Antichrist and Nero

Jesse12

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.
 

CryptoLutheran

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.

After Nero's death (a self-inflicted stab wound to the throat) a legend arose that Nero would come back (Nero Redivivus). Under Domitian persecution came again to the Church, for many it was no doubt as though Nero himself had returned from the dead to again wage war against the saints.

Apocalyptic literature isn't intended to be read literally, it doesn't take a great stretch to see how those Christians to whom St. John was writing would readily understand what the Revelator was getting at, the Beast suffered a mortal wound and had come back.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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lookingglass

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You have opened a very large can of worms. This doctrine of an end time
antichrist figure has many different interpretations. Many fundamentalist
believe in someone “ the man of perdition” who will come to power as the
ultimate governor of all nations. This antichrist figure apparently has several
attributes which are taken from scripture and tell us several key things about
him.
1> He must be a world peacemaker
2> He must have a Jewish heritage
3> He must be knowledgeable about all world systems
This particular doctrine of the antichrist figure has come to known in scholarly
circles as “ Pop Theology”. Its main emphasis has end time prophecies abounding
everywhere. Several such end time prophecies point to the eminent return of
Christ shortly after the Jewish restoration or gathering together prophecy has
taken place. Fundamentalists look at the formation of state of Israel as
indicating that we are in that particular point of history just before the
return of Christ. They say that when Israel became a nation in 1948 it
fulfilled this promise as outlined in the books of Daniel and Revelation. The
final fulfillment of scripture just before this man of sin is revealed is the
rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. In order for this to happen the Muslim Mosk
must be removed which now stands in place of atop of the ruins of the original
Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. by the Roman armies.

The above is not exhaustive and there is a well developed system to this
theology. Now lets think about the few things I mentioned above. I think that
when people outline events and incorporate time periods to line up events from
the bible they are moving into the area of the unknown. Jesus himself said to
his disciples that even he himself did not know the day or the hour which his
father is keeping as secret. Because of this we need to keep in mind that any
theology that says it has outlined this event in a specific time period should
be view as suspect. If we look at the meaning of antichrist as understood by
the first century Christians we can see how thing upset the normal lifestyle of
the first century church itself.. Paul the apostle had to deal with this
problem during his day. Many people were of the opinion that the return of
Christ was eminent based on political events that that were transpiring during
that time and so Christians were quitting their jobs and not continuing in their
daily routines as would be necessary for making a living. He finally had to
write them a letter to tell them that no one can determine the day or hours as
to when He would return. It was thought back then that the Antichrist was
already on the scene. The apostle John spelled out in the number 666 an
apocalyptic signature that only the Christians understood as to the who that man
of sin was. If you look at Nero who was the Caesar at the time that was in
power you could see how his name was reflected in those very numbers. In Hebrew
gematria (Gematria or gimatria is a system of assigning numerical value to a
word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with .., every letter has a
corresponding number. Summing these numbers gives a numeric value to a word or
name. The Greek spelling, “Neron Caesar,” transliterates into Hebrew as “נרון
קסר” or “nrwn qsr”. Adding the corresponding values yields 666, as shown:
Resh = 200
Samekh = 60
Qoph = 100
Nun = 50
vav = 6
Resh = 200
Nun = 50
TOTAL = 666

The hypothesis that 666 or 616 is a code for a Roman emperor does have
historical support. The emperors were noted for their oppression of both Jews
and Christians. Both communities were known to use numerology, codes and symbols
(such as the Ichthys) when living under Roman rule to avoid persecution. You
can see that the early Christian mindset was apocalyptic in nature and that they
used secret numbers and symbols to communicate information with one another.
You might have also seen the fish symbol which was a first century secret symbol
that Christians used to identify each other as a true believer and so identified
one another secretly for fear of being singled out for persecution which was
becoming more and more rampant. Much of what has been written in the past about
this and other end time events have had their genesis in the past and have been
erroneously pushed forward into the future without warrant.
The apostle John in his epistles wrote about the antichrist and it seems that
when we examine his writings that they were many antichrists around back then
even as there are now. Antichrist figures appear in history right from the
beginning of the early church and were dealt with by the formation of creeds
like the Nicene creed. Throughout the history of the church many different
forms of heresy appeared and so this is the type of thing that John was
referring to when he wrote about as referring to antichrist.
Now there are particular New Testament scriptures that point to an end time
period and these scriptures taken together form what is known to theologians as
eschatology or the theology of end time events.
I have spent enough time researching these theologies and theories about end
time events to know that we in fact cannot know all the details and so must
remain patient and remember what Jesus himself said about this being a secret
that only his father knows about. What is important is that when we look at
those texts that point to the return of Christ that it is nowhere outlined in
scripture that a specific time can be gleaned from certain scriptures. God
indeed will return for his church as the bible indicates after the fullness of
the Gentiles has come in. The fullness of the Gentiles is that which speaks
about salvation history and how God is working through time to save as many
people as possible through the gospel.. This is commonly accepted as what must
first happen before Christ returns for his church. But just when does this
fulfillment have it termination point in the history of the church is the key.
And this is not to be seen as a date in history but rather an idea in the mind
of god himself as to what he believes about this fullness.
Remember that God is using the cross to bring many sons and daughters into
glory. He is patiently allowing time to elapse and giving every generation the
opportunity to accept his plan of salvation.
But let me say that you can get a better handle on this subject by reading the
gospel of Matthew chapter 24 and see what Jesus said about certain events that would first happen before the end. Here in this particular chapter there is a division between things that would happen in his generation and things that would happen later. There is more to this if you are interested.
 
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wayseer

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.

Revelation is hardly history. Why post here?
 
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lookingglass

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Wayseer, I will not try to convince you who or what the antichrist is. I will only tell you that the doctrine concerning a specific individual who should come and fulfill this role is quite likely a literal rendering of texts that some say should not necessarily be read in that fashion. There are scholars who would argue that the man of sin is not a man per se but rather an image of the church and or society itself gone wayward. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; See Coffman commentaries of the new testament online concerning this man of sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
I know there are many scholars who would argue in favor of a specific person but from the research I have conducted so far I personally favor the former rendering.
Now if one decides to take the literal approach then one would have to be ready to defend it exegetically in other texts that show this man of sin to be more like a world involved in humanistic and secular pursuits marginalizing those texts that speak of god as a judge who will punish people.
See 1 Thessalonians 5:3-6 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
Secular theism favors a God of love separate from judgment and so love as a universal theme is more amiable to the modern mind in fact to be politically correct more admirable and mature. I could go on about this kind of rationalization of truth. But the word says:
F or the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. --Romans 1:18
 
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Apocalyptic literature isn't intended to be read literally, it doesn't take a great stretch to see how those Christians to whom St. John was writing would readily understand what the Revelator was getting at, the Beast suffered a mortal wound and had come back.

-CryptoLutheran

But the Burning Bush, the Ark, the tale of Jonah, the Red Sea Parting, the dead rising in Matthew, the seven day creation, the virgin birth, the healing of a man who was blind from birth, the sky parting and God speaking are meant to be taken literally?

I would be interested in what parts are metaphorical and not to be taken literally vs. what is to be taken are in your estimation some time.
 
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nathanlandon1

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.

These things must happen before Antichrist is come:

TIMELINE:
AFTER THE DEATH OF CHRIST (SEALS)
- A "white knight" conquering
- A "red knight" taking peace away from the WHOLE WORLD
- A "black knight" bringing about a famine
- A "pale knight" bringing about DEATH
- A chorus of God's saints crying, asking how long will it be before the end
- The sun turning black, the moon turning red, the "stars" falling
- Seal of God (#1)

TIMELINE: IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING ANTICHRIST'S COMING (TRUMPS)
- Hail mingled with fire crashing to earth burning 1/3 of plants and grass
- A comet/meteor cast into a sea/ocean of the earth
- A star/brown dwarf coming UPON (not into) the earth, destroying
- Moon, Sun and stars are smitten (1/3 part)
- A "star" falling to earth having AUTHORITY to open the abyss, torturing all those without the seal of God
- A 200,000,000 man war
- Trump of God (#2)

TIMELINE: AFTER THE ARRIVAL AND ESTABLISHMENT OF ANTICHRIST (VIALS)
- Sores/Plagues Falling on everyone that didn't have the seal of God
- Seas turns to "blood," massive marine die off
- Water (springs, fountains, etc.) turns to "blood"
- Sun scorches humans (possible mega flares)
- Incredible pain falls upon people; Kingdom of the Beast full of darkness
- Another Great War, King of East has a way made; kingdoms prepare for battle
- IT IS FINISHED (#3)



Nero may have been evil and a powerful ruler, but close to none of these wonders have befallen him. Nero did not declare himself God and substantiate it with wonders and supernatural abilities. Also, Antichrist will be ALIVE when Yahoshuah comes because the vials of wrath of God will befall HIS KINGDOM, including the 7th Vial of God where every knee will bow to God. Nero is dead. Nero did not show signs and wonders. Nero was not preceded by global destruction by meteorites/rocks and a comet/meteor. There are literally millions of people whose gematria equals "666." I do not believe the number of this man's name is what identifies him. The sixth seal, trump and vial all represent irrefutable characteristics of the man called Antichrist, just like the seventh seal, trump and vial represent characteristics of God/Yahoshuah.

And the most important thing is that when Antichrist is come (and gone,) then comes the Reign of Christ. Christ is not here yet, therefore Nero was not Antichrist. He may have been an antichrist, as the bible says there will be many antichrists, but Nero's designation was not Antichrist.


The Roman Empire is still alive - it is called the United States of America. The U.S. government is almost an exact replica of the roman system. The U.S. government architecture is an image of Rome. Please read Daniel 11 and 12 for more information (Revelations is a detailed description of Daniel 11/12.) If order for Antichrist to come and go, the end of the world must befall all of us. When Antichrist goes, God reigns.

 
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CryptoLutheran

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But the Burning Bush, the Ark, the tale of Jonah, the Red Sea Parting, the dead rising in Matthew, the seven day creation, the virgin birth, the healing of a man who was blind from birth, the sky parting and God speaking are meant to be taken literally?

I would be interested in what parts are metaphorical and not to be taken literally vs. what is to be taken are in your estimation some time.

Context and critical analysis. The Bible isn't one book, but a collection of books, each text has context involving literary genre (epistle, gospel, apocalypse, history, proverb, poetry, etc), when it was written, where it was written, to whom it was written, who wrote it, for what reason it was written. In some cases a book may not have a single author, but instead several authors and which has come to us through redaction (the Psalms is a good example here).

The Revelation belongs to a literary genre known as apocalypse, which comes from the Greek word apokalupto meaning "unveiling" or "revelation". It was a common literary form in the 2nd Temple period and beyond, Old Testament texts which more-or-less fit the genre include at least Daniel (or rather, parts of it), other apocalyptic texts from the period include the Apocalypse of Esdras, the Apocalypse of Abraham, the Apocalypse of Peter (there are two texts which bear this title, one is a Gnostic text and one isn't, the non-Gnostic text at one point was more popular among some churches than the Apocalypse of John, which you and I usually know as the Revelation), etc.

Apocalyptic literature contains cryptic, visionary, and highly graphic imagery and material to say what it's trying to say. So when St. John writes that he sees a beast with numerous heads and diadems and a harlot riding upon a scarlet beast, or monstrous locusts ascending out from the abyss, chances are the point isn't literal multi-headed beasts or monstrous locusts. As to what John is communicating requires that we look at the text critically, examining internal and external information.

Internally the introduction to the Revelation tells us the circumstances, there is persecution and John has been sent to the island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony off the coast of Asia. John is then, still in the introductory text, told by His vision of Christ, to write concerning events currently happening and what must soon take place thereafter. Thus it is entirely fair to understand that there is an immediate context, a reason and motivation to write. We are then introduced to the intended and original readership, seven churches located in Asia (Ephesus, Smyrna, Philadelphia, et al). This makes the text an encyclical, a letter intended to be circulated among the target churches.

That internal evidence suggest that

A) John is writing on Patmos, a prisoner there because of martyrdom.

B) John is writing primarily about current and soon-to-happen events.

C) John is writing to Christians living in Asia, suffering various trials and tribulations as evidenced in the epistolary material in chapters 2 and 3.

External evidence, such as from the histories we have, such as that from Eusebius of Caesarea who says that John wrote his apocalypse during the reign of Caesar Domitian, placing authorship in the last decade of the first century. We are also told that under Domitian's reign persecution broke out against both Jewish and Christian communities.

This further adds to the context of the Revelation, that it was written during a time of persecution, and that John is specifically writing to the churches in Asia enduring such persecution.

Additionally, while we cannot be certain which John wrote the Revelation, as there is some conflict as to whether St. John the Apostle is the same as John the Elder, or if they are different persons and whether or not either of them is the John of Patmos. Though it seems obvious that this John is intimate with the churches in Asia, perhaps making him an important person within the Christian communities there; possibly either the bishop or presbyter of Ephesus (which again, adds to the John the Apostle/John the Elder issue; in antiquity St. Justin Martyr says that John of Patmos is identical with St. John the Apostle and Evangelist, whereas Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome regard him to be John the Elder, a different John).

Given such a context, and that the text continually calls for Christians to endure until the end, it would make sense--therefore--to read it as a text for the persecuted communities in Asia and attempt to understand the cryptic language in light of that fact. That is, the underlying point of the text is to inspire hope and courage among the Christians in Asia, to point them toward the victory of God in Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and who will come again at the end of all things and lay all enemies at His feet. The same violent nations and powers which now oppress will, in the end, be judged at the Lord's coming in power and glory.

This is how I approach the Revelation, and it is (thus far) the least offensive way I've been able to do so without doing great injury by trying to commit grave acts of eisegesis to the text.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jpark

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Apocalyptic literature isn't intended to be read literally, it doesn't take a great stretch to see how those Christians to whom St. John was writing would readily understand what the Revelator was getting at, the Beast suffered a mortal wound and had come back.

-CryptoLutheran
Rev. 20:13-14 disagrees.

Rev. 20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades [the grave] gave up the dead which were in them [it]; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades [the grave] were [was] thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Take a look at Num. 16:29-34 and the result? The earth's mantle is the grave (Matt. 12:40).

Revelation is hardly history. Why post here?
Literal interpretation makes it all the more accurate and exciting.

Rev. 9:2-3 reveals the location of the lake of fire: the earth's core.

Rev. 20:13-14 reveals how the earth will be destroyed. When read with 2 Peter 3:10, this indicates that the solar system will simultaneously be destroyed.
 
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charsan2

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.

Yes I believe John was only speaking of him and Rome, man came along and said it has to be future
 
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precepts

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.
Nero was the 4th Roman Emperor, the Beast was the 8th, and contrary to popular belief, Revelation happens in heaven not on earth. Christ himself said his kingdom was not of this world, if it was then his servants would fight.

Maybe someone should of pointed this out to the crusaders who invaded Jerusalem approximately 1000yrs after the death of the 11th Roman Emperor, Nerva, the false prophet.

There are 3 resurrection, the first 2 occurs in heaven and the last is the wheat and tares harvest of the physical earth. The 2nd is the great white throne judgement, there's no throne judgement at the wheat and tares (3rd)resurrection when we will be carried into the new Jerusalem city (the barn). :angel:
 
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CryptoLutheran

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Counting Augustus as the first Roman emperor, Nero would be the fifth. "Five have fallen, the sixth now reigns"--Vespasian--"and the seventh will come after, but his reign will be brief", Titus reigned for only a couple years after his father died, and then his brother Domitian took over. Domitian would, in this counting, therefore classify as the eighth king and the beast.

That's at least one way of taking what John's writing in chapter 17 as regards to the mention of the seven kings and the eighth being the beast.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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precepts

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I'm confused because after I revealed Vespasian as the 8th emperor and Nerva as the 11th, plucking up Vespasian and his two sons, Wikipedia listed Julius Ceasar as the 1st. Something's not right.

The fact still remains that the timeline of 68ad would be the time of the 6th emperor, fulfilling John's prophecy of 5 fallen, the 6th was, and the 7th to come and continue a short space. Maybe I was mistaken but it seems strange that Wikipedia would list Julius Ceasar as the 1st emperor if I wasn't right the 1st time. I'll have to research it further but there is an attempt to hide the truth.:idea:
 
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Pilgrimer

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When Reading through Revelations in John's time, one could easily come to the conclusion that Nero is the antichrist. The number of his name is 666, he had images built of himself Rome is the city on seven hills like mentioned in revelations.
It all points to Rome.
Was John talking about Rome and Nero? Though Nero is dead and the Roman Empire is no more.
So Nero can't be him, unless he rises from the dead.

This book is not called "Revelation(s)" it is called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and is a book which covers the history of the coming and the work of Jesus Christ to earth as seen from a spiritual context.

The "beast" is not an individual, the beast is the Roman Empire. The Emperors are the "heads" of the beast. There were eight emperors that came after the time of Jesus, with Caligula being the first and the one who instituted emperor worship, having the heads of the various gods removed and replaced with his own, having temples built to himself and statues of himself placed in the temples throughout the empire which led to a confrontation with the Jews. When they refused to allow a statue of Caligula to be placed in the temple in Jerusalem, Caligula sent an army to forcefully place his stutue there and to slay all those Jews who opposed it. But the time had not yet arrived for the destruction of the Jewish nation and Caligula died before his orders could be carried out.

The eighth emperor was Titus, who was "of the seventh," that is he was the son of Vespasian, who was the seventh emperor after the instituion of the New Covenant and in the final days of the Old Covenant. And it was the army of Titus (the people of the prince) who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. At the time of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem Titus was a "prince," his father only just having been elevated to the imperial power. Afterward Titus became the emperor, the "eighth" and "of the seventh," that is Titus, the 8th emperor, was the son of Vespasian, the 7th emperor.

The Revelation is in fact a history book, but it is a behind the scenes look at history as it appears in the spirit, and the spiritual forces that were at work in the earth. Accordingly, the form these spiritual images actually take in the earth are not the same form in which they appear in the spirit. For example, the 7-headed beast with 10 horns was actually the Roman Empire during this period between the institution of the New Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant, and the woman identified as "Mystery Babylon," was the city of Jerusalem. The "scorpions" were the Roman siege engines called "scorpiones," which were rear-mounted quick-firers that shot arrows coated with pitch and set ablaze and were devastating to the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem, which as the Revelation states, lasted 5 months, ergo their "stingers were in their tails," etc.

The primary message of the Revelation is the triumph of Jesus Christ in his institution of the New Covenant and his bringing to an end the Old Covenant in exactly the manner and precisely the time foretold in the Old Testament, which is in itself proof written in the dust of the earth that Jesus is the Messiah.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Well, I'm not going to claim that my theory is final, because I change it every month, and I've heard as many theories on the book of revelation as there are people telling them. But here's some things I found out.

What I noticed is that the book of Daniel is very similar to the book of Revelation on the subject of beasts. The book of Daniel mentions four beasts, which are undoubtedly Assyrian/Babylonian, Persian, Greece, and Rome. The fourth beast is described to be unlike the previous three. It also was especially intolerant to the saints. The beast from the book of revelation looks strikingly similar to the fourth beast from the book of Daniel. Both mention that it had 10/11 kings. Interestingly, when the book of Revelation was written, Rome had its 10th and 11th emperors. In Revelation it says that when the 11th king rose, three of the previous ones where rooted out. The 11th Roman emperor rose after the previous 3 mysteriously died one after another, poisoning, they say. That emperor was Domitian, one of the most, if not the most Christian-hating emperor of Rome. The book of Revelation says he will continue with his destructive plans until the judges take away his power to destroy to the end. Historically, Diocletian was assassinated by the Roman judges. If he's not the antichrist, he's an antichrist, because he persecuted people who worshipped Christ, and demanded they worship him instead.

Titus, the 10th Roman Emperor was responsible for destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. That would be a good enough reason for Daniel to label the 10th king of the fourth kingdom as especially significant.

The book of Revelation was written for the people of the 1st century, I mean isn't it addressed to the 7 real historical churches in Asia? The question is, did it just apply to the first century, or to some future time as well?
 
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precepts

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Num 1:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first [day] of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying,

Num 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls;

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
4 angels number 200,000,000! Each angel is a host of 50,000,000 entities, or to put it in biblical terms, eyes!

Now count the number of the Beast, 666! :preach:
 
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dcyates

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does anyone realize Nero was dead years before Revelation was written, or at least the accepted date of which is it was written (around 90AD).
It's true that this is the generally accepted date of composition, but why is this so?
I know I certainly take a minority position on this, but I think there's good reason to believe that Revelation was written c. AD 70.
 
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