Are Most Catholics Hell-bound?

Chrystal-J

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Sure why not.

If you can be against unions, libertarian, anti social safety net, work against an economically just society and still say you're Catholic well, fair is fair.

If some people who say they are Catholic are against the things you mentioned, what does that have to do with an individual's Mass attendance? Or receiving the Eucharistic? That's between you and the Lord--a personal experience. What does that have to do with unions or the economy?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Hi Dani, welcome to our subforum

I think the idea is not that the Church makes arbitrary rules "and if you miss church, lets kick them to hell hahaha"
no nothing like that

it is recognizing reality
if we do not put God first in our lives
then our spiritual lives are in serious risk

this is one way that we put God first in our life
by going to mass
so this is not like a rule that was made up
but recognizing a deep spiritual truth

Exactly. The very first commandment-You shall love the Lord your God...when we go to Mass every week, we (sorta) keep that commandment.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I've missed Mass two weeks in a row. Once because of travel and this past week because I just didn't feel good. I meant to go to the 5:30 pm Mass and just couldn't motivate myself to even do that.
Seems like legit reason to me. God doesn't ask the impossible...
 
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Root of Jesse

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I thought it was if you're outside the church knowing full well that it's the one true church established by Christ? Most people outside the church don't agree or know this to be a fact.

Personally I'm outside the church. I've spent the last two or three months seriously looking into the church, along with Orthodoxy, from a Lutheran, former Pentecostal, background. A couple weeks ago I met my breaking point and snapped. I got so sick and tired of the legalistic crap that doesn't resemble the NT church or anything the Lord said, between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Pentecostalism, Baptist/Calvinism, Methodism, etc. Everyone calling everyone false and or/evil, twisting scriptures to prove who's right and who's wrong. Everyone believing something different with a different set of rules. I got so stressed out to the point of not sleeping. I was wishing God would just come down and tell me to my face who's right, what the right path was. Then I remembered what Jesus said..... Just be a child. Just believe in me. I've taken a break from organized religion and focused on just God alone. My stress is relieved. God used a dream and a Pentecostal preacher to save me a couple years ago. He didn't use Catholicism. He used his message.

There's no way this God is sending me to hell for being outside the church. There's no way God is punishing me for being his child and letting all the legalistic crap go. When I get my strength back and my mind right I'll investigate again, but I won't let it consume me that way it did. He makes it so easy for us but we feel the need to make it difficult. Jesus didn't say to go through so many months of this class or that class to be part of the church, and that's true from the LCMS and RCC, among many others. Man it just destroyed my mind.

This reminds me of Sola Scriptura. If you're blind how can you rely on scripture alone? If you're in a place in this world where there is no RCC you can get to how can you be part of the church?

Just believe. Receive the message and believe. Before people jump down my throat for "oh em gee, what's with all these ppl teaching against our doctrine?" don't bother. I'm not giving up on you all, just taking a break and getting my mind right. The God that I keep in touch with daily, live my life for, who has blessed me, saved me, isn't sending me to hell for not being part of your label.

Christian...Satan believes God is God. Ergo, "just believe" isn't enough.

Regarding "the Church", if you're Catholic, and other Catholics are the ones driving you away from the Church with their humanism, just remember who's there on the altar, and in the Tabernacle. Be part of His Church. Don't worry about the bad parishoners, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. Find a place where you can dwell in His grace.
 
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Chrystal-J

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Christian...Satan believes God is God. Ergo, "just believe" isn't enough.

Regarding "the Church", if you're Catholic, and other Catholics are the ones driving you away from the Church with their humanism, just remember who's there on the altar, and in the Tabernacle. Be part of His Church. Don't worry about the bad parishoners, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. Find a place where you can dwell in His grace.

Good point. Even Satan and his demons know that God is real. They know exactly who Jesus is. In Matthew 8:31 demons begged Jesus to show them mercy. So, just believing in Jesus is not enough. We must worship and serve Him too.

I also agree with you regarding people in the church. They're human, they're going to make mistakes or have issues. You can't turn your back on the Eucharistic because of some troubled people (who may need you to help them back on the right path).
 
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MKJ

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Well, the majority of the people I know do not know of the idea of the Mass-as-Sacrifice, but that idea is the cornerstone in the teaching of the Catholic Church on the matter. If the Mass is the same sacrifice as the Sacrifice of Christ, then it has the same moral force as the Sabbath in the era before Christ (even more moral force, I suppose). The choice, then, is always between the Sacrifice of Christ, and by extension, Christ Himself, and a baseball game - and choosing the latter implies a rejection of the former. I can't help but attribute it to ignorance, considering the alternative is fully knowing the unreasonableness of it, and choosing the unreasonable response anyway.

I wonder what the responses would be if we changed the OP's question to "if a person lived as a Christian all her life, feeding the poor, going to Mass, etc., and then one day was offered a significant amount of money if she would reject Christ - would she be damned if she did not confess her sin?"

I do not really think that is a great comparison, nor is the baseball game. Those are either materialistic or frivolous, and I cannot see well-formed Christians saying those are good reasons to become apostate or to miss mass.

I think the more substantial questions that are raised have to do with the idea that one act among the millions that make up our existance can competely sever our relationship with God, that it will constitute a rejection of him that is that absolute; and the idea that attending mass, just like other things in our lives, can at times hold a different relation to other duties we have.

Just as an example of the second point: i remember one week my kids and I were supposed to go to my MILs place for lunch after Sunday church, and my husbands grandmother was going to be there as well. We had not seen any of them for a while, and we do not get to see great-grandma much. My youngest had not had a great sleep, and in the morning it became clear to me that if I tried to go to church and lunch, we would end up with a meltdown.

So, we skipped church. We go every Sunday as well as events during the week, we had no special responsibilities that week, and it was clear to me that in this case, obligations to family were in more need of attention than our relationships in Church, be they to God or other member of the congregation. normally we consider those absolute obligations - but in some cases, the immediate duties can be elsewhere.

I would also point out that the reasons you have described really apply to any mass, not just Sunday. If we do not have good reasons, should we not be attending mass daily if it is available - is failure to do so for anything less than very serious reasons the same as selling out Christ for money. That seems to be the implication, but that does not seem to be the teaching.

I think these are the sorts of reasons serious Christians find this particular teaching legalistic - it seems under fairly plausible circumstances to become ridiculous, or to fail to take into account too many common situations, or other parts of peoples spiritual lives. Once all the qualifications have been made, you might as well have just said that Sunday Mass is a very important obligation in our lives and should be treated with that kind of weight. It is like it is not taking account of the forest because of paying too much attention to the trees.

And I would also say that I do not see that it is, practically, a very helpful teaching. It does not seem to make Catholics more likely to attend mass than any other group of Christians. And many Protestants and Orthodox Christians take attendance very seriously without such a teaching. On the other hand, I suspect Cosmic Charlies response is a rather common one, or less commonly the kind of obsession with correct behavior that is very unhealthy.

All of which is to say, it does not seem to be either very accurate or very useful.
 
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MKJ

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So, according to some of these posts...

In order to be Catholic--you don't need to go to Mass, receive the Eucharistic or go to confession (where you'd have to confess you're deliberately not going to Mass).
What constitutes being "Catholic" then? Just saying that you are? :scratch:

I did not really any posts like that.

What you are describing does not quite align with missing Sunday Mass is a mortal sin. There is a lot of room in between those two things.
 
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Chrystal-J

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What you are describing does not quite align with missing Sunday Mass is a mortal sin. There is a lot of room in between those two things.

What do you mean 'there's a lot of room'? You mean you can deliberately not go to Mass, not receive the Eucharistic and still consider yourself a practicing Catholic?

Catholic cannon law states this:
Given how precious the Mass is plus the Old Testament precedent which was rightly adapted by the Church, the Code of Canon Law (#1246) proscribes, “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.” Moreover, “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass...” (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin” (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Recently, our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998).

Link: Is Missing Mass a Mortal Sin?

My question was...can you reject the teachings of the Catholic church (like not going to Mass on Sundays) and still be Catholic? Or the better question would be...WHY would you want to be considered Catholic if you reject the teachings of the Catholic church?
 
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judechild

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1/3-2/3 (depending on the study and wording) don't believe that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. This is much more concerning to me.

That is part of the problem, yes.

IMHO, the position you state is legalism. What you seem to be implying is that if folks cannot pass a catechism test on the Mass-as-sacrifice, they are doomed.

The implication "if folks cannot pass a catechism test on the Mass-as-sacrifice, they are doomed" was not present in my post, and even if it was, that is not legalism; that would be Gnosticism. Legalism is a mindset where the person does one thing and is automatically reciprocated reagarless of any further actions or intentions; that was the mindset that people were adopting toward "x days indulgence" for saying certain prayers, and so the Church stopped publishing those indulgences.

What I did say was that a lack of understanding of the Mass-as-Sacrifice leads to Catholics not knowing why the Church commands the individual Catholic to go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days; your conditional-statement should be revised, then, to "if folks cannot pass a catechism test on the Mass-as-Sacrifice, they will not understand the reason that the Church commands Catholics to go to Mass on Sundays." That is a much different implication.

The Mercy of Jesus is not based on our passing a catechism test. It is not measured by the number, severity, and timing of our sins (worse close to death). The Mercy of God is based on His sovereignty. We have been promised that if we cooperate with the gift of faith, we can then hope for eternal life with Him. So, Jesus will look into our hearts.

What you've written here is not wrong, but you are missing quite a bit, and, quarkily enough, are falling close to legalism yourself. It's always interested me that most people, while decrying legalism, then go on to describe the method of salvation as essential legal and dualistic. I'll explain why my position doesn't fit the label of legalism, and then say what I mean by dualism.

On legalism: A sin is a violation of a Law, of course, but since God is primarily Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (rather than Judge, Jury, and Executioner), the primary context of sin is relational. By sinning, I am rejecting the Fatherhood of God prior to rejecting His Sovereignty. That is why the prayer where we say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is addressed to Our Father, rather than Our Master, or Oh Divine Judge. The act of forgiveness is profoundly relational - but then, so is the act of holding a grudge. By discordant relationships, the Christian who holds a grudge against another also throws out of harmony his own relationship to God - which is in far greater need of forgiveness from God, then his neighbor is from himself (charmingly depicted in Jesus' Parable of the Unforgiving Servant, Mt. 18:21-35). Because of this, then, when you say "cooperate with the gift of faith," I fully agree; and sinning is not cooperating with the gift of faith. Cooperation with the gift of faith is something relational and affected by the individual's actions, and so we cannot separate what Jesus finds when he looks "into our hearts" from our daily actions, which yes, does include "the number, severity, and timing of our sins." To separate the daily action of human life from the state of the heart is to espouse a legalism where the salvation of God is a matter of legally glossing over sins - as if the sins were merely a legal - and not a relational - matter. With that in mind, consider the legal obligation of Sunday Mass through a relational lens: by participating in the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Christian is brought into the most profound relationship to the Divine that he or she could be. It is the duty of the Christian to rise with Christ, and this is effected most completely in participating in the Mass; on the other hand, to choose to do something else when the person is otherwise able is to turn away from that relationship.

On dualism: A temptation in modern spirituality is to over-subjectivize spirituality. Separating daily action from the state of the heart is to make two separate realms: the realm of the spirit, which is seen primarily as an interior "me and Jesus" thing, and the realm of the flesh, which is seen as, at best, only a shadow of something More Real. Consequently, most people excuse themselves from certain obligations (including alms-giving, going to Mass, and not gossiping) by saying "oh, God knows my heart," or "He understands." On the contrary, the Thomist philosopher Jacques Maritain says that the Christian is called to something he coined as "Active contemplation;" it means that the actions of the Christian in daily life stem from the Christian's prayer and relationship with God; and if there is no "contemplation" then there is of course no "active contemplation." To choose to go to Mass is an aspect of the "contemplation" side of the term, and its effects are metaphysically inscribed in the soul.

Unfortunately, a large part of the "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, and then yer' all set!" theology has penetrated the Catholic mainstream. That notion is the most legalistic of them all, because it envisions a system where, no matter what I do in my daily life, my relationship with God is static and unaffected. The Catholic theology, on the other hand, claims that my actions do in fact dynamically affect my relationship with God - for better or for worse. A priest once told me "All human life is an initiation into the eternal," and I completely agree. Its an initiation into the life of God, and that initiation is never static.

And just BTW, the understanding of Mass-as Sacrifice is not the only view of Scripture. The Orthodox reject this as a late Western addition to dogma.

Remember the last time we were talking about a difference in theology between the Orthodox and the Catholics? The same thing then applies now: the Catholic theology lays the reason for why Catholics are required to go to Mass on Sunday. I do not know the Orthodox theology, but this is the way it developed in the West. Consequently, it does not matter in this particular case what the Orthodox theology is - the Orthodox theology is sufficient for the Orthodox, not for Catholics.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Hi, everyone,

I am a cradle Catholic, and I love the Catholic faith still. However, I am highly concerned with a very important area of theology, and I find any insight I've gained from research so far quite disconcerting. Okay, so here it goes:

One day, a priest told my congregation, "Missing Mass is a mortal sin." I began thinking how my fellow parishioners--and many other individuals who live in my heavily Catholic area--have missed Mass. Many simply miss occasionally for baseball games or shopping, yet I know they nonetheless retain a deep trust in Christ. Indeed, I am guilty of skipping Mass sometimes, too. Eaten up with fear, I went to Confession.

So, apparently, I am safe, having gone to Confession--but what about the many, MANY people within the Catholic faith who have shrugged off their responsibility to attend Mass? Is it true that if one goes to Mass every week in his life, only to shirk going to Sunday Mass in favor of attending a baseball game, and then dies the following Monday, he will go to hell according to Catholic doctrine? This seems astoundingly legalistic to me, and I just can't believe the Church could truly teach this, much less justify it.

This question tends to make Catholics mad. (Trust me, I've already asked some local priests, who either avoid the question or answer in annoyance or anger). With that in mind, I ask you to please not treat me like a heathen or an internet troll, but remember that I am simply one of your Catholic sisters (albeit, a confused one!) whose Catholic faith is a bit troubled.

Thank you,

MissTea

The precepts of God are rigid... IOW - they appear rigid. But He gave us the Ten Commandments to both aid us on what 'makes Him feel loved' and how we love our neighbors.

Now we have Mass - a really simple form of worshiping God, going to Him, showing our love and attention for Him...
We get the easy part - He had the hard part. He lived, went thru a horrible passion, beaten, had nails driven into his feet and hands - had a crown of thorns shoved thru His holy head... and all the world is concerned with is - baseball?

Look, why do ppl put unimportant junk before our Lord in the 1st place?
They take all He did for granted....and then they expect He is ok with that. Yah, ok.

IF they really cared - they ought to find a Mass on Sat evening - to show God they are forever thankful for the gifts He gave - His covenant - His opening the gates of Heaven and offering forgiveness... and making it 'easy' for us by doing these really easy things - to have a peaceful eternity with Him.

He did all the work, unfortunately ppl dont want to give even a small portion of time back to Him.

He asks for [through the Church] - 60 hours a year to say 'Thank you and I love you...' [52 Sunday Masses at one hour or so and 8 days of obligation unless they hit too close to Sunday]

Is He that boring that ppl cant take the time or find the time??

This is what HE wants in return for all He gave - our time - our attentiveness and most of all - our desire to be there with Him in the Eucharist.

For those who snub Him - do we really wonder why it's such a serious sin?
 
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MKJ

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What do you mean 'there's a lot of room'? You mean you can deliberately not go to Mass, not receive the Eucharistic and still consider yourself a practicing Catholic? ....

......

My question was...can you reject the teachings of the Catholic church (like not going to Mass on Sundays) and still be Catholic? Or the better question would be...WHY would you want to be considered Catholic if you reject the teachings of the Catholic church?

No, that is not what I meant.

I meant that there are a lot of positions one could hold that are not as extreme as saying either that there is no need to attend weekly mass, go to confession, etc on the one hand; or on the other, the idea that weekly mass being missed is a mortal sin is legalistic.

To put it another way - the same person could think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, and not think that it is ok to never attend weekly mass or go to confession and so on.

In fact, the same person might think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, but still think that Sunday mass is an important duty in our lives.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Cardinal George addresses if missing mass a mortal sin - YouTube


ALSO:



So is missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin?


It is certainly a grave sin if it is missed intentionally with no reason (CCC 2181). It can be a mortal sin depending upon your intention for missing Mass. However, if you have a proper and just reason to miss Mass then it is not a sin at all, not even a venial sin. This can be because one is sick or if you have someone to take care of that you can’t leave, like an elderly person or an infant. How about work? A pastor, speaking for Christ who as judge can judge your intentions, is empowered by Christ and the Church to dispense a person from their Sunday obligation; this can be for work related reasons (2181). This also means that if the priest, allowing Christ to speak through him, tells you your reasons for missing Mass are not sufficient, then you should attend weekly Mass. Missing Mass on Sunday should not be something which we try to get dispensed from; the Mass should be something that we look forward to whereby we can give something back to God. Missing Mass on Sunday, even when allowed, should be done always with a heavy heart and with regret. Whether or not one must actually work is more often a matter of choice than something one is absolutely forced to do.

Missing Mass on Sunday does not necessarily break the third commandment; you can still keep the Sabbath holy even if you cannot go to Mass. Certainly by participating at Mass one is keeping the Sabbath holy; the participation at Mass is in fact the normal and ordinary way that one keeps holy the Sabbath. What is important is that you keep it holy. Some people, unable to go to Mass on Sunday, do this by setting another day in the week aside for going to Mass, resting, and praying. But if you miss Sunday Mass for selfish reasons, then not only are you breaking the third commandment, but even worse you are most likely breaking the first commandment by placing something before God and serving a false idol.

https://sites.google.com/a/stpaulca...ass/is-it-a-mortal-sin-to-miss-mass-on-sunday
 
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WarriorAngel

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It is both a precept of the Church and Church law that Catholics must worship God on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation by participating in the Holy Mass. This follows from the fact that in the Mass it is Christ Himself who worships the Father, joining our worship to His. In no other way is it possible to adequately give thanks (eucharistia) to God for the blessings of creation, redemption and our sanctification than by uniting our offerings to that of Jesus Christ Himself. Following the example of the Old Covenant the Church does this weekly, on the day of the Lord's Resurrection.
Canon 1247
On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass; they are also to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body.
Canon 1248
1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.
2. If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the liturgy of the word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.
Since a "grave cause" is needed to excuse one from this obligation it would be a serious or mortal sin to willfully skip Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation, as the Church has always taught. Reasons such as the necessity to work to support one's family, child care, personal sickness or the care of the sick, necessary travel etc. would excuse a person on a particular occasions. Those who have continuing reason to be excused should consult their pastor.


Sunday Mass and Holy Day Obligation
 
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mark46

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First, if you truly accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, then you will obey his commands. First that is what it is means to accept Jesus as Lord. Secondly, we obey out of love and gratitude.

But, I do agree that the "Baptist union card" philosophy has no place within the Church. OSAS is simply not acceptable.

However, I do think that we have a very different idea of what it means to be in relationship and likely a different understanding of the Mercy of God. For me, this thread makes little sense. It makes no sense to consider that one is going to hell because of a couple lapses in behavior (missing mass). That is NOT what a loving earthly father would do. Consider that our heavenly father is even more loving. The difference is literally between God as Father and God as Judge.

Unfortunately, a large part of the "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, and then yer' all set!" theology has penetrated the Catholic mainstream.

That notion is the most legalistic of them all, because it envisions a system where, no matter what I do in my daily life, my relationship with God is static and unaffected.

The Catholic theology, on the other hand, claims that my actions do in fact dynamically affect my relationship with God - for better or for worse. A priest once told me "All human life is an initiation into the eternal," and I completely agree. Its an initiation into the life of God, and that initiation is never static.
 
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Chrystal-J

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No, that is not what I meant.

I meant that there are a lot of positions one could hold that are not as extreme as saying either that there is no need to attend weekly mass, go to confession, etc on the one hand; or on the other, the idea that weekly mass being missed is a mortal sin is legalistic.

To put it another way - the same person could think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, and not think that it is ok to never attend weekly mass or go to confession and so on.

In fact, the same person might think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, but still think that Sunday mass is an important duty in our lives.

It's not up to the individual to decide what is a mortal sin and what is not. The part of Cannon law that I posted (post #49) is the standard to which practicing Catholics must go by. Sunday Mass is more than an important duty--it's an obligation. Thus, not going to Mass is a mortal sin. The question is whether missing Mass is a mortal sin. And that's a set in stone issue. So, I don't see how legalism plays into it.
 
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mark46

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I am curious. What do you think legalism means?

You say that someone will go to hell of they do not go to confession after violating Canon Law #2181 and that isn't legalism. So, I'm curious.


It's not up to the individual to decide what is a mortal sin and what is not. The part of Cannon law that I posted (post #49) is the standard to which practicing Catholics must go by. Sunday Mass is more than an important duty--it's an obligation. Thus, not going to Mass is a mortal sin. The question is whether missing Mass is a mortal sin. And that's a set in stone issue. So, I don't see how legalism plays into it.
 
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Rhamiel

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No, that is not what I meant.

I meant that there are a lot of positions one could hold that are not as extreme as saying either that there is no need to attend weekly mass, go to confession, etc on the one hand; or on the other, the idea that weekly mass being missed is a mortal sin is legalistic.

To put it another way - the same person could think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, and not think that it is ok to never attend weekly mass or go to confession and so on.

In fact, the same person might think that it is legalistic to say that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin, but still think that Sunday mass is an important duty in our lives.


since you are a Protestant, I do not expect you to argue in favor of the idea of Mortal sins and Venial sins
but as Catholics, we make this distinction
 
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