Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[Kepha]

To my understading we have those who Christ took with Him when He ascended to heaven, who were risen from the grave when He rose.

Ok so you believe any Christian after that particular event is not in Heaven nor is even existing at the moment? I'm curious why you would believe God would take some to Heaven while not take the rest?

 

[Stryder06]

Ok so you believe any Christian after that particular event is not in Heaven nor is even existing at the moment? I'm curious why you would believe God would take some to Heaven while not take the rest?

I already explained that. They were a type of first fruits offering.

Why would God take Enoch to heaven but none of His contemporaries?
Why did God take Elijah but allow Elisha to die? Why did God take Moses and not Joshua too?

Why didn't all the saints come forth from the grave instead of just some? I don't know why other then because He wanted to.

 

[Stryder06]

Can you give me a Scripture verse on this 144,000 because all I can remember about that is in the Orthodox perspective book on the end times called Ultimate Things which points out the 144,000 as the number of Jews that become believers in Christ...finally realize He is God.

Revelation 7 - Passage Lookup - New International Version, ©2010 - BibleGateway.com

Pay particular attention to verses 9-14

 

[RibI]

Ok so you believe any Christian after that particular event is not in Heaven nor is even existing at the moment? I'm curious why you would believe God would take some to Heaven while not take the rest?

Where did you get that idea?
God has not taken anyone to Heaven.

 

[Stryder06]

I never said that!

"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deut 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."

Like I said, the Lord Himself buried Moses. Jesus wasn't born for over a millenium later. (Sorry for the confusion)

Thanks for the verse

 

[RibI]

Technically you are correct but your answer is deceptive. Only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah, from which the name Jew is derived. But usually in modern speech "Jew" refers to any descendant of Israel. The remainder of the 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the remaining tribes of Israel.

"Modern speech" does not make it so and it hides a lot of truth.
Shortly after Solomon Israel and Judah became two seperate nations.
Isreal was taken captive about 120 years before Judah was and Israel never returned. They became known as the "lost ten tribes."
Most of the prophecies about Israel are for those people, whoever they are and wherever they are today.
My answer is anything but deceptive.

 

[razeontherock]

Your answer is intentionally deceptive. Jewish refers to all 12 tribes. Since you know you mean Judah, you should say so, and make sure your audience understands what you imply.

You are allowed to remain anti-semitic if you insist, but dragging people along unknowingly is simply wrong.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm saying that the individuals who were raise when Christ was raised were raised with their glorified bodies and were taken to heaven.

Ok, to bring me back to where we are on this....apparently the time away and eating dinner has made my mind a bit mushy. lol Are we talking about those who were released from the tombs after Christ's ressurection? Please excuse my confusion and such. I don't mean to be such a frustration here.

Ok, well if being spiritual death is actual death of the soul, wouldn't that mean that Adam and Eve were essentially walking shells, if their souls are what died when they ate from the tree? And if this is the case wouldn't that mean people were born damned, since as Raze understands Paul's words, we were all spiritually dead before coming to Christ?

Well, this is the way I understand it, Stryder, on Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were not created to die (spiritually or physically). It happened after they chose to disobey Him through pride (it's got to be the worst sin out there!), and God had warned them about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge because it would lead to their death. Well, once they sinned by disobeying Him, death entered the world, and it entered by unnaturally separating the spirit (and soul, as the soul is the vehicle for the spirit) from the body at our time of earthily death, and we then had the inclination to sin. So, we are no guilty of Adam's sin, but we inherited death from Adam - and that would entail spiritual and physical, I believe, but only if one didn't repent and ask forgiveness to God and work on being a better servant to Him, which is what Adam and Eve did after the Fall. They were very repentent, and all at that time, even the prophets, ended up in Sheol because the veil in the temple had not been torn, nor had Christ come Incarnate yet to break that veil and restore our original uniting with God, back to our original state before the Fall, which is what we work towards in growing in Him. So, they were indeed in the tombs conscience even then, but inside the tomb with their bodies because Christ hadn't come yet, so they were not reconciled to Him and reunited spiritually. We know they were conscious and also knew what was going on by the example in the Scriptures about Rachel crying for her children that were being killed by Herod. She was very much alive because the Spirit God breathed into them does not die in the believer. It is eternally there because God is eternal.

So, when Christ descended to hades, he broke the chains there and bounded Satan (Satan was taken aback and unprepared for Christ's descension), and released those waiting in the tombs, including Adam and Eve and the prophets - all the righteous in the OT were then taken to Paradise.

 

[Der Alte]

"Modern speech" does not make it so and it hides a lot of truth.
Shortly after Solomon Israel and Judah became two seperate nations.
Isreal was taken captive about 120 years before Judah was and Israel never returned. They became known as the "lost ten tribes."
Most of the prophecies about Israel are for those people, whoever they are and wherever they are today.
My answer is anything but deceptive.

Your lecture on "modern speech" is irrelevant! When the average person is talking to another average person now, today and says "Jew" the majority of people will understand def. # 3, 4. That is the situation I was responding to. A scholar speaking to students or other scholars may mean either 1 or 2. So the chances of your answer being wrong/deceptive is 3:1.

Definition of JEW
1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : israelite
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism​

​

 

[RibI]

Your lecture on "modern speech" is irrelevant! When the average person is talking to another average person now, today and says "Jew" the majority of people will understand def. # 3, 4. That is the situation I was responding to. A scholar speaking to students or other scholars may mean either 1 or 2. So the chances of your answer being wrong/deceptive is 3:1.

Definition of JEW
​

1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : israelite
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism
​

Oh please. That is so weak it's just silly. That is just making an excuse for ignorance.
That's the same kind of reasoning people use to excuse themselves for following the traditions of men rather than the law of God.

 

[Dorothea]

Revelation 7 - Passage[bless and do not curse]Lookup - New International Version, ©2010 - BibleGateway.com

Pay particular attention to verses 9-14

Ok.

Anyhow, here's what it says in my OSB on what that means (we don't read Revelation at our services and is rarely preached or taught about. There are some books on it, which I read one that I really thought was very good. I think the closest we get to talking about or hearing or reading about Revelation is in our bridegroom services during Holy Week).

Rev. 7:9-14 The scene shifts to heaven, where an innumerable multitude from all nations worships before the throne of God. Their white robes and palm branches (v. 9) symbolize purity and victory. The vast mutitude represents either the entire faithful Church--which lives in the spirit of its baptism (washed...in the blood of the Lamb, v. 14)--or the righteous from all nations who were not members of the "12 x 12 x 1000," old covenant Israel and the Church. These pass victoriously through the great tribulation to inherit the Kingdom.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh please. That is so weak it's just silly. That is just making an excuse for ignorance.
That's the same kind of reasoning people use to excuse themselves for following the traditions of men rather than the law of God.

This is a typical of you, and other members of post 19th century false religious groups. When evidence is produced which proves you wrong, then you resort to insults and name calling "weak,""silly,""ignorance","excuse themselves,""traditions of men," etc. As I said, and proved from the dictionary definition, when most people hear the word "Jew" they understand any Israelite, regardless of tribal descent, or any practitioner of the Jewish faith. Usually only scholars make the distinction that a "Jew" is only a member of the tribe of Judah. The only circumstance I can think of where the average person would immediately understand "Jew" being a member of the tribe of Judah is if someone says something to the effect, "this person was a Jew, not a Danite," etc.

 

[razeontherock]

I wouldn't expect too many to recognize Danite as someone from the tribe of Dan, either.

 

[Der Alte]

I wouldn't expect too many to recognize Danite as someone from the tribe of Dan, either.

If they understand Judah as a tribe they likely understand Dan. I tried Benjamin but my spell checker wouldn't recognize it with the -ite suffix. At any rate making an issue out of Jew/Judah was misleading or deceptive.

 

[razeontherock]

Right! If you mean Judah, say Judah.

 

[RND]

That is not a Christian teaching.

Correct. Current Christian teaching that is the majority view is one that teaches man is immortal.

The immortal soul was given when man was created.

If man is immortal by nature then why Jesus?

 

[RND]

Few Christians understand what the spirit in man is. The spirit in man is what makes him different to the animals.

The Bible would seem to disagree with you Gary.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

 

[Timothew]

We also know from the bible that we wait in our graves until resurrection day. Peter said this:
"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . For it was not David who ascended into heaven. . . "(Acts 2:29 and 34 NASB)

I am telling you what Jesus said, "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 5:28,29 and 6:40)
If Jesus will raise everyone who believes in Him on the last day, how is it that some of you are saying that dead people are in heaven before the last day? If the faithful are in heaven, why is David still dead, buried and in his tomb? Why didn't poor King David get to go to heaven?

 

[Howard Cneal]

The dead cannot cease to exist completely since they are spirits. Spirits are made in the image of God, from His breath, and are inherently everlasting. I am honestly amazed that believers even think otherwise.

If you don't believe in immortal souls or spirits, then why believe in an unseen, eternal, spirit we call God? It doesn't make any sense, really. Both are largely unseen and ethereal, yet we believe God is real. Why not use the faith to believe in human spirits?

Honestly, it just blows my mind to think that there are believers who go around believing they are nothing more than a rotting sack of flesh.

 

[Timothew]

The dead cannot cease to exist completely since they are spirits. Spirits are made in the image of God, from His breath, and are inherently everlasting. I am honestly amazed that believers even think otherwise.

If you don't believe in immortal souls or spirits, then why believe in an unseen, eternal, spirit we call God? It doesn't make any sense, really. Both are largely unseen and ethereal, yet we believe God is real. Why not use the faith to believe in human spirits?

Honestly, it just blows my mind to think that there are believers who go around believing they are nothing more than a rotting sack of flesh.

I know! It's mind boggling! And yet I just told you what the bible says, what Peter says, and what Jesus says, and you don't believe it. I too am honestly amazed.