Are we required to forgive?

[faithfulchild]

And thank you for that, faithfulchild...In the prayer that Christ Himself taught us we are to forgive as we want to be forgiven...not as Christ forgives.

Amen!

You are welcome ZooMom! The Golden Rule is another thought that comes to mind..."Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Wow! I know that can be so hard to do.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Adultery is a pretty grave thing. It's in many ways the ultimate betrayal of trust. If I had a wife, I think I'd rather she stab him in the back and stand over me and watch me bleed to death than cheat on me with another man. That sounds kind of extreme, but it's my gut reaction when I think of how I'd feel if something like that happened to me.

And even when the person who did this thing repents, and the other person forgives and tries to move past it. Even then there has still been a trust and a bond broken that is difficult to repair. The wronged person always wonders "Was I not good enough? Will she (or he) do it again? Is that person really at the store, with a friend, or working late as he or she claims? Or having sex with someone else?". A lot of the love and the intimacy and trust and the sense of oneness that a marriage has is shattered by these sorts of betrayals -- one's spouse is becoming one with somebody else.

Remember, the only exception Jesus gave to forbidding divorce was in cases of infidelity. So, even from a Christian perspective, this is something that is right up there among the worst things you can do to someone.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't forgive, but I think it does mean that it's understandably going to be difficult for folks, and it probably should be. This isn't about some simple thing. Even for children and others, it isn't a simple thing. So while I think the original poster is probably correct that her sister theoretically should forgive, I don't blame her for not doing so.

 

[Veritas]

And don't be holdin' your breath for that repentance either, cause it's a long time coming. I was just posting out of concern for your soul, but it seems you've thrown that to the wind so alls I can do is shake the dust from my sandals at this point. Jason ain't God you know, though I realize he does think that he is.

Ok, so both you and Jason think I'm going to the bad place now. And you're right, some folks do have a god-complex. What an awful burden.

It's quite a high pedestal that we put our parents on for the most part...even, maybe especially, when we are grown. To find out that they have faults and failings like normal humans is hard to acknowledge for alot of people. Particularly if they always had a Norman Rockwellish pisture of their parents relationship...whether it was true or not.

I'm sorry for the pain your family is going through and will keep you all in prayer.

Once again, on the money. I appreciate your prayers and hugs. They are quite needed, I assure you.

Adultery is a pretty grave thing. It's in many ways the ultimate betrayal of trust. If I had a wife, I think I'd rather she stab him in the back and stand over me and watch me bleed to death than cheat on me with another man. That sounds kind of extreme, but it's my gut reaction when I think of how I'd feel if something like that happened to me.

And even when the person who did this thing repents, and the other person forgives and tries to move past it. Even then there has still been a trust and a bond broken that is difficult to repair. The wronged person always wonders "Was I not good enough? Will she (or he) do it again? Is that person really at the store, with a friend, or working late as he or she claims? Or having sex with someone else?". A lot of the love and the intimacy and trust and the sense of oneness that a marriage has is shattered by these sorts of betrayals -- one's spouse is becoming one with somebody else.

Remember, the only exception Jesus gave to forbidding divorce was in cases of infidelity. So, even from a Christian perspective, this is something that is right up there among the worst things you can do to someone.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't forgive, but I think it does mean that it's understandably going to be difficult for folks, and it probably should be. This isn't about some simple thing. Even for children and others, it isn't a simple thing. So while I think the original poster is probably correct that her sister theoretically should forgive, I don't blame her for not doing so.

FYI, my mom has not slept with another guy, just had a very close friendship. But I still consider that infidelity And my parents are still not divorced but will be and then my mom will marry this guy. At any rate, I know that men consider that the worst thing. More men will leave their wives for reasons of adultry then the other way around. It's always been that way. Not sure why other than the fact that women are traditionally dependent on their husbands for their survival then vice versa.

 

[faithfulchild]

Veritas...I am sooo sorry about your family situation. Try to lift your parents and sibblings up to the Lord. I know this is not an easy thing to do when one is hurting and frustrated with the whole scenerio. Yet as we know only God can change the ways of others. I will keep you all in my prayers.

 

[MikeK]

Want my real, sincere opinion?

I would hate my siblings if I judged them on what they said and did. When I remember that we're 4 very different people, with different experiences, expectations, opinions and whatnot, we get along fabulously. If I were you I'd try to focus more on loving your siblings as they are, where they are, then worrying about which of them is treating mom and dad the way you want them to. Each of you would be wise (in my estimation) to do what you think is right re your parents, and try not to dwell on what the others think.

 

[Veritas]

Want my real, sincere opinion?

I would hate my siblings if I judged them on what they said and did. When I remember that we're 4 very different people, with different experiences, expectations, opinions and whatnot, we get along fabulously. If I were you I'd try to focus more on loving your siblings as they are, where they are, then worrying about which of them is treating mom and dad the way you want them to. Each of you would be wise (in my estimation) to do what you think is right re your parents, and try not to dwell on what the others think.

I appreciate your "sincere opinion" for a change. Thanks.

We're actually not concerned so much with what others think as in what they do. When it gets to the point of people trying to manipulate situations and control who gets invited where when it's not even their home, then we're talking something else entirely. Now, what people do has "unintended consequences" that hurt a lot of others. That's where the problem comes in. I don't believe it's up to any of us to judge, condemn or punish either of our parents. Those are best left up to God. Therefore, I've advocated not taking sides.

 

[geocajun]

oh, who made you the mediator of the holy smackrament anyways?

Jesus

 

[geocajun]

And thank you for that, faithfulchild...In the prayer that Christ Himself taught us we are to forgive as we want to be forgiven...not as Christ forgives.

Christ teaches us how to forgive. The bottom line is that he hasn't asked us to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He tells us to be perfect as he is perfect.

 

[geocajun]

You sound more like my sister. FWIW, my mom has apologized and expressed her sorrow. Why is that not good enough? Because my dad's upset? He's just as much at fault as my mom. There are no innocent parties here. Has my dad apologized? No, yet they side with him.

If someone has sincerely apologized, then we MUST forgive them. That is out of scripture, and that is the example Jesus gives us. We pray that we be forgiven as we forgive others. If we do not forgive them when they are sorry, how can we expect that from our Lord? We can't.
BUT, if they aren't sorry, then you aren't required to forgive them. It is soooo important for ones mental health and sense of justice that this point be realized.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I have found that it's a whole lot easier to forgive someone if I don't have to see them very often. How feasible is it that you can avoid your sister for the rest of your life? Nah, just kidding. Well, no actually, if there is a feasible way that could reduce the time you spend with her, to allow for hard feelings to subside and healing to begin, it's really not a bad idea. For some people it's not a practical thing though, and having to explain why you need the distance could make matters worse than they already are.

 

[Fantine]

St. Anthony Messenger had a beautiful story about Imaculee Ilibagiza this month. She is a Rwandan refugee who hid in a bathroom for 91 days when the Hutus were slaughtering the Tutsis in the 1990's--she lost her mother, father, brother, and sister in the genocide. Only one brother, at university in another African country, survived.

Whenever she found herself overwhelmed with thoughts of hate and revenge, she reflected anew upon Jesus’ sufferings.
“If Jesus was dying for everybody, he was dying for even the killers,” she reflected. As the killers continued to stalk her and her friends, she latched on to the recorded words of Jesus before his death on the cross: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34).
The prayers of the Rosary, particularly the line in the Lord’s Prayer calling upon Christians to forgive those who do wrong to them, resonated throughout her tribulations.

Ilibagiza, now married to a United Nations employee and living on Long Island, NY, gives talks around the in the US and around the world about the need for forgiveness and reconciliation.

I do hope some of you will read the article.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jan2008/Feature1.asp

My own feelings about forgiveness changed when I read an interview with Sister Helen Prejean. She asserted that failure to forgive hurts the victim far more than the victimizer, and that it forgiveness is necessary for our mental health so that we can move forward with our lives.

It is easier to forgive when you realize that it is something positive you are doing for yourself than when you think of it as a painful sacrifice....

 

[Fish and Bread]

Ok, so both you and Jason think I'm going to the bad place now. And you're right, some folks do have a god-complex. What an awful burden.



Once again, on the money. I appreciate your prayers and hugs. They are quite needed, I assure you.



FYI, my mom has not slept with another guy, just had a very close friendship. But I still consider that infidelity And my parents are still not divorced but will be and then my mom will marry this guy. At any rate, I know that men consider that the worst thing. More men will leave their wives for reasons of adultry then the other way around. It's always been that way. Not sure why other than the fact that women are traditionally dependent on their husbands for their survival then vice versa.

As I think about this more and more, I think the point may not be whether your sibling is right or wrong, but whether your sibling's reaction to what's going on with your parents is understandable. I think it is understandable. So, even if it's the wrong reaction, maybe it's worthwhile to step into the sibling's world view for a minute and try to be understanding of an understandable reaction. You can hold yourself to a higher standard, but not everyone will meet our own personal standards for conduct. Sometimes even we ourselves don't meet our own standards, and they're our standards.

For what it's worth, in your shoes I'd take care to maintain my relationship with my sibling and see the person when I could. Maybe you go with the rest of your family for each holiday or whatever, but then have a little get-to-gether with your sibling (and spouse, if applicable) on the weekend following or preceding. There are technically twelve days of Christmas and all that. Don't let your sibling take you away from your family, but at the same time there's no reason you can't have two Christmas dinners, with the larger family on the 25th and then with the sibling sometime thereafter.

It may come to that anyway. Your father may eventually feel uncomfortable sharing holiday diners with his wife and the man she left him for. And it may even come to a point where your father remarries and your mother is also uncomfortable. So, two family dinners with different parts of the family may become a fact of life at some point. To put a positive spin on it, you might try to think of it as twice as much turkey and merriment.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Matthew 18
33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.





Anyway, Veritas, this is all new...and so many things are in high conflict right now..[to which i am sorry]
for everyone...

I will pray for your family and your parents.

 

[D'Ann]

Actually, it's a situation with my mom and sister. Yes, my mom did do wrong by committing adultry, but punishing her solves nothing. My sis think it's her job to act as judge and jury by condemning her. Consequently, I had a rather lousy Christmas. Interestingly, none of my other siblings feels as she does. She just can't get past the sin and love the sinner.

Hi Veritas,

Sometimes, I think children (all ages) see their parents as being somewhat perfect. We look up to our parents to lead us and guide us and to love us unconditionally and it is so easy to not realize that our parents are very much human... flesh and blood with their own heart ache and pain and disappointments and struggles and imperfections... maybe different than us, but we all have our heart ache and pain and disappointments and struggles and we all make mistakes in one way or another... but as children, we don't see our parents this way some times and so when something happens as it has happened with your parents... it does cause a lot of different emotions... Your sister is probably very shocked and hurt and angry... which is all apart of grieving for a huge loss. She is wrong to hurt yours and her mom. And deep down inside her heart she probably knows that she is wrong to plot and plan to manipulate various situations as to who should be invited or not invited... she probably knows down deep in her heart that it is wrong not to forgive her mom... but she is probably soooo hurt and angry and disappointed that she can't help herself at the moment. She needs time to grieve... to work through the shock and hurt... anger... disappointment... and in time, with God's grace, she will come around and she will forgive her mom. It takes time for some of us to work through things.

I know it is not easy to forgive your sister for your sister's lack of compassion and ability to forgive your mom... all you can do is pray for your sister and if you can... take a break from her. Your whole family is grieving. Divorce is a huge loss for all families and each family has to work through the process and realize that there are grieving stages.

I pray this is helpful... and you and your sister and mom and family are very much in my prayers.

God's Peace,

Debbie

 

[HisKid1973]

Is your sister basing all this according to 1 Cor. 5:9-15 in regards to separation? Have you sat down and had a heart to heart about this with another spiritually mature believer, pastor/ elder ect.

 

[Veritas]

If someone has sincerely apologized, then we MUST forgive them. That is out of scripture, and that is the example Jesus gives us. We pray that we be forgiven as we forgive others. If we do not forgive them when they are sorry, how can we expect that from our Lord? We can't.
BUT, if they aren't sorry, then you aren't required to forgive them. It is soooo important for ones mental health and sense of justice that this point be realized.

Jason, how do you know if someone is truly sorry? That is the point, really. That's one of the reason's why we are not to judge. Only God can know the heart of another. But we are to always give the other the benefit of the doubt. In the end, God will sort things out.

I have found that it's a whole lot easier to forgive someone if I don't have to see them very often. How feasible is it that you can avoid your sister for the rest of your life? Nah, just kidding. Well, no actually, if there is a feasible way that could reduce the time you spend with her, to allow for hard feelings to subside and healing to begin, it's really not a bad idea. For some people it's not a practical thing though, and having to explain why you need the distance could make matters worse than they already are.

I would love to distance myself from my sis. But she has 7 kids whom I'm very close to. I would just die without them in my life. I think she knows this with all of us. Sadly, some people use their kids as pawns in their own game of manipulation. I'n not saying this is the case, but clearly her in-laws, my mom and other siblings, feel we have to always bow to their wishes just to maintain access to the kids.

It is easier to forgive when you realize that it is something positive you are doing for yourself than when you think of it as a painful sacrifice....

I read her Rwandan woman's book about a year ago. It touched me deeply. If someone who went through what she went through can forgive those who have not apologized nor repented, then so can we.

For what it's worth, in your shoes I'd take care to maintain my relationship with my sibling and see the person when I could. Maybe you go with the rest of your family for each holiday or whatever, but then have a little get-to-gether with your sibling (and spouse, if applicable) on the weekend following or preceding. There are technically twelve days of Christmas and all that. Don't let your sibling take you away from your family, but at the same time there's no reason you can't have two Christmas dinners, with the larger family on the 25th and then with the sibling sometime thereafter.

It may come to that anyway. Your father may eventually feel uncomfortable sharing holiday diners with his wife and the man she left him for. And it may even come to a point where your father remarries and your mother is also uncomfortable. So, two family dinners with different parts of the family may become a fact of life at some point. To put a positive spin on it, you might try to think of it as twice as much turkey and merriment.

Well, there's plenty of blame, hurt, discomfort and anger to go around. I think people for a few times a year should set aside their differences and celebrate holidays, etc. without trying to manipulate things.

Anyway, Veritas, this is all new...and so many things are in high conflict right now..[to which i am sorry]
for everyone...

I will pray for your family and your parents.

Thanks, Dear! I appreciate your prayers.

Hi Veritas,

Sometimes, I think children (all ages) see their parents as being somewhat perfect. We look up to our parents to lead us and guide us and to love us unconditionally and it is so easy to not realize that our parents are very much human... flesh and blood with their own heart ache and pain and disappointments and struggles and imperfections... maybe different than us, but we all have our heart ache and pain and disappointments and struggles and we all make mistakes in one way or another... but as children, we don't see our parents this way some times and so when something happens as it has happened with your parents... it does cause a lot of different emotions... Your sister is probably very shocked and hurt and angry... which is all apart of grieving for a huge loss. She is wrong to hurt yours and her mom. And deep down inside her heart she probably knows that she is wrong to plot and plan to manipulate various situations as to who should be invited or not invited... she probably knows down deep in her heart that it is wrong not to forgive her mom... but she is probably soooo hurt and angry and disappointed that she can't help herself at the moment. She needs time to grieve... to work through the shock and hurt... anger... disappointment... and in time, with God's grace, she will come around and she will forgive her mom. It takes time for some of us to work through things.

I know it is not easy to forgive your sister for your sister's lack of compassion and ability to forgive your mom... all you can do is pray for your sister and if you can... take a break from her. Your whole family is grieving. Divorce is a huge loss for all families and each family has to work through the process and realize that there are grieving stages.

I pray this is helpful... and you and your sister and mom and family are very much in my prayers.

God's Peace,

Debbie

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you're right about some not being able to forgive and move on. Also, I think my sister believes she is doing right and feels justified in her actions. I would like to ask her what was gained in all of this. What purpose was served?

Is your sister basing all this according to 1 Cor. 5:9-15 in regards to separation? Have you sat down and had a heart to heart about this with another spiritually mature believer, pastor/ elder ect.

I don't know. But I think that passage would have to be misinterpreted to justify her behavior. I have reason to believe she has talked to her pastor, though. Luckily for him, he's not a member of our family....he doesn't have to live with the consequences. As a result, my mom wouldn't go to their church on Christmas Eve. I mean this is proof positive that shunning someone doesn't lead them closer to Christ...even if done in His name.

 

[geocajun]

Jason, how do you know if someone is truly sorry? That is the point, really. That's one of the reason's why we are not to judge. Only God can know the heart of another. But we are to always give the other the benefit of the doubt. In the end, God will sort things out.

You can judge that. If you don't believe someone is sorry, then tell them that. If you are being honest about it and sincerely believe that they aren't sorry, then there is no reason why you must forgive them.
They should be given the benefit of any doubt though.
We are judging someone to heaven or hell by our forgiveness.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I would love to distance myself from my sis. But she has 7 kids whom I'm very close to. I would just die without them in my life. I think she knows this with all of us. Sadly, some people use their kids as pawns in their own game of manipulation. I'n not saying this is the case, but clearly her in-laws, my mom and other siblings, feel we have to always bow to their wishes just to maintain access to the kids.

It's really too bad that you have to play those games. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just say to her : 'sis, I think you and I both know theres some tension between us right now and I think it would really help our relationship in the long run if we distanced ourselves from each other for awhile. I'd still love to see the kids and would like to set up a schedule whearby I could pick them up at regular intervals, etc.. etc... and by the way I love you too and I think it would be beneficial to us in the long run if we both had some time away from eachother to come to a more objective view of things"

Healthy, theoretical stuff like that never works. Families are too complicated I guess.

 

[D'Ann]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think you're right about some not being able to forgive and move on. Also, I think my sister believes she is doing right and feels justified in her actions.

At the moment, I'm sure she does. But down deep in her heart and sub-conscious, she knows better. She is reacting out of hurt and anger and probably many other mixed emotions, and in time, the hurt and anger and these other emotions will subside and she will grow to miss her mom and the warmth of her mom's love. In time, she will forgive. Life lessons teach us so many things and eventually, we do learn to forgive situations and those who we feel have hurt us or wronged us... Time and prayer is a key factor.

I would like to ask her what was gained in all of this. What purpose was served?

Those are good questions which she probably will give you angry answers to. But in time, when she starts to heal, her answers would be more rationale.

 

[HisKid1973]

Sis , I think the apostle Paul would disagree with you or they wouldn't have initiated it to protect the sheep in the church....I know for you this is personal but if your mom is a believer and part of a local ecclesia, they would be responsible to deal with this as it is an active situation...To condone her actions would be to say it's ok, you can do what you want we still love you...Even tho no sex physical sex has happened you have no idea what her thought life is..Does she plan to persue this relationship or has she repented..See there is a much wide sphere in operation here than just you and your sis..It would be nice if she could post her side of the story..There are two things in play here and I guess we are speaking to each one..One with your moms situation and one with you and you sister..

Anyway it is sad to have this happen and we all should keep you and your family in prayers for reconciliation for you all..Just don't let this turn into a root of bitterness for you..shalom..kim