is going to leave lots of individuals fitting no category well, or overlapping between categories.

By homogenizing all cases of autism, it tends to obscure the unprecedented epidemic of actually disabled autistics vs. the neuro-diverse variety. That is what Dr. Wing was saying about her daughter, Susie.

Even Temple Grandin has said that a little autism is a good thing. Too much is a bad thing.

I'll go with that.

Chris B , do you consider yourself neuro-diverse or neuro-disabled?

Both, and as a topping it depends on context!
For one very big thing, put me in a diversity-tolerant environment and some of my disabilities aren't any more.
If I'm in a setting where a high degree of conformity is expected, demanded, then these days I know how to do "social" but it is markedly tiring.
And nowadays due to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome I can't afford to get tired.
Some people relax and recharge in company. Other people find that a drain *even when it is fun or worthwhile*.
Being in a group of the first who do not understand that the second exists, that's not good.

"One of the major problems with neurotypicals is that they have a remarkable intolerance of difference and expect everyone to accept the same culture and conventions, yet, as humans, we have always progressed by being different."
Tony Attwood. (personal communication, but with permission to quote).

I can cope with unwritten rules is someone puts them down in black and white for me.

It's not just society, good or bad. Even away from people I am bad, bad, bad, at multi-channel processing and multitasking.
One thing at a time. I cope poorly in overloaded environments: noisy visually as well as acoustically.
I have bigger holes, too, connected with the handling and processing of emotions, which are not easily patched over ow worked around.

On the other hand I was fortunate in finding (undiagnosed) a niche career in which I could succeed, so I had independent living, a house, a car, and could in rough and small-scale terms be considered a success. It wasn't until many years later that it was clear to me and clinicians that I had grown up exactly as one of Hans Asperger's "little professors".
On the whole I didn't enjoy my childhood except for books. "Friends" was a difficult concept. "Team" was bad enough: I've never got beyond "what is my role in this team?" At 59 I've still got adequate good handle on what "love" is, and certainly no clear internal reference for it. Duty I know, and concern. It stops about there.

Several times on ASD groups the question has come: if there was a cure, would you want it if it eliminated your problems, but also all your traits that you don't consider problems.
I'd find that a hard call, but it still falls that I'd rather be me.

And a society that better understood and accepted difference would make a massive difference to me, without any difference in me...
(Hang on, aren't *they* supposed to be the emotionally and socially adaptable and flexible ones?)

 

[BryanMaloney]

That presentation sounds like what was previously known as PDD-NOS and mimics the findings in savantism. In the gifted crowd, that is known as asynchronous development. But my two severe children's cases are pretty straightforward. My 28yo son has a consistent mental age of 6-10yo. And my 21yo daughter, a m.a. of 18mos. They would occupy pretty stable positions on my proposed spectrum analogy.

Show the real research to back up your contentions, then. Prove that TWO CASES DEFINE IT ALL, FOR EVERYONE WITH ASD! Show the evidence. Show the research. Show the models. Show the nosology.

 

[BryanMaloney]

I understand that a scatter of abilities can exist on the autistic spectrum, but must we use a general description for everyone when a specific description better describes a particular case? The American flag is a tricolor: red, white & blue. If it were just blue, we would just call it blue.

By homogenizing all cases of autism, it tends to obscure the unprecedented epidemic of actually disabled autistics vs. the neuro-diverse variety. That is what Dr. Wing was saying about her daughter, Susie.

I am neuro-diverse, apparently from a long line of neuro-diverse ancestors. I'm cool with that. My Aaron & Shiloh are neuro-disabled and the first known in my family lines to be so, but all too common in their generation. I am dedicated to them, but if I could have protected them from their condition, I would have. (Do note, I am not proposing selective abortion.) Neuro-diverse autism, okay. Even Temple Grandin has said that a little autism is a good thing. Too much is a bad thing.

@Chris B , do you consider yourself neuro-diverse or neuro-disabled?

Have you even GLANCED AT the DSM-V criteria? Even once? Even for 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 seconds? The DSM-V DOES NOT HOMOGENIZE! Point out EXACTLY how it "homogenizes" us. Go ahead, show the EVIDENCE that it homogenizes us. Show the evidence. Show the hard evidence.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Unless there is a second dimension, the autistic spectrum is largely ordered on cognitive functioning, with its poles being highest functioning & lowest functioning. High-functioning would be a relative position, presumably north of the equator.

Thank you for proving your UTTER IGNORANCE of the current DSM-V criteria of autism. Cognitive functioning is NOT A DIAGNOSTIC CRITERION FOR AUTISM SPECTRUM. You only show off that you have NO UNDERSTANDING AT ALL of what ASD is.

Quote SPECIFICALLY from the DSM-V where autism spectrum is ordered on cognitive functioning. Provide the QUOTES or retract your UTTER LIE!

 

[BryanMaloney]

Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder

1. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
   1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
   2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
   3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.

Specify current severity:

Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.

1. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
   1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
   2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
   3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).
   4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g. apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).

Specify current severity:

Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.

1. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).
2. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
3. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.
   

So, now QUOTE THE SPECIFIC PART that indicates that the autism spectrum is ordered on cognitive function. GIVE THE SPECIFIC PART OF THE DSM-V CRITERIA or STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT MY PEOPLE!

 

[Sabertooth]

For zealous enforcers of the DSM-V, DSM-V vs. ICD-10 is an extraneous debate in this thread, which I will not be drawn into. (My POV is implicit in the former, explicit in the latter.)