Annihilation=No Wrath

[FredVB]

The Bible is not talking about annihilation of souls in any passages, there is destruction that is still consistent with everlasting justice. It is not wrath, and imagery to show what happens to those who reject Christ as the way that they trust and serve him does not mean they would be burning. Justice will be fair for souls that were made for always continuing, though God means and provided for the unending continuation our souls have to be with blissful relationship with God, even though it won't be with that otherwise, the unhappiness that will be suffered will be the just and fair amount that would always be continuing for the sinful life in this world, that what Christ suffered would have covered to deliver them from that eternity. It was meaningful to Christ to do that but not as meaningful to do that for anything less.

 

[FredVB]

There still has to be God's justice

 

[Halbhh]

There still has to be God's justice

The words describing the destruction of human souls in the "second death" are from Christ who worded it as "destroy body and soul" and "kill the soul" (Matthew 10:28) -- and this is an entire punishment of sin. (and an eternal punishment: it's forever)

They will go there with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and also continuing there until destroyed.

The wages of sin is death.

(this isn't a theory; it's what God has said to us via His inspired Word to us -- Romans 6:23

Humans that will "perish" will then truly die, as they do not have eternal life.

But none need perish if they will turn to Christ in faith, repenting of their sins and rely on Him for redemption:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The words describing the destruction of human souls in the "second death" are from Christ who worded it as "destroy body and soul" and "kill the soul" (Matthew 10:28) -- and this is an entire punishment of sin. (and an eternal punishment: it's forever)

They will go there with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and also continuing there until destroyed.

The wages of sin is death.

(this isn't a theory; it's what God has said to us via His inspired Word to us -- Romans 6:23

Humans that will "perish" will then truly die, as they do not have eternal life.

But none need perish if they will turn to Christ in faith, repenting of their sins and rely on Him for redemption:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

And yet we don't know death's place in existence. Do we know enough to declare that it means an end to existence, or can it mean a continual existence without any virtue or presence of God; or maybe even a completely non-time related intensity of torment?

 

[JulieB67]

Do we know enough to declare that it means an end to existence,

In the OT, it refers to the wicked being consumed turned to ashes/stubble which would certainly indicate they are as Christ states destroyed "fully" when you take it back to the Greek. That and what we know of God's nature (not even willing that any should perish/takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked) tells me that they are destroyed/suffering eternal destruction rather than eternal life in hell.

 

[Halbhh]

And yet we don't know death's place in existence. Do we know enough to declare that it means an end to existence, or can it mean a continual existence without any virtue or presence of God; or maybe even a completely non-time related intensity of torment?

This is where the wording Christ chose in Matthew ch 10, v 28 might answer that for us, regarding humans that will perish in the second death. Let's see several of the more literal translations and also the Greek:

English Standard Version
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Literal Bible
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Young's Literal Translation
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Some Greek Words from the verse at BibleHub:

kill
ἀποκτεννόντων (apoktennontōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 615: To put to death, kill; fig: I abolish. From apo and kteino; to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy.

soul.
ψυχὴν (psychēn)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 5590: From psucho; breath, i.e. spirit, abstractly or concretely.

fear
φοβεῖσθε (phobeisthe)
Verb - Present Imperative Middle or Passive - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 5399: From phobos; to frighten, i.e. to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e. Revere.

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

hell.
γεέννῃ (geennē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1067: Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In the OT, it refers to the wicked being consumed turned to ashes/stubble which would certainly indicate they are as Christ states destroyed "fully" when you take it back to the Greek. That and what we know of God's nature (not even willing that any should perish/takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked) tells me that they are destroyed/suffering eternal destruction rather than eternal life in hell.

So, 'logical' deduction and inference, not exactly denominated scripture reference... Just a note: We are not endowed with wisdom to know the meaning of all scripture uses of common human words. Our concepts are insufficient to draw an end to what God calls life, or death. We assume much.

 

[JulieB67]

We assume much.

Not really. I think it's a rather safe assumption when I think of the wicked being ashes, the death of the soul being the second death and the former things passing away.

 

[Diamond7]

And yet we don't know death's place in existence.

We do know that something can not stay alive if God is not a part of it.

 

[Diamond7]

We are not endowed with wisdom to know the meaning of all scripture uses of common human words.

There are rules we follow for Bible interpretation. Also the Kabbala or Rabbi have a way of understanding and interpretation. People do not know how much the oral tradition is a part of our written Bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We do know that something can not stay alive if God is not a part of it.

I agree it cannot exist, if God does not uphold it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are rules we follow for Bible interpretation. Also the Kabbala or Rabbi have a way of understanding and interpretation. People do not know how much the oral tradition is a part of our written Bible.

Of course! I have not said otherwise. Nevertheless, we cannot see the facts that God does, nor can we see what facts we do see, from God's point of view. OUR point of view is necessarily stunted.

 

[Diamond7]

Nevertheless, we cannot see the facts that God does,

I attended a church where the pastor preached 365 sermons on the mind of Christ. He came up with 365 quotes from the Bible about different aspects of the Mind of Christ. WE can know the divine thoughts of God. For example love one another Just as Jesus loves us. We can not have the mind of Christ if we do not love one another. I still have the notes from those sermons around here somewhere. One women gave me a list of what each sermon was about.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I attended a church where the pastor preached 365 sermons on the mind of Christ. He came up with 365 quotes from the Bible about different aspects of the Mind of Christ. WE can know the divine thoughts of God. For example love one another Just as Jesus loves us. We can not have the mind of Christ if we do not love one another. I still have the notes from those sermons around here somewhere. One women gave me a list of what each sermon was about.

Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[contratodo]

Fear not him that can kill the body and after has nothing more he can do,
fear Him that can kill both body and soul in hell fire. Matthew 10:28

The lake of fire is called the second death.
And it is said that those in the first resurrection can not be hurt by the second death. Revelation 20:6

God will destroy this whole world by divine fire, the sky, the sea and everything. 2 Peter 3:8-12, Revelation 19:21, Revelation 20:9
Resulting in a lake of divine fire.

Putting scripture together we understand that the lake of fire can destroy souls,
and that lake is the result of this world being destroyed.
As the world is burning, the city of heaven comes down,
the saints will be able to walk through the fire and enter the city, tried by fire.

Those outside the city live with eternal burning.

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us will dwell with everlasting burnings?" Isaiah 33:14

I think that the resulting lava has the ability to cause non existence,
and one can choose to jump in and painfully go to non existence,
but most will choose to keep on existing even though in great pain.
Some will be on rocks and little pieces of land,
some will be thrown directly into the lava from the start.

 

[Diamond7]

Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

1corinthians 2:16 “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

You are quoting your Bible out of context to create what looks like a contradiction.

Isaiah 55: 7Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon. 8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

Go to verse 7 and we see that Isaiah is addressing the unrighteous. NOT the righteous. To suggest that the RIGHTEOUS can not have the mind of Christ and know the divine thoughts of God is simply NOT what the Bible teaches us.

I have 365 scriptures that talk about what it means to have the Mind of Christ. I am sure there are more. If God has a point to make there will be two or three thousand scriptures. For example there are many scriptures that talk about the Love God has for us and the Love we are to have for one another and even love for our enemy.

Going back to your scripture IF the unrighteous is to forsake his own thoughts, just what thoughts is he to have if it is NOT the DIvine thoughts of God. We are to be clothed in righteousness. We take off the old and put on the new. We get comfortable with our old clothing and even it is wore out we still want to wear it. We need to throw those old rags away and put on the new, put on the righteousness of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

1corinthians 2:16 “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

You are quoting your Bible out of context to create what looks like a contradiction.

So are you!

Isaiah 55: 7Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon. 8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

Go to verse 7 and we see that Isaiah is addressing the unrighteous. NOT the righteous. To suggest that the RIGHTEOUS can not have the mind of Christ and know the divine thoughts of God is simply NOT what the Bible teaches us.

Nice. So you claim to have God's thoughts? Or only some of them? If you do, are they humanly derived and understood, or only within the context of the indwelling Spirit of God, who alone, being God himself, knows the mind of God.

Is the temporal human mind capable of God's thoughts?

I have 365 scriptures that talk about what it means to have the Mind of Christ. I am sure there are more. If God has a point to make there will be two or three thousand scriptures. For example there are many scriptures that talk about the Love God has for us and the Love we are to have for one another and even love for our enemy.

Obviously. So what makes you call that knowing God's mind? Even in English, having the mind of Christ does not mean understanding the depth and breadth of all truth. Contextually it is referring to wisdom —not knowledge— and by the very structure of the verse, it is in contrast to knowing everything God knows. You keep arguing about knowledge, but referencing wisdom to make your point.

Going back to your scripture IF the unrighteous is to forsake his own thoughts, just what thoughts is he to have if it is NOT the DIvine thoughts of God. We are to be clothed in righteousness. We take off the old and put on the new. We get comfortable with our old clothing and even it is wore out we still want to wear it. We need to throw those old rags away and put on the new, put on the righteousness of God.

I have not even begun to say that we, the regenerated believers, do not have what the Spirit does in us, to include the very Word of God. Of course it is Divinity! What are you going on about? Red Herring.

 

[Diamond7]

Nice. So you claim to have God's thoughts?

We have the mind of Christ. Philippians: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"

11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us 1corinthians2:11

Through the spirit of God we know the divine thoughts of God.

Job 15:8
Do you listen in on the council of God or limit wisdom to yourself?

 

[FredVB]

The words describing the destruction of human souls in the "second death" are from Christ who worded it as "destroy body and soul" and "kill the soul" (Matthew 10:28) -- and this is an entire punishment of sin. (and an eternal punishment: it's forever)

They will go there with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and also continuing there until destroyed.

The wages of sin is death.

(this isn't a theory; it's what God has said to us via His inspired Word to us -- Romans 6:23

Humans that will "perish" will then truly die, as they do not have eternal life.

But none need perish if they will turn to Christ in faith, repenting of their sins and rely on Him for redemption:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The wording there is the power to kill souls. God has that power, not anyone else. But death in the Bible is still about separation, though there are different kinds of separation. There can be separation from our body. There can also be separation from God. But being cast to where we would be in misery in fair consequence to our life of all our sins without repentance would be perishing, and nothing more about it lasting is needing to be read into that. There are other passages to find anything about that. To not come to that we need to be delivered, which we would be in Christ with the repentant faith, that there will be restoration with the changed life. It can only be called life with what we have in the eternal and everlasting future with Christ. The misery that is alternative to that wouldn't be called a life.

 

[Halbhh]

The wording there is the power to kill souls. God has that power, not anyone else. But death in the Bible is still about separation, though there are different kinds of separation. There can be separation from our body. There can also be separation from God. But being cast to where we would be in misery in fair consequence to our life of all our sins without repentance would be perishing, and nothing more about it lasting is needing to be read into that. There are other passages to find anything about that. To not come to that we need to be delivered, which we would be in Christ with the repentant faith, that there will be restoration with the changed life. It can only be called life with what we have in the eternal and everlasting future with Christ. The misery that is alternative to that wouldn't be called a life.

This might be an enjoyable post. I'm thinking it should be.

Suppose you and I had never read one word or heard one sentence in the bible (or just heard a few wonderful sentences like John 3:16)....

So, we have no knowledge at all of what is actually said in the Bible. We'd have to guess at a lot of things or perhaps come up with ideas based on knowing only some things we'd heard about what is in the Bible (having an incomplete idea of what it has on any topic like this one)

Ok?

And then suppose, knowing very little then of what all is the the text, someone came and surveyed us to ask us:

----------
Survey to non Bible readers:

For the evil people of the world that do evil and never repent, do you think God will:

A) remove the evil people to another universe or such, so that they cannot harm us anymore, and must make their own way somewhere else and can never get to us

OR

B) punish them fairly, and then see who reforms....and then kill the rest

OR

C) change everyone to become good by mental surgery or something like that, and then save them into eternal life

OR

D) some other unknown process or combination of things He can think of but is hard for us to imagine....

OR

E) punish them more lengthily for rejecting God, because they have rejected what is infinitely Good....

OR

F) fill in your own imaginative answer

-------------------

If we'd not read much in the Bible at all, then how might we answer?
If we can imagine not knowing anything except only that God sent Christ to save us and suffer for us so that we can believe in Christ and will be saved, and we've heard a few wonderful Psalms maybe, and heard that God is good, which totally fits how we feel....


Trying to imagine not having read what I've read, I think I'd say something like:

"'A' and 'B' seems it can fit how we believe God exists and is good and just and must be fair then. 'C' seems...odd to me. 'E' isn't fitting Justice in that we also at times didn't repent or trust God now and then for a while, but we are saved and so should they suffer forever?...., and we have at least heard that God is Good and Just. But, about all of this, I don't really know! So, I bet probably 'D' is more likely then....."

How would you answer?

--------------

Now, in spite of how I might have answered any such survey having never read the Bible, I'm older and in a different place than that, and have read it through fully. And I remember what I've read, so that I am compelled to narrow my ideas down to what fits what I've read. I can't just ignore Matthew 10:28 for example. In reality, I'm going to do the opposite of ignoring any verse -- I'm going to consider what can fit every verse.

Every.

Not just 8 verses.

Not even just 12 verses.

No.

Every verse. It's just what I must do. Maybe I get this from Matthew 4.

I really do believe, so when He says this I believe it: Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’"

So, there it is -- that's why I have to conclude they really do die in the second death, because I cannot set aside all the verses like Matthew 10:28, Romans 6:23 and so on.



But I can tolerate that others think differently! Here's why:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14 - New International Version

The Weak and the Strong - Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the...

www.biblegateway.com