Another Consequence of the Dobbs decision...

[The Barbarian]

So, the argument is that the states having laws of the road mean they're forcing people to follow
those laws or get ticketed. We should just let people drive as they feel rather than obey the law.

People recognize those laws as good and worth following. Prohibition is an example of a law that most people don't consider to be worth following. With the inevitable consequences.

Direct abortion is the direct killing of a human life and it should be against the law.

This is an entirely reasonable position. Humans certainly have the right to life. At the minimum, a functioning human nervous system entails a human life. Much as I enjoy my Guinness and my Wild Turkey, I will readily admit that we would be better off as a society if there were no alcohol.
So why is Dobbs such a disaster for pro-life? Because it swings opinion against pro-life. If that changes in the future, I'd acknowledge that it was a good decision. But so far, it's harmed the cause of pro-life.

However, I'm not naive. We live in a political environment where outlawing all
direct abortions is never going to happen.

A social environment. Mark Twain once observed that laws are written in sand while culture is carved in stone.

We as a society are watching the collapse of our nation in order to allow immorality
to triumph over morality.

No kidding. We live in a time when one major party seems determined to run for president a candidate found by a court to be guilty of sexual assault.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

People recognize those laws as good and worth following. Prohibition is an example of a law that most people don't consider to be worth following. With the inevitable consequences.

And people do not recognize life as good, it's why abortion was voted in as an amendment to the state constitutions.
If Biden is reelected, and Congress swings to the Democrats, we may see an amendment made on the federal level.

 

[The Barbarian]

And people do not recognize life as good, it's why abortion was voted in as an amendment to the state constitutions.
If Biden is reelected, and Congress swings to the Democrats, we may see an amendment made on the federal level.

Seems unlikely. The rules for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution are stringent enough that it would never pass, unless Dobbs has a much bigger effect on the voters than I think it will.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Seems unlikely. The rules for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution are stringent enough that it would never pass, unless Dobbs has a much bigger effect on the voters than I think it will.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

However, if Congress comes under Democrat control, an amendment to the US Constitution making abortion a right
could happen.

 

[The Barbarian]

Seems unlikely. The rules for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution are stringent enough that it would never pass, unless Dobbs has a much bigger effect on the voters than I think it will.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

Me too.

However, if Congress comes under Democrat control, an amendment to the US Constitution making abortion a right
could happen.

Congress can propose such an amendment, but ratification is another matter. And one unlikely to happen unless (as I said) Dobbs has a much stronger affect on Americans than it has so far.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Congress can propose such an amendment, but ratification is another matter. And one unlikely to happen unless (as I said) Dobbs has a much stronger affect on Americans than it has so far.

Don't be so sure that it can't be ratified.

Many pollsters thought that the voters would vote against making abortion a right in their state's constitution, but they were wrong.

Members of society follow the immoral trends of the moment, not realizing that returning to freedom and morality are very difficult
and painful.

 

[Truth7t7]

I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

However, if Congress comes under Democrat control, an amendment to the US Constitution making abortion a right
could happen.

Never gonna happen

It takes 2/3 of both House/Senate or 3/4 of the 50 states to ratify the constitution, not gonna happen in our lifetime

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The GOP would be wise to read the tea leaves and shift from an extreme position. Roe was the compromise we need given the divide over abortion, and the general public is showing the extreme right's position is not viable.

Why would you concede power after a major victory? You consolidate what power you have in the states you control and keep the momentum going.

You only do this if you want to lose and actually secure abortion rights.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why would you concede power after a major victory? You consolidate what power you have in the states you control and keep the momentum going.

You only do this if you want to lose and actually secure abortion rights.

I Agree 100%

The US has had a liberal court for decades, now its a conservative super majority and the request is in can't we all just get along?

Your 100% correct, when the evil enemy is down you defeat him, don't let him up, the momentum is moving right, keep it going God speed

 

[public hermit]

Why would you concede power after a major victory? You consolidate what power you have in the states you control and keep the momentum going.

You only do this if you want to lose and actually secure abortion rights.

This isn't a game or a battle; it's a democracy based on the idea that the public decides the public weal. I realize that's uncomfortable for those who think they know what's best for everyone, paternalism et al. The court decision represents an agenda that voters appear to be rejecting. We'll see how it goes, but the idea that this is about power and control is part of the problem and very undemocratic.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This isn't a game or a battle; it's a democracy based on the idea that the public decides the public weal. I realize that's uncomfortable for those who think they know what's best for everyone, paternalism et al. The court decision represents an agenda that voters appear to be rejecting. We'll see how it goes, but the idea that this is about power and control is part of the problem and very undemocratic.

Well no, it's about power and pursuing your cause. If pro lifers did what you suggest they would lose. You might not like that they won via Dobbs and have reduced abortion in certain states but that was the goal. The goal of the pro life movement is to reduce abortion. You do that either federally or on a state level.

What you're essentially telling them to do is give up and accept the presence of abortion everywhere. You may like that, but that's not what the pro life movement wants nor would it be consistent with their goals. You support Roe V Wade right? Why do you support a decision which was not arrived at on the basis of democratic ideals but the legal opinions of Elite judges? Shouldn't you be opposed to Roe?

 

[public hermit]

Well no, it's about power and pursuing your cause. If pro lifers did what you suggest they would lose. You might not like that they won via Dobbs and have reduced abortion in certain states but that was the goal. The goal of the pro life movement is to reduce abortion. You do that either federally or on a state level.

What you're essentially telling them to do is give up and accept the presence of abortion everywhere. You may like that, but that's not what the pro life movement wants nor would it be consistent with their goals. You support Roe V Wade right? Why do you support a decision which was not arrived at on the basis of democratic ideals but the legal opinions of Elite judges? Shouldn't you be opposed to Roe?

I'm saying compromise. In too many states, the GOP is taking an extreme position that is not commensurate with the will of the general public. But maybe it will be good if they platform themselves into obscurity. Good riddance. We don't need extremists or religious zealots trying to control people. And, it appears, most folks don't want that, either.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm saying compromise. In too many states, the GOP is taking an extreme position that is not commensurate with the will of the general public. But maybe it will be good if they platform themselves into obscurity. Good riddance. We don't need extremists or religious zealots trying to control people. And, it appears, most folks don't want that, either.

You seem to think that the will of the people matters in politics. It doesn't. Demcracy is not sacred and the people typically bend to those who are in power. You say you don't want religious zealots controlling people, but secularist zealots are totally fine and you only advocate for democratic principles when your cause fails, such as Dobbs but don't want democratic principles when an agenda you like succeeds, that is with the original Roe decision.

Don't pretend to be a friend of the pro life movement. You're pro choice, you're an enemy to the pro life movement. So I understand why you might wish to sabotage your enemies, but it's not honest.

I have no idea if it will doom the pro life cause into irrelevance though. There is a strong core of support for the movement and given pro life successes over the years I don't think it's going to dissappear anytime soon. Though the more progressive Republicans in power may desire that. Already there are questionable stances taken by supposedly pro life organizations and people.

 

[public hermit]

I have no idea if it will doom the pro life cause into irrelevance though. There is a strong core of support for the movement and given pro life successes over the years I don't think it's going to dissappear anytime soon. Though the more progressive Republicans in power may desire that. Already there are questionable stances taken by supposedly pro life organizations and people

This is my point. If the GOP wants to have power in terms of this issue, they're going to have to compromise. Those "questionable stances" are pragmatic toward the end of securing and maintaining power. The irony in all this is if we ever settle this issue to the liking of all involved, it will probably look similar to Roe.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is my point. If the GOP wants to have power in terms of this issue, they're going to have to compromise. Those "questionable stances" are pragmatic toward the end of securing and maintaining power. The irony in all this is if we ever settle this issue to the liking of all involved, it will probably look similar to Roe.

Depends on the compromise. If for instance they compromise with pro choicers that abortion can be used as a means of birth control they will seriously damage themselves with the pro life movement. There are pragmatic considerations for the GOP but what I had more in mind was the pro life movement in of itself. Once you have momentum, you keep the ball rolling. Success builds on success. You don't stop. Your advice would have pro life people and groups lose by conceding to moderates when they have some sway and power.

 

[public hermit]

Depends on the compromise. If for instance they compromise with pro choicers that abortion can be used as a means of birth control they will seriously damage themselves with the pro life movement. There are pragmatic considerations for the GOP but what I had more in mind was the pro life movement in of itself. Once you have momentum, you keep the ball rolling. Success builds on success. You don't stop. Your advice would have pro life people and groups lose by conceding to moderates when they have some sway and power.

Well, we'll see. I think the momentum for the pro life position has reached its zenith with this decision. What we need is a law, and that's going to take political pragmatism.

 

[The Barbarian]

Why would you concede power after a major victory?

The point is, the Dobbs decision was a turn-around for pro-abortion forces. It scared people, and as you have seen, pro-life opinion has declined as a result. Sometimes, forces is exactly the wrong way to work for justice. Ask the opponents of Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

It's not a football game.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The point is, the Dobbs decision was a turn-around for pro-abortion forces. It scared people, and as you have seen, pro-life opinion has declined as a result. Sometimes, forces is exactly the wrong way to work for justice. Ask the opponents of Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

It's not a football game.

Power is a game of momentum and you only concede the momentum when you don't have the will to press further. Yes anti Christian and pro abortion forces will react, but so what? Fight them all the harder. Consolidate power, don't hand it over to your enemy.

 

[The Barbarian]

Power is a game of momentum and you only concede the momentum when you don't have the will to press further.

Maybe if you looked at it as a question of doing right, instead of "how we can beat the other team" it would become more clear for you.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Maybe if you looked at it as a question of doing right, instead of "how we can beat the other team" it would become more clear for you.

Is the right thing supporting your pro choice policy position?