Are the dead conscious and do the continue to exist?

[razeontherock]

Lol! That's it? That's you're argument?

Forgive me...

Doesn't address Adam and Eve dying in the day they eat of it so well, does it?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Ummm. A fan of semantics.

You would know...

Let me explain something to you. The verse that you cling to has been mistranslated..... I have told you the correct translation is BEGOTTEN not BORN.

Now let me show you how easy it is for mistanslations to occur with the words relating to BORN, BEGOTTEN, BEGAT... and so on.....<snip>

 

[RibI]

I'm sorry, but that's the impression you gave me in your post. You don't believe in the immortal soul that God gave us. What was I to think?

If you had ever read the Bible instead of listening to what people say it says
you would know you don't have an "immortal soul".
There is no such concept in the Bible.

 

[Dorothea]

If you had ever read the Bible instead of listening to what people say it says
you would know you don't have an "immortal soul".
There is no such concept in the Bible.

I read the Bible every day, but thanks for the advice. I would suggest that whatever you read in the Bible is your understanding. That doesn't mean it is correct.

Just my own personal opinion on the immortality of the soul, ok? Well, if we are immortal, we do not have eternal life with Christ because are dead, spiritually and physically. We're done. But I think we had an immortal soul from the beginning...starting with Adam and Eve. Because they never spiritually died. They were in Sheol waiting for Christ to come, die on the cross, resurrect and release them from Sheol and conquer death.

God made our souls immortal from the start. He breathed life in us. Just thinking on this. I'm wondering if you and others here understand the difference between spiritual death and physical death.

Here's the Scriptures that talk about the spirit/soul living on after the body physically dies and the soul departs this earth to be with God (or in Hades). The body lies "dead" (in the tomb awaiting His Second Coming, but the soul/spirit is in Paradise in the presence of Christ.

Hosea 13:14 "I will deliver them out of the hand of Hades and will redeem them from death. Where is your penalty, O death? O Hades, where is your sting? Pity is hidden from my eyes."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth as it was, 8 And the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient...

4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to God in the Spirit.

While pondering, I found an interesting read:

Men have condemned God to death; God, however, has by His Resurrection "sentenced" men to immortality. In return for their buffets, He offers embraces; for their insults, blessings; for death, immortality. Never have men shown such enmity for God as when they crucified Him; and never has God shown such love for men as He did in resurrecting. Men wish to render God mortal, but God by His Resurrection designed to make men immortal. The crucified God resurrected and overcame death. Death is no more. Immortality has overtaken man and the whole of his world.​

Through the Resurrection of the God-Man, the nature of man has been led irrevocably to the path of immortality, and death has thus become fearful. For, before the Resurrection of Christ, death was something feared by man; but after the Resurrection of the Lord, man has become something fearful for death. If a man lives in Faith within the Resurrected God-Man, he lives above death. He stands impregnable by death. Death is transformed into a "footstool beneath his feet": "O death, where is thy victory? O Hades, where is thy sting?" (I Corinthians 15:55). Therefore, when a man in Christ breathes his last, he sheds only the shell of his body, to be clothed with it once again on the day of the Second Coming. ​

​

Saint Spyridon Orthodox Church​

 

[Dorothea]

Incidentally, I read about man and animals and the differences in their souls and such a year or so ago. It was quite fascinating and interesting. Here's what it says on this matter:

God created only man in "His Image." What is the image of God? It is the direct reflection of all God's attributes. Man bears the image of God in the higher qualities of the soul, such as the soul's immortality, freedom of will, reason, the capacity for pure love, and spiritual power.

While according to physical ability man is among the weakest of the creatures in the universe, only he has the gift of a spiritual nature. Man's soul is immortal not by its nature, but by the Grace of God. God is Spirit; therefore, the image of God can be seen only in the soul, not in the body. Man was created of earthly body and spiritual soul as the crown of the universe. (Ps. 8:5b) Man's physical body was created to serve his spiritual life. It is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Thus, the body participates in all the life-giving energies of Christ.

"Man was created immortal in his soul, and he could have remained immortal also in body if he had not fallen away from God. The Wisdom of Solomon says: God did not make death (Wis. 1:13). Man's body, as was well expressed by Blessed Augustine, does not possess the "impossibility of dying," but it did possess "the possibility of not dying," which it has now lost. The writer of Genesis informs us that this "possibility of not dying" was maintained in Paradise by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life, of which our first ancestors were deprived after they were banished from Paradise." Michael Pomazansky, author of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology.

Of all the things that God created, there is nothing closer to Him, nothing superior to the human soul. Even the moon, sun, stars, and animals are inferior to a single human soul.

What is the soul? The soul is a living incorporeal essence, not of the body. The soul is the inward part of man. It is a spirit similar to the angels and demons, who are spirits.

The soul is immortal: it does not die, but returns to God. This aspect of the soul's nature is not inherent, but is a gift of God's grace. This souls is the life of the body, and the spirit is the life of the soul; it is the higher part of the soul, capable of apprehending God.

The spirit is the highest part of man's soul, which is formed through the grace of the Holy Spirit. It is the organ through which man apprehends God, through which man's living bond with God is established in the soul. The activity of the spirit takes place mainly in the heart, and man's conscience is the result of its action. (cf. Romans 2:15) Therefore the basic manifestations of the spirit are freedom and conscience. The organ of the spirit is the intellect.

When the Holy Spirit purifies our whole being, we become His dwelling places. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom. 8:14) When a man is reborn by the Holy Spirit, he cultivates within himself the seeds of grace until he brings forth fruits of the Spirit.

The soul is the vehicle of the Holy Spirit, which gives it spiritual life. guided by the Holy Spirit, the body is able through the senses to use all of creation and all of Holy Scripture to rise step by stem from the seen to the unseen. Through our mind and our senses we can rise from created things to the Creator.

Come let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. (Isaiah 2:3)

 

[Rocky1960]

I'm sorry, but that's the impression you gave me in your post. You don't believe in the immortal soul that God gave us. What was I to think?

I agree with you.

 

[Timothew]

Immortality comes to us through resurrection, not because we are innately immortal. If we were immortal by nature, there would be no reason for Christ to die and be resurrected. We would live forever anyway. But Christ died and was resurrected and He gives the same resurrection to us. This happens as a result of His resurrection, just as Dorothea's Study Bible note says,

Through the Resurrection of the God-Man, the nature of man has been led irrevocably to the path of immortality

Our resurrection from the dead is a Gift from God, Dorothea. He gives us resurrection on the last day. We don't have immortality unless God gives it to us.

 

[Timothew]

I agree with you.

Rocky, Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead?

That is our hope in Christ, that He will raise us up from the dead on the last day and we will live forever with Him. I don't understand how you think that this is not Christian.

However, Ghostly Spirits going to a Ghostly Spiritland, that doesn't seem to be a Christian Idea at all.

 

[razeontherock]

If you had ever read the Bible instead of listening to what people say it says
you would know you don't have an "immortal soul".
There is no such concept in the Bible.

Ribi, this is flaming. Not cool!

 

[Timothew]

Ribi, this is flaming. Not cool!

Hi Razeon
Correct this eggregious oversight! Show us the phrase "immortal soul" in your Bible. Please post it here.
Then we will all live happily together and sing Kumbaya.

 

[Stryder06]

The scripture teaches us that in the beginning God created man from the dust of the earth and then blew into his nostrils the breath of life. That breath is what is rendered as "spirit". It is not a separate living entity that was imparted to us. The scriptures are also clear that there will be a resurrection where the dead shall shake off the chains of the tomb and then declare "Oh death where is thy sting. O grave where is thy victory". The reason why this is, is because it is only a temporary situation. Death for the righteous is only momentary. Consider also that since the dead have no knowledge that they are dead, time passes by for them in an instant. Adam will have no idea that he has been dead for thousands of years. As soon as your eyes close in death they open in the resurrection. It's like when you have a really good deep sleep, and as soon as you close your eyes to sleep you're opening them and see that it's daytime.

 

[Dorothea]

Immortality comes to us through resurrection, not because we are innately immortal. If we were immortal by nature, there would be no reason for Christ to die and be resurrected. We would live forever anyway. But Christ died and was resurrected and He gives the same resurrection to us. This happens as a result of His resurrection, just as Dorothea's Study Bible note says,
Our resurrection from the dead is a Gift from God, Dorothea. He gives us resurrection on the last day. We don't have immortality unless God gives it to us.

Yes, and God gave us immortality from the start by breathing life into us - our soul and spirit. The body came from the dust, but our souls/spirits didn't. They came from Him, therefore they go on etenally and shall. The difference, I believe, we have (some of us on here) is how we view Christ's Incarnation, dying on the Cross for us, and His Resurrection. When this happened, the veil in the temple was stripped away. Our souls/spirits were, from then on, to never be separated from Christ (the believers, that is). We cannot be separated from Christ in this way. It's through His Grace that our souls are immortal and will return to Him when we depart from this earth. At His Second Coming is when it is finished...we reunite with our bodies that were lying in the ground dead, to our souls/spirits once again, in a regenerated or transfigured state (glorified) and will be with Him in His Kingdom forever.

 

[Dorothea]

Hi Razeon
Correct this eggregious oversight! Show us the phrase "immortal soul" in your Bible. Please post it here.
Then we will all live happily together and sing Kumbaya.

The word may not be explicitely in there, just like the Trinity isn't, but it is gleamed from translation and interpretion of the early Church Fathers (disciples of the Apostles) that we do indeed have an immortal soul from the beginning because God breathed life into our bodies. It's through Him that we have life forever (believers). See, Adam and Eve were made whole from the beginning. It was their choice to disobey and ultimately sin against Him, and thus bringing about death and an inclination towards sin.

 

[Dorothea]

The scripture teaches us that in the beginning God created man from the dust of the earth and then blew into his nostrils the breath of life. That breath is what is rendered as "spirit". It is not a separate living entity that was imparted to us. The scriptures are also clear that there will be a resurrection where the dead shall shake off the chains of the tomb and then declare "Oh death where is thy sting. O grave where is thy victory". The reason why this is, is because it is only a temporary situation. Death for the righteous is only momentary. Consider also that since the dead have no knowledge that they are dead, time passes by for them in an instant. Adam will have no idea that he has been dead for thousands of years. As soon as your eyes close in death they open in the resurrection. It's like when you have a really good deep sleep, and as soon as you close your eyes to sleep you're opening them and see that it's daytime.

Exactly, the spirit is what gives us life, and the soul is the vehicle for it. So, this is what makes us different from animals and other things created by God on this earth. Animals' body and souls came from the dust, our bodies are from the dust, our spirits are from God...and He is life enterally. He's not of death and never died. So, therefore the verse you're saying cooberates what I was saying. Death has no dominion over us because Christ conquered it. Our spirits are no longer separated from God after we depart this earthily life. We no longer wait in the tombs - body soul and spirit, waiting for Christ to come incarnate in the flesh to break this division (the veil in the temple) and to give eternal life with Him in His Kingdom.

 

[Gary51]

Funny how none of it changes Christian truths.

What are Christian truths? Do you mean Christian opinions of what truth is?

 

[Gary51]

I agree. The bible is our source of truth.

Yet, mainstream Christianity is a body of division, because of disagreement of what biblical truth is.

 

[razeontherock]

In post #153 i see Dorothea quoting Timothew addressing me. I can't find the context of what I said ...

 

[Gary51]

The source?

No... the bible is a witness to the truth. It is not the source of Christian truth.

Forgive me...

It is both witness and the source, to and of, the truth.

You can't even agree on that simple fact!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What are Christain truths? Do you mean Christian opinions of what truth is?

Hello Gary,

No. I mean the unchanging Christian truths handed down without interuption from the time of Christ.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Forgive me...

 

[Gary51]

Christ is the source of Christian truth. Not the bible.

There is more to Christianity than we can get from just the bible.

Forgive me...

So, you have not learnt from the bible? Did you get personal lessons from Christ?

The bible is the source that Christ gave. That is where you got your belief.