Are You Deceived?

[Kokavkrystallos]

Are You Deceived?
People think they're saved, or hope they're saved, because they believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who died for their sins, but yet they are NOT saved! Why? Doesn't the Bible say just believe? Yes, but true saving belief will show fruits and requires repentance.

You think you can lust after girls, and talk all this foul nasty sex talk: this stuff's coming from your heart, and shows you ain't saved. Don't believe that, or think it's too harsh? What did Jesus say?
Matthew 15:18-20,
"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man."

If your thoughts haven't changed, and your language hasn't changed, and you're still getting off on foul dirty jokes and sexual innuendos, you're still going to hell.

Ephesians 4:29-32
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Eph. 5:3-8
"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

What's it say? Filthiness, foolish talking, and jesting. Prior to that it mentions corrupt communication out of your mouth, anger, clamour, and evil speaking. That includes talking about some girls body parts in a lustful way, or guys body parts, or homo joking. It's filthiness; it's coming from the heart, which is wicked and deceitful, and scripture says those who do such things won't inherit the kingdom of Christ and God. That means those who do this stuff are headed to hell, plain and simple.
It's not just the act of fornication and adultery and same sex that's sin: it's the mere thought of it in any lustful or lewd way. The practice of these things in any way, including inappropriate content, is a sign of an unregenerate, lost soul. God has called you to holiness, and without holiness no one shall see the Lord. (Heb 12:14)

Colossians 3:8-9, "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds..."
You know Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death? This is serious stuff man: not to be fooled around with, as this:
Matthew 5:28, "I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Take this following scripture at face value. It means what it says and says what it means:
Matthew 7:13-23,
" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So you see it's possible to "believe" in Jesus in a way, and not be saved. James says even the devils believe and they tremble. If you're to be saved you need saving faith and saving belief - and that's a faith and belief that manifests itself in actions: you will repent and turn from your sins; you should want nothing to do with sin any longer. Cry out to God for mercy and forgiveness, because if you're doing any of these things (And I did them all before myself), you're on that broad way that leads to destruction, and you seriously need to get on the narrow way that leads unto life.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

The following is from George Whitefield's sermon "Method of Grace" - quite relevant here:

Lay Hold of Christ by Faith​

Once more then: before you can speak peace to your heart, you must not only be convinced of your actual and original sin, the sins of your own righteousness, the sin of unbelief, but you must be enabled to lay hold upon the perfect righteousness, the all-sufficient righteousness, of the Lord Jesus Christ; you must lay hold by faith on the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and then you shall have peace. ‘Come,’ says Jesus, ‘unto me, all ye that are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.’ This speaks encouragement to all that are weary and heavy laden; but the promise of rest is made to them only upon their coming and believing, and taking him to be their God and their all. Before we can ever have peace with God, we must be justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ, we must be enabled to apply Christ to our hearts, we must have Christ brought home to our souls, so as his righteousness may be made our righteousness, so as his merits may be imputed to our souls. My dear friends, were you ever married to Jesus Christ? Did Jesus Christ ever give himself to you? Did you ever close with Christ by a lively faith, so as to feel Christ in your hearts, so as to hear him speaking peace to your souls? Did peace ever flow in upon your hearts like a river? Did you ever feel that peace that Christ spoke to his disciples? I pray God he may come and speak peace to you.
These things you must experience. I am now talking of the invisible realities of another world, of inward religion, of the work of God upon a poor sinner’s heart. I am now talking of a matter of great importance, my dear hearers; you are all concerned in it, your souls are concerned in it, your eternal salvation is concerned in it. You may be all at peace, but perhaps the devil has lulled you asleep into a carnal lethargy and security, and will endeavour to keep you there, till he get you to hell, and there you will be awakened; but it will be dreadful to be awakened and find yourselves so fearfully mistaken, when the great gulf is fixed, when you will be calling to all eternity for a drop of water to cool your tongue, and shall not obtain it.

To Those Who Have No Peace​

But what shall I say to you that have no peace with God?—and these are, perhaps, the most of this congregation; it makes me weep to think of it. Most of you, if you examine your hearts, must confess that God never yet spoke peace to you; you are children of the devil, if Christ is not in you, if God has not spoken peace to your heart. Poor soul! what a cursed condition are you in. I would not be in your case for ten-thousand, thousand worlds. Why? You are just hanging over hell. What peace can you have when God is your enemy, when the wrath of God is abiding upon your pour soul? Awake, then, you that are sleeping in a false peace, awake, ye carnal professors, ye hypocrites that go to church, receive the sacrament, read your Bibles, and have never felt the power of God upon your hearts; you that are formal professors, you that are baptized heathens; awake, awake, and do not rest on a false bottom. Blame me not for addressing myself to you; indeed, it is out of love to your souls. I see you are lingering in your Sodom, and wanting to stay there; but I come to you as the angel did to Lot, to take you by the hand. Come away, my dear brethren—fly, fly, fly for your lives to Jesus Christ, fly to a bleeding God, fly to a throne of grace; and beg of God to break your hearts, beg of God to convince you of your self-righteousness—beg of God to give you faith, and to enable you to close with Jesus Christ. O you that are secure, I must be a son of thunder to you, and O that God may awaken you, though it be with thunder; it is out of love, indeed, that I speak to you.

God’s Invitation​

Shall I prevail upon any of you this morning to come to Jesus Christ? There is a great multitude of souls here; how shortly must you all die, and go to Judgment! Even before night, or to-morrow’s night, some of you may be laid out for this kirk-yard.2 And how will you do if you be not at peace with God—if the Lord Jesus Christ has not spoken peace to your heart? If God speaks no peace to you here, you will be damned for ever. I must not flatter you, my dear friends; I will deal sincerely with your souls. Some of you may think I carry things too far. But, indeed, when you come to Judgment, you will find what I say is true, either to your eternal damnation or comfort. May God influence your hearts to come to him!

I am not willing to go away without persuading you. I cannot be persuaded but God may make use of me as a means of persuading some of you to come to the Lord Jesus Christ. O did you but feel the peace which they have that love the Lord Jesus Christ! ‘Great peace have they,’ say the psalmist, ‘that love thy Law; nothing shall offend them.’ But there is no peace to the wicked. I know what it is to live a life of sin; I was obliged to sin in order to stifle conviction. And I am sure this is the way many of you take; if you get into company, you drive off conviction. But you had better go to the bottom at once; it must be done—your wound must be searched, or you must be damned. If it were a matter of indifference, I would not speak one word about it. But you will be damned without Christ. He is the way, he is the truth, and the life. I cannot think you should go to hell without Christ. How can you dwell with everlasting burnings? How can you abide the thought of living with the devil for ever? Is it not better to have some soul-trouble here, than to be sent to hell by Jesus Christ hereafter? What is hell, but to be absent from Christ? If there were no other hell, that would be hell enough. It will be hell to be tormented with the devil for ever. Get acquaintance with God, then, and be at peace. I beseech you, as a poor worthless ambassador of Jesus Christ, that you would be reconciled to God.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

This from Whitefield specifically addresses the topic in "The Heinous Sin of profane Cursing and Swearing. (Matt. 5:34)"

Among the many heinous sins for which this nation is grown infamous, perhaps there is no one more crying, but withal more common, than the abominable custom of profane swearing and cursing. Our streets abound with persons of all degrees and qualities, who are continually provoking the holy one of Israel to anger, by their detestable oaths and blasphemies: and our very children, "out of whose mouths," the psalmist observes in his days, "was perfected praise," are now grown remarkable for the quite opposite ill quality of cursing and swearing. This cannot but be a melancholy prospect, for every sincere and honest minister of Jesus Christ, to view his fellow-creatures in; and such as will put him on contriving some means to prevent the spreading at least of so growing an evil; knowing that the Lord (without repentance) will assuredly visit for these things.

But it is time for me to proceed to give my FOURTH and last reason, why common swearing is so exceeding sinful; and that is, Because it is such an extremity of sin, that can only be matched in hell, where all are desperate, and without hope of mercy.

The damned devils, and damned souls of men in hell, may be supposed to rave and blaspheme in their torments, because they know that the chains wherein they are held, can never be knocked off; but for men that swim in the river of God's goodness, whose mercies are renewed to them every morning, and who are visited with fresh tokens of his infinite unmerited loving-kindness every moment; for these favorite creatures to set their mouths against heaven, and to blaspheme a gracious, patient, all-bountiful God; is a height of sin which exceeds the blackness and impiety of devils and hell itself.

And first then, if these things be so, and the sin of profane swearing, as hath been in some measure shown, is so exceeding sinful, what shall we say to such unhappy men, who think it not only allowable, but fashionable and polite, to "take the name of God in vain;" who imagine that swearing makes them look big among their companions, and really think it a piece of honor to abound in it? But alas! little do they think that such a behavior argues the greatest degeneracy of mind and fool-hardiness, that can possibly be thought of. For what can be more base, than one hour to pretend to adore God in public worship, and the very next moment to blaspheme his name; indeed, such a behavior, from persons who deny the being of a God, (if any such fools there be) is not altogether to much to be wondered at; but for men, who not only subscribe to the belief of a Deity, but likewise acknowledge him to be a God of infinite majesty and power; for such men to blaspheme his holy name, by profane cursing and swearing, and at the same time confess, that this very God has expressly declared, he will not hold him guiltless, but will certainly and eternally punish (without repentance) him that taketh his name in vain; is such an instance of fool-hardiness, as well as baseness, that can scarcely be paralleled. This is what they presume not to do in other cases of less danger: they dare not revile a general at the head of his army, nor rouse a sleeping lion when within reach of his paw. And is the Almighty God, the great Jehovah, the everlasting King, who can consume them by the breath of his nostrils, and frown them to hell in an instant; is he the only contemptible being in their account, that may be provoked without fear, and offended without punishment? No; though God bear long, he will not bear always; the time will come, and that too, perhaps, much sooner than such persons may expect, when God will vindicate his injured honor, when he will lay bare his almighty arm, and make those wretches feel the eternal smart of his justice, show power and name they have so often vilified and blasphemed. Alas! what will become of all their bravery then? Will they then wantonly sport with the name of their Maker, and call upon the King of all the earth to damn them any more in jest? No; their note will then be changed: indeed, they shall call, but it will be for "the rocks to fall on them, and the hills to cover them from the wrath of him that sitteth upon the throne, and from the Lamb for ever." It is true, time was when they prayed, though without thought, perhaps, for damnation both for themselves and others; and now they will find their prayers answered. "They delighted in cursing, therefore shalt it happen unto them; they loved not blessing, therefore shall it be far from them; they clothed themselves with cursing like as with a garment, and it shall come into their bowels like water, and like oil into their bones."

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Flee, therefore, from this wicked sin: look to the blood of Christ shed for it, and escape from the sure damnation of hell. You have your place with the wicked in this life, and are among them, taking pleasure with them in wickedness; such enlarges hell to open to receive you: her flames reach out to find you - for there is no shield, nor covering for your sin as long as you live in it, and presume to commit it, for "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)

You may presume a salvation that is false: for Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and his false prophets speak soothing words and comfort to your soul, saying "Peace, Peace," when there is no peace. The turmoil of your heart is caused by your sin; it does eat away at your soul as a leprosy, or a staff wound eats the flesh. Your sin reaps corruption and death, and if you take not the gift of God seriously, which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, you will receive the wages of your sin, and the damned of Sodom will have a lesser judgment, for they did not have the light you now have in this present time. And you think their sin is funny: a joke, that you can make light of sodomy, and fornication?

Accursed children ye are, if ye have believed another gospel other than that which the Apostles preached - if you've received another spirit, and bear with that, while rejecting the gospel that calls thee to repent and sin no more: ye are accursed. That's what the Word says in Galatians 1, and you see what Jesus spoke in Matthew 7, yet you allow false teachers to promote easy grace. Know this: That the gift of grace includes with it the gift of repentance, a granted repentance, and imputed righteousness, and above all the gift of the Holy Spirit, who by His very nature is HOLY: Therefore be ye holy as he who has called you is holy, and walk ye in it.

You want to talk saved by grace? Good. Titus 2:11-13
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ..."
How about the goodness of God? Romans 2:4
"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
How about hope? 1 John 3:1-3
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

It is the grace, and goodness, and hope, and love of God that brings repentance, righteousness, and godliness.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Opinions vary.

I once had an "argument" with a guy when I first moved here to the bible belt. I won't say what we disagreed on, but he was VERY angry. I don't think he'd ever even heard my position on the issue and he simply listened to nothing I had to say. He couldn't - or wouldn't - counter it. Eventually he just yelled, with a very red face and veins popping out in his neck as he lifted his large KJV (seriously), "I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!" I calmly replied, "So do I. Where we differ is in interpretation." My wife and I chose to leave that church because I would have ended up being a "divisive" member, and that is not how one shows the love of Christ. We're actually told not to do it.

I know we can't agree on everything, but sometimes there is such strong division that one must make a choice. We'd only gone there a few months and, being a small, rural Kentucky "bible belt" church, the rest of the members were lifetime members. We found a great church where we fit in just fine. They come from the position of "the more you understand scripture, the less sure you are about a lot of the "non-salvation" related beliefs. e.g. the earth is or isn't 6,000 years old. And the earth is or isn't the physical center of the universe.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Opinions vary.

I once had an "argument" with a guy when I first moved here to the bible belt. I won't say what we disagreed on, but he was VERY angry. I don't think he'd ever even heard my position on the issue and he simply listened to nothing I had to say. He couldn't - or wouldn't - counter it. Eventually he just yelled, with a very red face and veins popping out in his neck as he lifted his large KJV (seriously), "I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!" I calmly replied, "So do I. Where we differ is in interpretation." My wife and I chose to leave that church because I would have ended up being a "divisive" member, and that is not how one shows the love of Christ. We're actually told not to do it.

I know we can't agree on everything, but sometimes there is such strong division that one must make a choice. We'd only gone there a few months and, being a small, rural Kentucky "bible belt" church, the rest of the members were lifetime members. We found a great church where we fit in just fine. They come from the position of "the more you understand scripture, the less sure you are about a lot of the "non-salvation" related beliefs. e.g. the earth is or isn't 6,000 years old. And the earth is or isn't the physical center of the universe.

I agree the non salvation beliefs should not be argued over. For example, the rapture: I got saved nearly 40 years ago, and studied the Bible extensively on this matter. I've read all the various opinions on it. You can teach pretrib, mid trib, pre wrath, and post trib by taking different verses and applying them different ways.
A few years back Jesus spoke in that still small voice and said "I didn't even know, and go to Mark 13, because that's what I said." Not only does it say only the Father in heaven knows, but in Mark especially it emphasises "watch and pray for ye know not when the time is." And it even gives 4 different possible times it could be. So I can honestly say "I don't know, and neither did Jesus, so who am I to teach any specific time in relation to the tribulation?"
I do use KJV, though I don't feel it's necessary to have one that weighs in at 25 lbs! I've seen those. They are cool, but those are pulpit Bibles mainly.
Another area of argument is election vs free will. Well, both those can be taught by the scriptures, and I think they are perfectly compatible. Election and predestination is obviously taught, but for those who say you have no free will, there are passages like Rev 21:17 "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Greek thelo = to will, have in mind, intend, to choose or prefer, etc. the whosoever of John 3:16 is "pas" which is all, every, etc. Acts 17:30 God, " now commandeth all men everywhere to repent."

But when it comes to repentance and holiness there is no wiggle room. I'm not saying sinlessness because we don't get that till we are glorified in a resurrected body. However the scripture is quite clear about forsaking sin and not continuing in it. Jesus said go and sin no more. 1 John is very clear about sin. Romans as well And if we do sin, we must immediately confess to God, pray Psalm 51 or something like it, and ask for cleansing.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Eventually he just yelled, with a very red face and veins popping out in his neck as he lifted his large KJV (seriously), "I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!"

LoL !

 

[Sunflower39]

Are You Deceived?
People think they're saved, or hope they're saved, because they believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who died for their sins, but yet they are NOT saved! Why? Doesn't the Bible say just believe? Yes, but true saving belief will show fruits and requires repentance.

You think you can lust after girls, and talk all this foul nasty sex talk: this stuff's coming from your heart, and shows you ain't saved. Don't believe that, or think it's too harsh? What did Jesus say?
Matthew 15:18-20,
"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man."

If your thoughts haven't changed, and your language hasn't changed, and you're still getting off on foul dirty jokes and sexual innuendos, you're still going to hell.

Ephesians 4:29-32
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Eph. 5:3-8
"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

What's it say? Filthiness, foolish talking, and jesting. Prior to that it mentions corrupt communication out of your mouth, anger, clamour, and evil speaking. That includes talking about some girls body parts in a lustful way, or guys body parts, or homo joking. It's filthiness; it's coming from the heart, which is wicked and deceitful, and scripture says those who do such things won't inherit the kingdom of Christ and God. That means those who do this stuff are headed to hell, plain and simple.
It's not just the act of fornication and adultery and same sex that's sin: it's the mere thought of it in any lustful or lewd way. The practice of these things in any way, including inappropriate content, is a sign of an unregenerate, lost soul. God has called you to holiness, and without holiness no one shall see the Lord. (Heb 12:14)

Colossians 3:8-9, "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds..."
You know Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death? This is serious stuff man: not to be fooled around with, as this:
Matthew 5:28, "I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Take this following scripture at face value. It means what it says and says what it means:
Matthew 7:13-23,
" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So you see it's possible to "believe" in Jesus in a way, and not be saved. James says even the devils believe and they tremble. If you're to be saved you need saving faith and saving belief - and that's a faith and belief that manifests itself in actions: you will repent and turn from your sins; you should want nothing to do with sin any longer. Cry out to God for mercy and forgiveness, because if you're doing any of these things (And I did them all before myself), you're on that broad way that leads to destruction, and you seriously need to get on the narrow way that leads unto life.

Sorry to say this but these are just your interpretations which you are presenting as fact. I’m not saying I disagree with everything you have written but there can be many different ways that some of these bible verses can be interpreted but I’m sure you know that

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Sorry to say this but these are just your interpretations which you are presenting as fact. I’m not saying I disagree with everything you have written but there can be many different ways that some of these bible verses can be interpreted but I’m sure you know that

Well, when it comes to repentance, Jesus made it very clear "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3 & 5) He made it very clear about bearing fruit. No fruit, you're cast into the fire. Clear as can be. It's not open to interpretation, nor can opinion be formed about it. I did mention a couple non salvation beliefs that ARE open to different interpretations...

Since you're Anglican, I'll quote some JC Ryle here (1816-1900, Anglican Bishop)

On Conversion:
"Thousands have turned away in disgust from religion, because of the wickedness of many who profess it. Hundreds have caused the very name of conversion to stink; by the lives they have lived after declaring themselves converted. They have fancied that a few spasmodic sensations and convictions were the true grace of God. They have imagined themselves converted, because their animal feelings were excited. They have called themselves “converts” without the slightest right or title to that honored name. All this has done immense harm, and it is doing peculiar harm in the present day. The times demand a very clear assertion of the great principle, that true conversion is a thing that can always be seen."

On Sanctification:
"If the Bible be true, it is certain that unless we are sanctified, we shall not be saved. There are three things which, according to the Bible, are absolutely necessary to the salvation of every man and woman in Christendom. These three are: justification, regeneration, and sanctification. All three meet in every child of God: he is both born again, and justified, and sanctified. He that lacks any one of these three things is not a true Christian in the sight of God, and dying in that condition will not be found in heaven and glorified in the Last Day."

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Well, when it comes to repentance, Jesus made it very clear "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3 & 5) He made it very clear about bearing fruit. No fruit, you're cast into the fire. Clear as can be. It's not open to interpretation, nor can opinion be formed about it. I did mention a couple non salvation beliefs that ARE open to different interpretations...

Since you're Anglican, I'll quote some JC Ryle here (1816-1900, Anglican Bishop)

On Conversion:
"Thousands have turned away in disgust from religion, because of the wickedness of many who profess it. Hundreds have caused the very name of conversion to stink; by the lives they have lived after declaring themselves converted. They have fancied that a few spasmodic sensations and convictions were the true grace of God. They have imagined themselves converted, because their animal feelings were excited. They have called themselves “converts” without the slightest right or title to that honored name. All this has done immense harm, and it is doing peculiar harm in the present day. The times demand a very clear assertion of the great principle, that true conversion is a thing that can always be seen."

On Sanctification:
"If the Bible be true, it is certain that unless we are sanctified, we shall not be saved. There are three things which, according to the Bible, are absolutely necessary to the salvation of every man and woman in Christendom. These three are: justification, regeneration, and sanctification. All three meet in every child of God: he is both born again, and justified, and sanctified. He that lacks any one of these three things is not a true Christian in the sight of God, and dying in that condition will not be found in heaven and glorified in the Last Day."

Sometimes I think the best argument is to simply let someone who knew a lot more than me do the talking. With that said, as a rebuttal to your entire perspective in this thread I offer Paul's perspective in Galatians. It's a short read.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Sometimes I think the best argument is to simply let someone who knew a lot more than me do the talking. With that said, as a rebuttal to your entire perspective in this thread I offer Paul's perspective in Galatians. It's a short read.

Paul's perspective on?
Chapter 1 he testifies the gospel he preaches is not after man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, and he warns about another gospel.
Chapter 2 Paul deals with those who said you had to be circumcised, and with works based religion.
Chapter 3 he discusses faith, and that we are Abraham's seed.
Chapter 4 carries on the same narrative...
Chapter 5 he goes back to discussing circumcision, what true liberty is, but not to use it as an occasion to the flesh, to walk in the Spirit, and what the works of the flesh are, (and those who do them will not inherit the kingdom of God), and the fruit of the Spirit.
Chapter 6, he wraps it up, tells us to bear one another's burdens, again speaks of circumcision, and that in Christ Jesus a new creature is what matters.

I don't see how any of that is a rebuttal to what I wrote: rather, it confirms it. Now I do know a lot of people use Galatians to say we are not under law therefore we don't need to keep the 10 commandments, the moral law. That is NOT what Galatians teaches at all, because the works of the flesh are every one of them breaking one commandment or another, and Paul is very clear there as he also is in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Colossians that they who do such things are not saved. In Colossians 3 he says "mortify" those works, that is, put them to death: put off the old man, and put on the new man.
And this of course all by faith and in His grace.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Paul's perspective on?
Chapter 1 he testifies the gospel he preaches is not after man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, and he warns about another gospel.
Chapter 2 Paul deals with those who said you had to be circumcised, and with works based religion.
Chapter 3 he discusses faith, and that we are Abraham's seed.
Chapter 4 carries on the same narrative...
Chapter 5 he goes back to discussing circumcision, what true liberty is, but not to use it as an occasion to the flesh, to walk in the Spirit, and what the works of the flesh are, (and those who do them will not inherit the kingdom of God), and the fruit of the Spirit.
Chapter 6, he wraps it up, tells us to bear one another's burdens, again speaks of circumcision, and that in Christ Jesus a new creature is what matters.

I don't see how any of that is a rebuttal to what I wrote: rather, it confirms it. Now I do know a lot of people use Galatians to say we are not under law therefore we don't need to keep the 10 commandments, the moral law. That is NOT what Galatians teaches at all, because the works of the flesh are every one of them breaking one commandment or another, and Paul is very clear there as he also is in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Colossians that they who do such things are not saved. In Colossians 3 he says "mortify" those works, that is, put them to death: put off the old man, and put on the new man.
And this of course all by faith and in His grace.

You missed a few key points. If I could sum up the whole thing it would be admonishing them for falling back into works. And circumcision is but one of them. But, of course, that's just my opinion. Salvation and sanctification both have nothing at all to do with works, and that is a critical part of the message there. Of course, that doesn't mean that some will be saved, "but as through a fire" (1 Cor 3:15). So by all means, be good. Heck, even satan wants you to "be good", as long as you think it's gonna "get you into heaven". On the other hand, there may be a better motive for "being good". It has to do with loving and wanting to please your Father. But it won't get you in or out of the will.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

You missed a few key points. If I could sum up the whole thing it would be admonishing them for falling back into works. And circumcision is but one of them. But, of course, that's just my opinion. Salvation and sanctification both have nothing at all to do with works, and that is a critical part of the message there. Of course, that doesn't mean that some will be saved, "but as through a fire" (1 Cor 3:15). So by all means, be good. Heck, even satan wants you to "be good", as long as you think it's gonna "get you into heaven". On the other hand, there may be a better motive for "being good". It has to do with loving and wanting to please your Father. But it won't get you in or out of the will.

Loving and wanting to please the Father should be the greatest motivator. Obedience to His Word, as Christ was obedient, even unto the death of the cross, and did always those things pleasing in the Fathers sight.

We cannot be saved by works. I'm in total agreement with that. But I also know we are saved by Grace FOR works. Many love to quote Ephesians 2:8 & 9 without going on to verse 10 and getting the whole context:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

And of course James, faith without works is dead. We don't do them to be saved: we can't do them to be saved. But if we are saved we will do them.
"Bring forth works meet for repentance..." (Matt. 3:8) When a person truly repents there will be something to show. There'll be a difference. There will be a change.
I remember at least 5 times I said a "sinners prayer" hoping something miraculous would happen, almost like some magical thing. Then I went right out and continued my life of sin without a thought of the holiness of God. It was seed by the wayside, or maybe on the stony ground. During the 6 years when I said those prayers I was not saved, did not get saved, and was dead in my sins.

When I got saved I woke up next day and tore down all my wicked pictures from the walls, I threw out my occult writings. I smoked a joint a week later and about freaked out because the high and the Holy Spirit were incompatible. I sounded dirty and nasty to myself (or perhaps rather the Spirit) when I cussed, so over a period of 2 or 3 weeks my language completely cleaned up (Yes, some is a growth process, others is immediate). Quit smoking. Because now I KNEW they were sinful, and my desire was to no longer partake in them: I knew I must REPENT and crucify the flesh, and mortify my members.
Obedience by faith, granted by His grace.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Loving and wanting to please the Father should be the greatest motivator. Obedience to His Word, as Christ was obedient, even unto the death of the cross, and did always those things pleasing in the Fathers sight.

We cannot be saved by works. I'm in total agreement with that. But I also know we are saved by Grace FOR works. Many love to quote Ephesians 2:8 & 9 without going on to verse 10 and getting the whole context:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

And of course James, faith without works is dead. We don't do them to be saved: we can't do them to be saved. But if we are saved we will do them.
"Bring forth works meet for repentance..." (Matt. 3:8) When a person truly repents there will be something to show. There'll be a difference. There will be a change.
I remember at least 5 times I said a "sinners prayer" hoping something miraculous would happen, almost like some magical thing. Then I went right out and continued my life of sin without a thought of the holiness of God. It was seed by the wayside, or maybe on the stony ground. During the 6 years when I said those prayers I was not saved, did not get saved, and was dead in my sins.

When I got saved I woke up next day and tore down all my wicked pictures from the walls, I threw out my occult writings. I smoked a joint a week later and about freaked out because the high and the Holy Spirit were incompatible. I sounded dirty and nasty to myself (or perhaps rather the Spirit) when I cussed, so over a period of 2 or 3 weeks my language completely cleaned up (Yes, some is a growth process, others is immediate). Quit smoking. Because now I KNEW they were sinful, and my desire was to no longer partake in them: I knew I must REPENT and crucify the flesh, and mortify my members.
Obedience by faith, granted by His grace.

There is really nothing there I disagree with. Heck, when I accepted the Lord I was 27 (my family was not really religious). One of the first things I did was return the amazing full color books on WWII aircraft paint schemes back to my high school library. So our experiences were similar. I even stopped drinking for a couple of years. But that was not because I thought drinking was a sin. It was just causing me to sin. I grew up, though. Now I really love a single malt and a cigar on rare occasion.

And I had an epiphany just a couple of days ago about an odd scripture: Matthew 7:22 - On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

I always wondered why they were not "saved". Then it hit me a few days ago: What would a true believer say? We speak from the heart. These people answered with "but we did all these works!" The correct response would be, 'But didn't you say you died for my sins, and I'm saved not not of my works? But then, a true believer would not have to say that. So they revealed their hearts in their response to Jesus. They were counting on works.

I moved from Seattle to the Bible belt 13 years ago. Seattle is a fairly "unchurched" area. That is, if you talk about it at work people think you are weird, and some will report you to HR. Here in Kentucky at my first job we got a pizza party for ending some great project, and before we ate the manger prayed over the pizza! It's a different world here. But the flip side is that I've gotten to know a lot of people here that say they are Christian but you would never guess by the life they live. I mean they are more "sinful" than a lot of the agnostics I knew in Seattle. Yet many of them, if you asked why they should be let into heaven, would say they try to be a good person. Satan loves that answer, IMO.

But I keep going back to that verse in 1 Cor. Some may have very few good works and they may all be burned up, but they will be saved, as through a fire. I think of a rich father with a lot of kids and one is just a bad kid, and dad constantly has to bail him out of jail, and he knocks up random girls - but he still acknowledges that his dad is, in fact, his dad. And he may even have great consternation about being unable to control himself. And dad STILL does not write him out of the will. I see it that way. But I don't want to be that kid.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

There is really nothing there I disagree with. Heck, when I accepted the Lord I was 27 (my family was not really religious). One of the first things I did was return the amazing full color books on WWII aircraft paint schemes back to my high school library. So our experiences were similar. I even stopped drinking for a couple of years. But that was not because I thought drinking was a sin. It was just causing me to sin. I grew up, though. Now I really love a single malt and a cigar on rare occasion.

And I had an epiphany just a couple of days ago about an odd scripture: Matthew 7:22 - On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

I always wondered why they were not "saved". Then it hit me a few days ago: What would a true believer say? We speak from the heart. These people answered with "but we did all these works!" The correct response would be, 'But didn't you say you died for my sins, and I'm saved not not of my works? But then, a true believer would not have to say that. So they revealed their hearts in their response to Jesus. They were counting on works.

I moved from Seattle to the Bible belt 13 years ago. Seattle is a fairly "unchurched" area. That is, if you talk about it at work people think you are weird, and some will report you to HR. Here in Kentucky at my first job we got a pizza party for ending some great project, and before we ate the manger prayed over the pizza! It's a different world here. But the flip side is that I've gotten to know a lot of people here that say they are Christian but you would never guess by the life they live. I mean they are more "sinful" than a lot of the agnostics I knew in Seattle. Yet many of them, if you asked why they should be let into heaven, would say they try to be a good person. Satan loves that answer, IMO.

But I keep going back to that verse in 1 Cor. Some may have very few good works and they may all be burned up, but they will be saved, as through a fire. I think of a rich father with a lot of kids and one is just a bad kid, and dad constantly has to bail him out of jail, and he knocks up random girls - but he still acknowledges that his dad is, in fact, his dad. And he may even have great consternation about being unable to control himself. And dad STILL does not write him out of the will. I see it that way. But I don't want to be that kid.

I got same on Matthew 7 awhile back. They say "have not WE, in your name." Kind of like the 7 sons of Sceva who said "I command you in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches." They don't own Christ, or Christ don't own them: it's not a relationship with the indwelling Holy Spirit received by being born again.
I know Seattle is fairly unchurched, and many churches are super liberal. I did go once to a Messianic church in either Everett or Mt Vernon, forget which. It was a great service and they sang lots of scriptural songs & Psalms with Hebrew beat. That was in the 90s though. I went to an SDA church a few times up near Bellingham, and another church that was, well, Methodist, but not what John Wesley or George Whitefield ever preached!
So thankfully you were not in Seattle for the civil war of 2020. Neither was I, but I did a lot of praying for people I used to know in that area.