any support for Israel

[drjean]

The thing called "Replacement Theology" doesn't really exist, except perhaps for a few isolated cases. The people who are accused of believing in "Replacement Theology" simply don't believe the narrative that the church replaced Israel. Rather, the understanding is that the definition of what it means to be "Israel" has expanded to include all those who are baptized into Christ. It just so happens that most people who are part of true Israel are not ethnicly Hebrew (although some are).

editted...

No, that's not the general meaning. If that is what YOUR church teaches, that's one thing but don't say that THAT IS the definition of "replacement theology" which most certainly does exist among the apostates.

What is replacement theology?
by Matt Slick

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.

Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

So, in replacement theology, the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God's work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

 

[Call me Nic]

editted...

No, that's not the general meaning. If that is what YOUR church teaches, that's one thing but don't say that THAT IS the definition of "replacement theology" which most certainly does exist among the apostates.

What is replacement theology?
by Matt Slick

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.

Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

So, in replacement theology, the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God's work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

The Jewish people are STILL and ALWAYS will be God's chosen people. But a Jew is a person who believes on Jesus Christ, who is circumcised in the heart.

A physical Jew is a Jew of the flesh, and is not truly a Jew in the eyes of God, because they are unbelieving, and imposters.

 

[Hank77]

Genesis 12 was promised to Abraham himself, not the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3 "And I will make of THEE a great nation, and I will bless THEE, and make THY name great; and THOU shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless THEE, and curse him that curseth THEE: and in THEE shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Thee, Thou, Thy are all singular forms of the second person pronoun, meaning that God was making a personal promise to Abraham himself; the promise does not fall on the people of Israel, because if it did, the scripture would say "You, ye, your" instead, which is the plural form of the second person pronouns.

So, do not misinterpret scripture - unbelieving Israel is not God's chosen people. Galatians 3:7 says that Christians are the children of Abraham, not the physical Jews.

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

I agree with you about all natural Israel not being the recipient of the promise. However, I believe that the blessing/cursing is to a nation because God says He will make Abraham a great nation. So the singular can be speaking of Abraham's nation.
You have shown who Abraham's nation is; I would like to back that up with more scripture.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
.....
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So the blessing and cursing directly relates to Christ and to those that be Christ's, Jew and Gentile.

 

[Knee V]

editted...

No, that's not the general meaning. If that is what YOUR church teaches, that's one thing but don't say that THAT IS the definition of "replacement theology" which most certainly does exist among the apostates.

What is replacement theology?
by Matt Slick

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.

Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

So, in replacement theology, the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God's work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

No.
What I said was that Replacement Theology isn't a thing that people actually believe in (at least for the most part). I was not trying to describe Replacement Theology, as it doesn't really exist. I was describing what people actually believe, which is not Replacement Theology.

 

[Call me Nic]

I agree with you about all natural Israel not being the recipient of the promise. However, I believe that the blessing/cursing is to a nation because God says He will make Abraham a great nation. So the singular can be speaking of Abraham's nation.
You have shown who Abraham's nation is; I would like to back that up with more scripture.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
.....
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So the blessing and cursing directly relates to Christ and to those that be Christ's, Jew and Gentile.

Okay, I accept that argument. I'm still of the persuasion that God directed those cursing/blessing promises to Abraham himself, but God also did, in the same sentence, make the promise about the eventual nation through Christ, so I can see where you're coming from on that. You do have a good point.

 

[Christfan]

We are not to support Israel or Jews that are unsaved. They reject Jesus Christ and may even claim he is in hell in boiling excrement as written in the Talmud. They are also responsible for many atrocities and wars including incidents where they murdered Americans/Civilians and tried to pin it on whoever they wanted to conquer - gulf of tonken incident, lavon affair, pollard spy case, etc..

Most of these incidents the Israeli government admitted to and even gave medals to those behind it at the time. Did we punish them? Nope, we sent them more money and bombs like we continue to do every year. Its amazing how both parties/congress/etc support AIPAC and Israel with undying loyalty.

 

[drjean]

No.
What I said was that Replacement Theology isn't a thing that people actually believe in (at least for the most part). I was not trying to describe Replacement Theology, as it doesn't really exist. I was describing what people actually believe, which is not Replacement Theology.

I never met a mindreader before.
What people I know who believe in replacement theology believe is what I posted. What you THINK you know people believe is only your opinion. Since you don't believe it exists, how can you know what people who believe in it (so it does exist) believe? Denial is part of the theology, denying the truth.

 

[drjean]

We are not to support Israel or Jews that are unsaved. They reject Jesus Christ and may even claim he is in hell in boiling excrement as written in the Talmud. They are also responsible for many atrocities and wars including incidents where they murdered Americans/Civilians and tried to pin it on whoever they wanted to conquer - gulf of tonken incident, lavon affair, pollard spy case, etc..

Most of these incidents the Israeli government admitted to and even gave medals to those behind it at the time. Did we punish them? Nope, we sent them more money and bombs like we continue to do every year. Its amazing how both parties/congress/etc support AIPAC and Israel with undying loyalty.

There is no discrimination depicted in God's Word such as this post implies. Remember, even when Jesus was on earth, they didn't even have to be believers yet He healed them!

God's Word says ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved... now in what manner, or what payment if any, punishment or whatever, doesn't matter... that's truly up to God. But I'm not mincing words regarding what God says... the verses are there and I'm supporting ALL of Israel no matter what. Their salvation is in God's hands, I am not to judge them.

Will Messianic Jews receive more reward? ABSOLUTELY especially when taken out before the wrath of God, in the rapture

 

[Call me Nic]

There is no discrimination depicted in God's Word such as this post implies. Remember, even when Jesus was on earth, they didn't even have to be believers yet He healed them!

God's Word says ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved... now in what manner, or what payment if any, punishment or whatever, doesn't matter... that's truly up to God. But I'm not mincing words regarding what God says... the verses are there and I'm supporting ALL of Israel no matter what. Their salvation is in God's hands, I am not to judge them.

Will Messianic Jews receive more reward? ABSOLUTELY especially when taken out before the wrath of God, in the rapture

Jesus did miracles so that the unbelieving jews would believe, but they chose not to believe anyway, because their eyes were blinded, and their hearts hardened (John 12:37-43).

All of Israel WILL be saved, but they aren't all Israel, who are of Israel (Romans 9:6-7), because those who are truly Israel are those who believe on Christ (Galatians 3:7-9). Those Jews whose praise are of men are not Jews (Romans 2:28-29), but are the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 3:9) because they are of their father the Devil (John 8:44-45).

Are we to have any yoke with those who are the seed of Satan? Certainly not (Genesis 3:14-15), because there is already a natural enmity there.

 

[GingerBeer]

I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?

Christians have no special obligation to the state of Israel established in 1948. That the state uses the name "Israel" confuses some Christians into thinking it is the same thing as the Israel of God mentioned in the new testament or the Israel that was a nation in ancient times. The modern state is neither the Israel of God nor the ancient nation. The modern state is just a state where the laws favour Judaism over Christianity and Islam and any other religion. It is a democratic state with a religious bias. The religious bias is towards a religion that is not Christian and whose leaders uniformly reject Jesus Christ as messiah and who regard the holy Trinity as some sort of perversion of Monotheism. The denominations that support Israel do so for very badly thought out theological reasons mostly associated with dispensationalism.

 

[Dave-W]

All Israel will be saved, but only those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are of Israel.

You are NOT reading the text. You are spouting what you have been taught. The Israel Paul is talking about is an enemy of the gospel - and they - EVERY ONE OF THEM - will be saved.

Paul is only reiterating what Jeremiah already wrote:

Jer 31.33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

All means all. None left out.

 

[LoricaLady]

I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?

I absolutely do not believe in replacement theology. The Bible clearly shows that Messiah will return to Jerusalem. Further we are told that at that time the Jews "will look on Him Whom they have pierced" and will "weep" for Him "as for any only child" and that "all Israel will be saved."

As for our obligation to Israel, all I see is that we are to pray for their peace, which I do each day - while also praying for peace for the USA and the world in general. I would never come against Israel in word or deed. I believe that would be way not smart. For example I do not think Israel should ever be divided and would never speak up for that.

 

[Call me Nic]

You are NOT reading the text. You are spouting what you have been taught. The Israel Paul is talking about is an enemy of the gospel - and they - EVERY ONE OF THEM - will be saved.

Paul is only reiterating what Jeremiah already wrote:

Jer 31.33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

All means all. None left out.

The key scripture is Romans 11:23 "And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

If the unbelieving Jew comes to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and gets saved, he will of course become part of true Israel. But if those unbelieving remain without belief, they will never be considered apart of true Israel, and will not be saved or delivered, for they reject the witness of God and call him a liar.

And by the way, I'm not spouting what I have been "taught," I'm making my point from what I've read for myself.

 

[Hank77]

Read on.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

The Israel Paul is talking about here is an enemy of the gospel.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Gentiles receiving mercy doesn't mean all Gentiles will believe anymore that Jews receiving mercy means that all Jews will believe.

I defend Israel's right to be a nation and I pray for the safety of the people living there. I pray for all Jews wherever they live to come to know their Messiah.

God isn't finished with the Jewish people, meaning all the people of the 12 tribes not just Judea. I truly believe when they begin to come it will be like a flood of living water and a most joyous occasion.

 

[Knee V]

I never met a mindreader before.
What people I know who believe in replacement theology believe is what I posted. What you THINK you know people believe is only your opinion. Since you don't believe it exists, how can you know what people who believe in it (so it does exist) believe? Denial is part of the theology, denying the truth.

I have been involved with these kinds of things for long enough to have formed an opinion based on facts and other people's testimonies, and not on "mind-reading". In nearly every discussion I have been on where people have been accused of believing in so-called "Replacement Theology", nearly every single person has expressed what I have expressed: "No, I don't believe in Replacement Theology. That is a strawman."

I'll concede this: if you can show me real examples of people who actually believe in Replacement Theology, and in their own words, then I will believe you when you say that you encounter that a lot.

 

[Hank77]

editted...

No, that's not the general meaning. If that is what YOUR church teaches, that's one thing but don't say that THAT IS the definition of "replacement theology" which most certainly does exist among the apostates.

What is replacement theology?
by Matt Slick

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.

Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

So, in replacement theology, the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God's work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

Got Questions does a much better job of explaining the differences in theological beliefs.

True Replacement theology is just not scriptural as far as I'm considered and I agree there are few people who still hold to those ideas.
What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

I believe in New Covenant theology, which isn't dispensational or covenant, but in-between.
What is new covenant theology?

 

[Hank77]

You are NOT reading the text. You are spouting what you have been taught. The Israel Paul is talking about is an enemy of the gospel - and they - EVERY ONE OF THEM - will be saved.

Paul is only reiterating what Jeremiah already wrote:

Jer 31.33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

All means all. None left out.

I think you said that the new covenant, this one spoken of in Jeremiah, had taken effect. How many of the 12 tribes, Judea and the other 11, have died in the last 2,000 yrs. without accepting their Messiah?

 

[Dave-W]

The Jews that rejected Jesus Christ are not part of true Israel - (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

According to Romans 11 they ARE.

 

[LoricaLady]

editted...

No, that's not the general meaning. If that is what YOUR church teaches, that's one thing but don't say that THAT IS the definition of "replacement theology" which most certainly does exist among the apostates.

What is replacement theology?
by Matt Slick

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.

Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

So, in replacement theology, the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God's work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

Amen.

 

[Dave-W]

The thing called "Replacement Theology" doesn't really exist, except perhaps for a few isolated cases.

Daniel Juster - The Replacement Theology Challenge Today
Replacement Theology | Jewish Voice Ministries International
https://www.aglow.org/images/leaderDev/ReplacementTheology/Replacement-Theology-Part-1.pdf
https://www.aglow.org/images/leaderDev/ReplacementTheology/Replacement-Theology-Part-2.pdf
https://www.aglow.org/images/leaderDev/ReplacementTheology/Replacement-Theology-Part-3.pdf

 

[Dave-W]

I think you said that the new covenant, this one spoken of in Jeremiah, had taken effect. How many of the 12 tribes, Judea and the other 11, have died in the last 2,000 yrs. without accepting their Messiah?

Too many.