any support for Israel

[delta-team]

I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?

 

[Albion]

The people you referred to are a small minority among Christians. Indeed, these people have achieved a certain fame simply by promoting a religious principle that is NOT held by very many other Christians, let along Christian churches.

 

[Call me Nic]

John Haggee is a wicked false prophet, who has given into the doctrines of the world for filthy lucre's sake. He says that the jews are saved despite not believing in Jesus Christ.

Any person who believes there is a messiah but doesn't believe that Jesus is that messiah is an antichrist according to 1 John 2:22-23.

The Bible speaks expressly - modern, unbelieving Israel are not the people of God. Those who believe are the seed of faithful Abraham (Galatians 3:7-18), and are therefore the people of God.

 

[drjean]

I have found John Hagee to be quite Biblically based over the decades. While I wonder at a few ways he says things, basically he is reliable.

I do not agree with replacement theology.

While not mandatory, it is surely advisable to support God's Chosen People Israel! God promises blessings to those who help/bless her... and cursings to those who do not. Good enough reason for me...but knowing your Bible and studying what the Jewish people study---their Torah, our Pentateuch--- makes one realize that without the Jews, we would not be here and we would not have the salvation promise we have.

 

[Call me Nic]

I have found John Hagee to be quite Biblically based over the decades. While I wonder at a few ways he says things, basically he is reliable.

I do not agree with replacement theology.

While not mandatory, it is surely advisable to support God's Chosen People Israel! God promises blessings to those who help/bless her... and cursings to those who do not. Good enough reason for me...but knowing your Bible and studying what the Jewish people study---their Torah, our Pentateuch--- makes one realize that without the Jews, we would not be here and we would not have the salvation promise we have.

Genesis 12 was promised to Abraham himself, not the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3 "And I will make of THEE a great nation, and I will bless THEE, and make THY name great; and THOU shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless THEE, and curse him that curseth THEE: and in THEE shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Thee, Thou, Thy are all singular forms of the second person pronoun, meaning that God was making a personal promise to Abraham himself; the promise does not fall on the people of Israel, because if it did, the scripture would say "You, ye, your" instead, which is the plural form of the second person pronouns.

So, do not misinterpret scripture - unbelieving Israel is not God's chosen people. Galatians 3:7 says that Christians are the children of Abraham, not the physical Jews.

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

 

[Acts2:38]

Genesis 12 was promised to Abraham himself, not the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3 "And I will make of THEE a great nation, and I will bless THEE, and make THY name great; and THOU shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless THEE, and curse him that curseth THEE: and in THEE shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Thee, Thou, Thy are all singular forms of the second person pronoun, meaning that God was making a personal promise to Abraham himself; the promise does not fall on the people of Israel, because if it did, the scripture would say "You, ye, your" instead, which is the plural form of the second person pronouns.

So, do not misinterpret scripture - unbelieving Israel is not God's chosen people. Galatians 3:7 says that Christians are the children of Abraham, not the physical Jews.

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Spot on.

 

[Inkfingers]

Well, I support them using lethal force to defend their borders from genocidal thugs who would run amok if they got through.

But as for the biblical matters, I am undecided....and although I quite like some of Hagee's stuff I cannot trust a man who brings Jazz into a worship meeting.

 

[Dave-W]

He says that the jews are saved despite not believing in Jesus Christ.

Hagee holds to this belief, making him the worst kind of anti-semite. Making people think they are ok while sending them to hell.

 

[Dave-W]

Genesis 12 was promised to Abraham himself, not the Jews.

Genesis 12:2-3 "And I will make of THEE a great nation, and I will bless THEE, and make THY name great; and THOU shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless THEE, and curse him that curseth THEE: and in THEE shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Promised to Abraham, but clearly fulfilled thru his decendents - The Jews.

One person cannot be a "great nation."

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?

I view the jewish people as recipients of an earthly promise that is fulfilled in this earth. That as a people they will endure and be blessed. That does not carry over automatically to the soul of any individual jew; every jew and every gentile must find God for themselves in order to enter the heavenly kingdom. So as a Christian I honor God's action to choose the jews, as part of His great plan for salvation of the world. However, I recognize that the jews, like everybody else, can sin and incur the judgement of God. So it's not against my religion to make a judgement against a particular action of the nation of Israel.

 

[Kit Sigmon]

I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?

Psalm 122:6
Chapter 11 of Romans

 

[Call me Nic]

Hagee holds to this belief, making him the worst kind of anti-semite. Making people think they are ok while sending them to hell.

Exactly, brother.

 

[Call me Nic]

Promised to Abraham, but clearly fulfilled thru his decendents - The Jews.

One person cannot be a "great nation."

This was God preaching the Gospel to Abraham, speaking of the nation that would come through Christ, not the physical Jews themselves. Again, the promise has nothing to do with physical Israel.

Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

 

[Dave-W]

This was God preaching the Gospel to Abraham, speaking of the nation that would come through Christ, not the physical Jews themselves.

That is replacement theology and is a lie from the pit.

Gentiles get added into Israel. Go back and re-read Romans 11.

 

[Call me Nic]

That is replacement theology and is a lie from the pit.

Gentiles get added into Israel. Go back and re-read Romans 11.

Okay, will do.

Romans 11:1 "I say, then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."
Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." A remnant out of physical Israel - these, who are the remnant, are true Israel because they are the physical remnant that BELIEVE.

How do we know this? Because Paul says in Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect: FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And who are the children of the promise? Those who believe according to Galatians 3:7-18. Therefore, Paul is speaking about spiritual Israel and physical Israel in Romans 11, because he already established that those who are of the flesh and don't believe are NOT the children of Israel, because they do not receive the promises of God by faith. God says that he has not cast away his people who are spiritual Israel, because his people are people BY FAITH, therefore God has not lied when he said that those remnant of Israel (that believe) have not been cast away, but those who are of the flesh, those who lie about being Jews who are of physical Israel (Revelation 3:9), have been cast away and cut out of the olive branch, again, because of their unbelief (Romans 11:11-32).

 

[Dave-W]

A remnant out of physical Israel - these, who are the remnant, are true Israel because they are the physical remnant that BELIEVE.

Read on.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

The Israel Paul is talking about here is an enemy of the gospel.

 

[Knee V]

The thing called "Replacement Theology" doesn't really exist, except perhaps for a few isolated cases. The people who are accused of believing in "Replacement Theology" simply don't believe the narrative that the church replaced Israel. Rather, the understanding is that the definition of what it means to be "Israel" has expanded to include all those who are baptized into Christ. It just so happens that most people who are part of true Israel are not ethnicly Hebrew (although some are).

The narrative would go something like this: at the time of Christ, Israel was a covenant people, and included all the people who were under the covenant of Moses by circumcision, whether they physically lived in that land or were part of the diaspora. At Pentecost, Israel was pruned, or underwent a bottle-necking, and only those people of Israel who believed in Christ continued to be part of Israel as a covenent people, and those who rejected Christ were no longer part of it. At that point, Israel consisted of those Hebrews who believed in Jesus as the Christ. After a very short period of time, more Hebrews began to believe, and more and more Gentiles began to believe. As such, God's covenant people of Israel began to expand, and soon, Israel consisted of more Gentiles than Hebrews. However, all of them were Israel by virtue of their baptism into Christ, no matter what their physical ancestry was. And the same is true today.

As to the present-day nation state of Israel:
They are not in Christ, and are not God's people, and as such are prophetically irrelavent. Trying to pin modern-day Israel to various prophecies in Scripture is simply a matter of horrible, HORRIBLE, exegesis and wishful thinking.

Needless to say, I pay no mind to John Hagee and the like, and couldn't care less about their opinions. None of us are under any obligation to give "Israel" any money or support.

That said, all borders are the result of conquest. Israel fought a war and won, and now they've drawn their borders on the world map. It is what it is, and now they're a country. I do not advocate eliminating them or any such nonsense, any more than I advocate eliminating the United States, or Mexico, or Australia, or any other country established by conquest. (I only say this because the Dispensationalists and the 'Muricans will always say that someone is an "anti-Semite" for not guffawing over Israel, and imagine that I want to fund Islamic terrorists, as if rejecting one requires me to embrace the other.)

 

[Call me Nic]

Read on.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

The Israel Paul is talking about here is an enemy of the gospel.

All Israel will be saved, but only those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are of Israel. To be the seed of Abraham is to believe in Christ, which was the promise given to Abraham.

The Jews that rejected Jesus Christ are not part of true Israel - (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

 

[Knee V]

This was God preaching the Gospel to Abraham, speaking of the nation that would come through Christ, not the physical Jews themselves. Again, the promise has nothing to do with physical Israel.

Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Indeed. It is Christ Himself who is the heir to those promises, and those who are in Christ are joint heirs of those promises with Him.

 

[drjean]

Hmmm drjean is wondering about how Abraham himself multiplied within himself and created his own nation of millions. Misinterpret Scripture? four fingers pointing back atcha!

Genesis 18:18
since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed

Abraham came from Noah. We ALL came through Noah and modern science has proven this, with DNA going back to Noah's wife....

So if your premise is true that no one is Abraham's chosen people of God, where is Abraham's nation?