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lesliedellow

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Hello, I am a former christian, I de-converted to atheism a few years ago and would like to ask for reasons why I should return to christianity.

Somebody returning to Christianity has probably got a two stage process to go through:

1.) Coming to believe that there is a God.

2.) Coming to believe that that God is specifically the Christian God.

A book like this might help with the first stage: Home: Questions of Truth

The second stage can probably only be accomplished if you come to appreciate the force of arguments made from internal evidence in the New Testament. That is probably not the easiest of things to do if you believe that everything between its covers is bunkum. Nevertheless, there were around half a dozen messianic sects in first century Palestine, and all of them became extinct after the Romans had disposed of their various leaders. All except one that is. So you might start by asking yourself what was so different about that sect that it not only survived, but today has 2.2 billion followers.
 
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Meissner

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Somebody returning to Christianity has probably got a two stage process to go through:

1.) Coming to believe that there is a God.

2.) Coming to believe that that God is specifically the Christian God.

A book like this might help with the first stage: Home: Questions of Truth

The second stage can probably only be accomplished if you come to appreciate the force of arguments made from internal evidence in the New Testament. That is probably not the easiest of things to do if you believe that everything between its covers is bunkum. Nevertheless, there were around half a dozen messianic sects in first century Palestine, and all of them became extinct after the Romans had disposed of their various leaders. All except one that is. So you might start by asking yourself what was so different about that sect that it not only survived, but today has 2.2 billion followers.

O.K. then, lets start with process 1;
Coming to believe that there exists at least one god.

The proposal of any sort of deity is constricted by the fact of it's total lack of necessity. Every proposal of god that has been able to be tested has revealed a natural cause and that there is no good reason to hold such a belief as the supernatural, thus leaving the argument with three types of arguments, one's that we know are false, ones we cannot test at this point in time and ones that we can probably never test.

If you believe in such an entity, then something has convinced you, as belief is the result of being convinced, what causes YOU to believe?

I'm not even going to bother verifying or debunking the points you make in support of the christian god since this would be pointless without first establishing belief in the existence of god(s).
 
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lesliedellow

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The proposal of any sort of deity is constricted by the fact of it's total lack of necessity.

You can always come up with more than one explanation. Creationists are doing it all the time. The question is, which explanation sounds more likely, and which explanation sounds like an attempt to explain away inconvenient facts. If you think that creationists have got a monopoly on the latter, you are wrong.


Every proposal of god that has been able to be tested has revealed a natural cause
Not so. There have been postulated natural causes, some provable, some not.


and that there is no good reason to hold such a belief as the supernatural,
Like I said, it comes down to a subjective judgment about which of the proferred explanations sounds more likely.


thus leaving the argument with three types of arguments, one's that we know are false, ones we cannot test at this point in time and ones that we can probably never test.
It sounds as if you have already made up your mind.


If you believe in such an entity, then something has convinced you, as belief is the result of being convinced, what causes YOU to believe.
I believe for all sorts of reasons, but if I was trying to get somebody as far as Deism, I would probably point to somebody like the following astrophysicist, and professed atheist. Whether he ever formally abandoned his atheism, I don't know, but he certainly sounds as if he should have done:

"Would you not say to yourself, 'Some super- calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule.' Of course you would . . .. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." (Fred Hoyle)

The book I posted a link to could expand upon that. But for example, if gravity was one part in 10 to the fifteenth stronger than it is, then it would have collapsed back in on itself shortly after the big bang. On the other hand, if it was weaker by a similarly miniscule amount, the stars would never have formed, and there would be no elements hevier than hydrogen and helium. The latter is inert, and the former would have nothing to react with. Astrophysics is full of "lucky" conincidences, and the universe appears to be balanced upon a knife edge. So is there a designer twiddling the knobs, as one physicist put it, or are there billions upon billions of other universes, unobserved and unobservable, and we live in the one which just happened to strike lucky in a cosmic lottery? And which explanation sounds the more extravagent?
 
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Very simple actually, I believed all those things before and found later that I was wrong to believe them.

That's exactly my point. If you were wrong to believe them, then you weren't a Christian. Being a Christian requires that all of these things be true. It is God who makes you a Christian. It isn't something you decide to do. If there is no God to make you a Christian, then you were not a Christian.

no...What I'm saying is that I used to believe such things, not that it actually happened, big difference.

If they never happened, then you were not a Christian.

You are committing a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

And you are committing a "no true Scotsman fallacy fallacy". The NTS fallacy is a subjective judgement that something cannot be true because it does not meet the preferences of the one judging.

What I'm saying is that there are conditions that must be met and, by your own admission, you did not meet those conditions.

That is, unless you'd like to explain how one can be a Christian without those things being true.

And what did you do exactly? say I wasn't a true christian by your standards.

No, I never said you weren't a Christian by my standards. I never said anything about my standards at all.

What I said is that, by your own admission, you never met the criteria required to be a Christian.

how are you so sure that these conditions are actually in play?

For two reasons:

First and foremost, because they Bible says they are.

Second, because when a thing is defined, it is assumed that the conditions set by the definition must be fulfilled for it to be that thing.

Easily, seeing as I don't believe that they are true, I think every christian is a christian without those things being true.

But Christianity isn't defined by what you think is true.

The fact that you admit your definition of Christianity is based on your own preference and not onscripture just casts further doubt on your claim.
 
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Meissner

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That's exactly my point. If you were wrong to believe them, then you weren't a Christian. Being a Christian requires that all of these things be true. It is God who makes you a Christian. It isn't something you decide to do. If there is no God to make you a Christian, then you were not a Christian.
(My highlighting)



If they never happened, then you were not a Christian.

(My highlighting)

And you are committing a "no true Scotsman fallacy fallacy". The NTS fallacy is a subjective judgement that something cannot be true because it does not meet the preferences of the one judging.

And what did you do exactly? say I wasn't a true christian by your standards.

What I'm saying is that there are conditions that must be met and, by your own admission, you did not meet those conditions.

how are you so sure that these conditions are actually in play?

That is, unless you'd like to explain how one can be a Christian without those things being true.

Easily, seeing as I don't believe that they are true, I think every christian is a christian without those things being true.
 
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Meissner

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You can always come up with more than one explanation. Creationists are doing it all the time. The question is, which explanation sounds more likely, and which explanation sounds like an attempt to explain away inconvenient facts. If you think that creationists have got a monopoly on the latter, you are wrong.

Care to expand on who has the monopoly and why?

which explanation sounds more likely

The one that doesn't invoke the supernatural

which explanation sounds the more extravagent?

The one that invokes the supernatural
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hello, I am a former christian, I de-converted to atheism a few years ago and would like to ask for reasons why I should return to christianity.

Well I will do as I always do, that is to share my experiences with God with you at Know God Personally and hope that my experience with God will help you see the reality of Jesus. I have included one story from my website here so you know what I mean by experiences:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.
 
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Meissner

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Well I will do as I always do, that is to share my experiences with God with you at Know God Personally and hope that my experience with God will help you see the reality of Jesus. I have included one story from my website here so you know what I mean by experiences:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Confirmation bias coupled with pre-supposition is a deathly-strong cocktail.
 
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Confirmation bias coupled with pre-supposition is a deathly-strong cocktail.

I think it is wise to have a bias based upon such a confirmation. deathly-strong sounds very serious, God is not very serious, he is infact a very nice guy to know, you should try getting to know him on a personal level, that is presupposing he actually exists. Which incodentially I know he does.
 
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lesliedellow

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Care to expand on who has the monopoly and why?

I thought I just said that creationists DIDN'T have a monopoly when it comes to dreaming up extravagent explanations to explain things away. It is at least a duopoly, with atheists as the other party. And you would have found out why I said that if you had read on.
 
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lesliedellow

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The one that invokes the supernatural

Like I said, you have already made up your mind. What exactly makes countless billions of other universes, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, more likely than one God? It is strange how we heard nothing about all these other universes until physicists tripped across the huge improbability of this universe even existing.

There are only two reasons physicists have come up with for postulating the existence of any universe except this one. One reason is the embarrassment of riches that string theorists find themselves with. They have no way of deciding which of the 10^500 possible string theories actually applies to this universe, so they have decided that there must be one universe for every possible string theory. They have no evidence for that (or almost anything else associated with string theory), and an increasing number of physicists are giving up on string theory for that reason.

The other motive for postulating more than one universe is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, and that is what it says - an interpretation. Most physicists are still signed up to the Copenhagen Interpretation.
 
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Tnmusicman

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Hello, I am a former christian, I de-converted to atheism a few years ago and would like to ask for reasons why I should return to christianity.
I suppose you left the christian faith for what you deemed were good reasons but if you were talked out of your spiritual stance ( I won't say easily like some might ) I would question your initial commitment in the first place. Was it what you were raised in? Was it a commitment after you left home and felt like there was no good reason to continue? These are questions that would need to be answered as well as many others for someone other than yourself to make an educated comment on.
The long and short of my answer is you should return ONLY if you have had a true change of heart and if the reasons you left in the first place have been put to rest and are no longer questions in your mind otherwise your commitment will probably be half-hearted and not genuine. One thing I would like to comment on. Christians and atheists debate on the existance of God all the time and more than likely it's a matter that will never be settled. No, I don't have 100% proof of Gods existance, however I know in my heart that God is real. Yes, its a lifestyle built on faith but it's not blind faith as it's so often refered to. It's a true joy when anyone comes to know the Lord,commitment wise, but one must be willing to embrace the relationship between his/her self and the Lord. I pray you will make whatever decision is best FOR YOU and noone else.
 
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Tnmusicman

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Hello, I am a former christian, I de-converted to atheism a few years ago and would like to ask for reasons why I should return to christianity.

I suppose you left the christian faith for what you deemed were good reasons but if you were talked out of your spiritual stance ( I won't say easily like some might ) I would question your initial commitment in the first place. Was it what you were raised in? Was it a commitment after you left home and felt like there was no good reason to continue? These are questions that would need to be answered as well as many others for someone other than yourself to make an educated comment on.
The long and short of my answer is you should return ONLY if you have had a true change of heart and if the reasons you left in the first place have been put to rest and are no longer questions in your mind otherwise your commitment will probably be half-hearted and not genuine. One thing I would like to comment on. Christians and atheists debate on the existance of God all the time and more than likely it's a matter that will never be settled. No, I don't have 100% proof of Gods existance, however I know in my heart that God is real. Yes, its a lifestyle built on faith but it's not blind faith as it's so often refered to. It's a true joy when anyone comes to know the Lord,commitment wise, but one must be willing to embrace the relationship between his/her self and the Lord. I pray you will make whatever decision is best FOR YOU and noone else.
 
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Meissner

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Like I said, you have already made up your mind. What exactly makes countless billions of other universes, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, more likely than one God? It is strange how we heard nothing about all these other universes until physicists tripped across the huge improbability of this universe even existing.

I honestly don't have enough depth of knowledge on the topic multi-verse theory to argue these points with you, besides, how do you know that the only two options are either god or multi-verse? What if this is the only universe that can exist and the only reason it seems to balance on such a knife edge is because it's the only way it can be?

There are only two reasons physicists have come up with for postulating the existence of any universe except this one. One reason is the embarrassment of riches that string theorists find themselves with. They have no way of deciding which of the 10^500 possible string theories actually applies to this universe, so they have decided that there must be one universe for every possible string theory. They have no evidence for that (or almost anything else associated with string theory), and an increasing number of physicists are giving up on string theory for that reason.

The other motive for postulating more than one universe is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, and that is what it says - an interpretation. Most physicists are still signed up to the Copenhagen Interpretation.

Natural explanations are by default more believable than supernatural, String Theory is a young field of theoretical physics and to be honest I don't think any discussion about it will help us here.
 
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Meissner

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I think it is wise to have a bias based upon such a confirmation. deathly-strong sounds very serious, God is not very serious, he is infact a very nice guy to know, you should try getting to know him on a personal level, that is presupposing he actually exists. Which incodentially I know he does.

how do you know?
 
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lesliedellow

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What if this is the only universe that can exist and the only reason it seems to balance on such a knife edge is because it's the only way it can be?

How can that be? A universe consisting only of hydrogen and helium would be pretty uninteresting, but it would still exist. Theoretical physicists amuse themselves all the time by inventing "toy" universes. That is probably how they stumbled upon just how unique this one is.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hello, I am a former christian, I de-converted to atheism a few years ago and would like to ask for reasons why I should return to christianity.

The religion-y sounding answer: Because in Christ there is freedom, liberation, hope for new life, pure communion with God, and so forth.

My answer: I can't tell you why you should return to Christianity. Or at least not in any way that may satisfy you. I think the most any of us can do is state why we are Christians, whether we've always been in the Faith (such as myself), converted later in life, or left and returned.

I'm a Christian because I want to believe and follow Jesus, and because the Jesus I encounter in the Gospel texts and in the vast witness and tradition of the Christian Church is utterly compelling that I'm willing to accept whatever personal or corporate baggage that might entail. I've become accepting of my own discomforts, my own doubts, and in much of the real or perceived absurdity of the Christian faith. Christianity is pretty ridiculous, I'm fine with that, and perhaps in a strange way that is in part why I love it so much and want to fling myself headlong into it.

But much of that has taken me my entire life up until now to accept. It's probably in some sense something like Kierkegaard's "leap to faith".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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