Am I still a "Christian"?

[Lily of Valleys]

In fact, part of why I feel so bad is I wonder if maybe I have angered God so much by my sin and that is why I don't feel Him. Most Christians tell me that this is a lie from hell. However, believe me, I have done everything you said that a Christian does. However, due to mental and emotional issues, including addictions, I struggle with some of the same sins daily (some for almost 20 years). So, I have tried repenting but as far as not habitually sinning, no.

Sin (especially habitual sin) can actually cause blockage in our communication with God:

If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear (Psalm 66:18 NASB)​

It is like us keep doing something our loved ones hate. When we know that it is something God doesn't approve, we feel guilt. It is like Adam and Eve had to hide from God when they had committed a sin against God. The longer we let this go on, it will eventually affect our relationship with God and give the devil a foothold, which will open up to more sins, more issues and more confusion.

We are not able to overcome sin by our flesh. Only the Holy Spirit has that power. The only way to overcome sin is to submit ourselves to God. When I say "submit", it means "total surrender". It means to let God resolve it His way, not our own way. It means we no longer hold onto the sin, and are willing to let go of it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sin (especially habitual sin) can actually cause blockage in our communication with God:

If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear (Psalm 66:18 NASB)​

It is like us keep doing something our loved ones hate. When we know that it is something God doesn't approve, we feel guilt.

People can feel inappropriate guilt, too. Feelings are not always an indicator of our status before God. More often than not, they are simply culturally and psychologically conditioned responses.

 

[FireDragon76]

You need to stay focused on Jesus and get rid of the legacy of thousands of years of spiritual manipulation by many of Jesus' so-called "followers".

This is a good book for somebody like you coming from an evangelical background with alot of questions.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004WDYKHU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I liked this book too, and deals with similar themes of coming out of religious legalism:
https://www.amazon.com/Pastrix-Cran...e=UTF8&qid=1520067052&sr=1-1&keywords=pastrix

 

[patrick jane]

You need to stay focused on Jesus and get rid of the legacy of thousands of years of spiritual manipulation by many of Jesus' so-called "followers".

This is a good book for somebody like you coming from an evangelical background with alot of questions.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004WDYKHU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

I liked this book, too, and deals with similar themes of coming out of religious legalism:
https://www.amazon.com/Pastrix-Cran...e=UTF8&qid=1520067052&sr=1-1&keywords=pastrix

Legalism is a plague on the body of Christ.

It would be easier to remove if there was not so much confusion about what it is. Most only have a vague idea.

Anymore, if someone is telling you to do good works, they are labeled a legalist.
If someone is disciplined, wakes up to an alarm clock, dresses modestly, or has a practice of abstaining from anything (especially sin), they are called a legalist and told to loosen up.
If your mom tells you to clean your room and wash behind your ears, then mom becomes a legalist and a tyrant.
Whoever says, “thou shalt not” and “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” is a legalist.

Something is awry with how people diagnose legalism. Misidentifying what is legalism allows legalism to fester if there are looser laws, and at other times teachers of truth are wrongly misaken for legalists and rejected.

How can this be? The unbending nature of truth can be confused with the law’s binding of the flesh, and if you are not discerning, truth is thrown out with the legalistic bathwater.

Legalism is not narrow mindedness, correction, rebuke, or strict adherence to the truth of God. Running from these things will lead you to a worse place than legalism.

Legalism is when the motivation and means of Christian living is from the law.

Legalism speaks to how people live for the Lord. Legalists use the law as their means. How do you live? According to the law righteousness comes through doing the law (Deu 6:25; Matt 5:17-19).

Legalism teaches that sinful behavior or wrong belief can be made right by imposing laws.

The law fails at producing what it desires, because it can only force people to obey with fear from an outside force acting upon them: the law.

The wrong way to oppose legalism would be to merely reduce the number of laws. Some of the most dangerous legalists will say only two laws are required (Mark 12:29-31). This is still legalism.

Whether it is hundreds of laws or just two, the person is still under the dominion of the law and not operating under grace.

Grace teaches us that we are not under the law (Rom 6:14).

Those who live by grace understand that “now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested” (Rom 3:21).

The solution to legalism is not merely reducing the number of laws it is righteousness without the law: an altogether different means by grace through faith. This is not a diminishing of law, but a removal of law.

A lack of laws was never the problem. This means the law can never be the means for us to live for the Lord. The problem is internal.

Sin is the problem. God’s grace pays for sin. Grace kills sin.

Legalism binds the flesh with the law, but grace nails the flesh to the cross with the Lord (Rom 6:3-4; Gal 6:14).

Grace succeeds where the law fails, because it operates through faith from the inner man. The truth of God’s grace must start from the inside out.

The common fear among legalists is that removing the law will produce more sin, but the opposite is true.

Grace does not allow sin, give permission to sin, or makes us free to sin. Grace teaches us to live godly, walk in newness of life, and to live righteously (Titus 2:13). Adding the law causes sin to abound, and many times it gives sin places to hide behind where the law is silent (Rom 5:20).

Grace and the law both try to produce the same thing: good behavior and good works (Eph 2:10; Titus 2:14). The difference is not always a difference in the action or the outcome; the difference exists in the means and motivation for doing the good.

Forcing someone to do something against their will as does the law, does not change their inner man.

Grace produces what the law could not (Rom 8:3-4). The law requires the flesh to perform. The grace of God gives the soul something to believe.

Grace ordains men unto good works before they’ve done one (Eph 2:10). Through faith their hearts can purpose to do good works willingly as God’s word works effectually in every believer.

Grace changes the motivation of the inner man from fear and force to faith, hope, and charity (Rom 8:15). Faith, hope, and charity are reaped by sowing grace truth to the inner man.

This is why grace requires a narrow mind (a sound mind) and strict adherence to truth to maintain. Truth works in your mind and your inner man.

Truth must be affirmed and upheld (1 Tim 3:15). The truth of God’s grace cannot be mixed with the weakness of the law. We are told to hold fast, and we do so by a strength of faith not the legalistic chain of the law.

Conviction, correction, narrow mindedness toward the truth, and avoiding error is not legalism if it is motivated by grace. It can be the product of willing hearts by faith doing the will of God, letting God be true, and “teaching no other doctrine” (1 Tim 1:3).

Legalism does not require a strict adherence to what you believe, only how you behave. Legalism cannot control your mind, but always controls your flesh.

Legalism uses the law and starts to work on the outer man. Grace uses the cross of Christ and begins the work on the inner man.

Don’t throw out the truth while trying to remove legalism in the church. One is a blessing, the other is a curse.

Top of the Page
Article IndexPublished: November 18, 2017
Last Modified: November 23, 2017
Related posts:

1. 
   -What No Law Can Do
   -Kill Sin With Grace
   -Grace and Legalism
   -The Most Common Response to Grace
   -When Grace Abounds
   -By Faith and Through Faith
   -Ten Commandments Are Too Much

 

[Lily of Valleys]

People can feel inappropriate guilt, too. Feelings are not always an indicator of our status before God. More often than not, they are simply culturally and psychologically conditioned responses.

That's why we should base our faith on God's word, instead of on our feelings, which can fluctuate from time to time.

 

[Kenny'sID]

People of goodwill use reason and evidence, not presumed authority or fear, to persuade others of their viewpoint.

Shoot the messenger with meaningless accusations in order to dismiss the wake up call if you choose to, it's expected.

This is just hollow fundamentalist rhetoric to slander those who do not agree with your narrow, fear-driven religion.

Denial...it's alive, well, and as strong as I personally have ever seen in my life..

To the OP, this is side thing that has nothing to do with you. Apologies for the disruption but concern for our fellow man made it important, even critical.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Feelings of guilt, or any feelings for that matter are God given for a reason, and we can depend on them to a point, even if they just get us thinking. Yes they can be confused at times, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong. That's what I mean by "even if they just get us thinking". God given feelings, along with God give logic, work together to help us sort things out.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Anymore, if someone is telling you to do good works, they are labeled a legalist.

And the worse part of that is the *reason* they label others as legalists...because they don't want to do good works themselves. Even further than that, they justify the idea by seeking out preachers, people, books, of like mind that push/help them justify the nonsense, and the next thing they know they actually believe they can do as thy wish, a completely against the bible doctrine that will end very badly for them. They weren't tricked, and there was no sincere misunderstanding, their selfish wants are what led them to accept false doctrine, so it's all on them in the end, and all because they didn't want to do what God said to do, yet still get to heaven.

PetraFan007, the point is, when we start listening to teachings that are against the bible like the Universalism/no Hell thing you mentioned, we can and will find a way to believe the lies because there is always someone out there to help us share the delusion. These groups of people spend a lot of time seeking out parts of the bible they can twist, when the over all message of the bible makes is completely clear they are wrong. Their theology can never stand up to real scrutiny, seen it here on the boards, but it's just enough to make those that choose to believe the lies, do so..

The thing about these delusions people choose to believe, if you will notice, they're always something that is more attractive than the word of God, whether it be it OSAS, something that allows us to do as we please and still go to heaven, and as mentioned, even make the good works we are commanded to do, a bad thing, and those deluded cannot even see how bizarre a thought that is...completely blinded themselves.. Or Universalism, something that does away with hell completely, and in turn, means we can live it up and sin all we like and there is no hell, so not to worry...same basic end result for both, and both just exactly the type thing Satan loves to push, and some are chomping at the bite to believe.

I'm just using the fact you'd rather not believe in Hell as a blanket point to try to maybe help with your contrary beliefs. Most can certainly understand why one would not want to believe in hell, for themselves, their loves ones, all kinds of reasons...all selfish but some not as selfish as others. However you know the bible is clear on that, and only if you want to be confused into believing different, can that happen, and again, there are plenty of people to help you believe whatever you wish to.

You say you don't understand how such a loving God can send people to hell, but first we need to realize hell may not be exactly what we think. Hell is one thing that I feel is left a bit sketchy by God. He loves us enough, he wants us to be frightened into not going there, and God doesn't lie but he might depend on our imagination to help things along. And that's not to say it's not a bad place, it is, and maybe everything we think it is..

Also, as far as God not being fair, I see it this way, God is like our Father here on earth, he threatens spanking at some point in order to get our attention and brings us up in a way to make our lives better. God doesn't force, not generally, or right now anyway, like our parents did, but he made our parents the way they are, told them "Spare the rod, spoil the child" so in affect he does force, at least while we are young. Now you may say, but our parents would never toss us into Hell for an eternity, and you would probably be right. The big difference in God and our parents is God is much more extreme in both directions, while being more loving, is dead serious about wanting us to listen to him. The treats of Hell are out of pure love and something God himself I'm sure wishes were not necessary, just as a parent wishes it were not necessary to spank their child but he does it because he wants out attention an if it were possible, for none to perish.

Why does sin have to have that penalty to begin with? I have no doubt there is a very good reason, and things that I don't understand completely, or when I try to understand them in a way that I want as mentioned earlier, I think of some of the wisest words in the bible. It's ok to doubt things as we think about them, at least temporarily, but when drawing concrete conclusions, I have to end up at:

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Trusting in him is essentially trusting in his word, and the things I don't understand, I go with what he says over anything/anyone else.

God cares, he cares a lot. He cared enough to create us, and cares enough to do everything possible to see that we live forever. He asks very little of us at present, just one day a week to remember him, and the rest is up to us. I'd say all in all it's a pretty good deal, and no need to believe anything but what the Bible says is true. Even if we don't like it, it doesn't matter, it's his way or the highway, and I personally think he earned that right.

It is what it is, and we can rebel against it forever if we like, but that won't change a thing. So, my recommendation is to go with the flow, Gods specific flow, and don't let people who choose to change that flow for their own selfish reasons affect you. Stay away from them and their teachings, and go with God exclusively.

 

[patrick jane]

And the worse part of that is the *reason* they label others as legalists...because they don't want to do good works themselves. Even further than that, they justify the idea by seeking out preachers, people, books, of like mind that push/help them justify the nonsense, and the next thing they know they actually believe they can do as thy wish, a completely against the bible doctrine that will end very badly for them. They weren't tricked, and there was no sincere misunderstanding, their selfish wants are what led them to accept false doctrine, so it's all on them in the end, and all because they didn't want to do what God said to do, yet still get to heaven.

PetraFan007, the point is, when we start listening to teachings that are against the bible like the Universalism/no Hell thing you mentioned, we can and will find a way to believe the lies because there is always someone out there to help us share the delusion. These groups of people spend a lot of time seeking out parts of the bible they can twist, when the over all message of the bible makes is completely clear they are wrong. Their theology can never stand up to real scrutiny, seen it here on the boards, but it's just enough to make those that choose to believe the lies, do so..

I don't preach universalism but Christ crucified, buried and risen - DBR and the gospel of grace. The gospel of salvation. Works are as filthy rags. Are you earning your way to heaven? Helping Jesus Christ out because He didn't do enough? You may be a worker bee, and there's nothing wrong with that but it won't save you. Many people will say. . .

 

[patrick jane]

Good works are the result of being In Christ.

Galatians 2:20 KJV - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


OF the Son - His faith is what counts most of all.

Matthew 17:20 KJV - And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

YOUR Faith does not save you or get you to Heaven.

 

[FireDragon76]

I never said how people live doesn't matter. That's a strawman that some religious conservatives use against us, that we are "antinomian".

Our good works do not justify us before God in any way. However, we should do good works because we live in a world where real people, who are loved by God, have real needs as human beings. The sort of things Christ points to in Matthew 25:31–46. Christ's words and ethic points us to true good works that are not defined by religion (the logic of the goats) but by human need.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Good works are the result of being In Christ.

But not necessary in your view to make it to heaven....right? You and those you learned that mess from take legalism out of context, and what's worse, teach it to others, something I would be scared to death to do.

That's not what Christ told the Goats in the parable of the Sheep/goats...he was very very clear on what needed to be done and what happened if it was not.

Are you earning your way to heaven? Helping Jesus Christ out because He didn't do enough?.

Classic OSAS dirty tricks that have no validity whatsoever. As I mentioned in my post, those guilt trips only work on those that want to buy the fact one can do whatever they like and still be saved. Why? because it's attractive...simple as that, and what you choose over what the bible teaches, but I already covered all that in the post, and won't air it out here, hijacking the OP's thread.

Start your own thread or read the many here already on OSAS.

 

[aiki]

Don't think for a moment that I don't consider every side of this issue. In fact, part of why I feel so bad is I wonder if maybe I have angered God so much by my sin and that is why I don't feel Him. Most Christians tell me that this is a lie from hell.

Sin unconfessed and unrepented of creates a separation between the Christian believer and their God. (Isaiah 59:2) The first casualty of our sin is always intimate, joyful fellowship with God. A sinning believer never loses their relationship to God, however, but enjoying Him, experiencing the peace, and joy, and contentment that comes in living a holy, righteous life before God, is impossible - especially when we live in habitual, willful sin.

However, due to mental and emotional issues, including addictions, I struggle with some of the same sins daily (some for almost 20 years). So, I have tried repenting but as far as not habitually sinning, no.

And this is a perfect example of why proper discipleship is so necessary. Struggling with the same sin after twenty years of living as a believer is a terrible tragedy! And it reveals a profound misunderstanding of how to walk with God toward an ever more sanctified life (which is the natural course of Christian living).

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

2 Timothy 2:21-22
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Here is my biggest dilemma: Everyone has a different opinion and/or interpretation of the bible. I ask a question, I get an answer from many people. Each one unique in its own way. I am told that my interpretation is wrong and to read the bible or get disciplined. However, when I read the bible, I get an understanding of it that I feel is right. Then I check it with someone else. I'm BOUND to have someone disagree with what I got out of it. Someone can tell me that I am wrong because the Holy Spirit told them so. Or that they are just so very sure. However, I cannot speak with the original writers to confirm if YOU are right are wrong. So, in the end, it's ALL HUMANS who are giving me the answer. I NEVER can know who to trust. So, I have come to learn that if I have the right intentions to learn the truth, that God will give that to me. And no matter WHAT, someone is going to disagree with me.

And this thinking is going to lead you to disaster.

I was talking with a young man recently about this very same thing. I said to him that I have seen in my years driving my car that people have different interpretations of what "STOP" means. I have observed cars approaching a four-way stop and watched some barely slow at all, others almost come to a stop but not quite, still others stop completely, pause, and then proceed when its their turn, and some I've seen come to a total halt some twenty feet back from the stop sign and then slowly creep forward 'til they've reached the sign and then stop again. So, who's obeying the "STOP" sign correctly? Is it impossible to know what the "STOP" sign means because of the multitude of various interpretations of it? I can tell you that the police officers who wait at the four-way stops to catch bad drivers don't think so. "Stop" means exactly what it says: stop, come to a complete halt. And when drivers fail to obey the plain meaning of the "STOP" sign, the police are very quick to give them a ticket for doing so.

You see, not all interpretations of the "STOP" sign that drivers adopt are equally valid. In fact, only one interpretation of the sign is the right one. Likewise, much of the Bible is not open to a wide spectrum of interpretation. The plain, straightforward, natural meaning of the text is very often the right one. When the Bible says, for example, "Jesus wept," it means exactly what it says; when the Bible says, "Thou shalt not lie," it means precisely what it says; when the Bible declares, "God created the heavens and the earth," it means just what it says. Yes, there are portions of Scripture that take some work to make sense of, that are subtle and complex in their meaning; but it is a mistake to think that all of Scripture is so arcane that any meaning a person wants to give it will do. Many interpretations of Scripture are simply foolish and mistaken. They are arrived at without careful study, or the application of a reasonable hermeneutic, or an awareness of the idiosyncracies of biblical languages, or of the context of culture. Often people just "go with their gut," they let their own philosophies, preferences and fantasies color what they see in the Bible and, as you'd expect, they go very wide of the mark in understanding what the Bible actually says.

In my neck of the woods, I don't see the wide sweep of interpretation that you seem to think is common to Christians. Among the evangelical Protestant Christian churches in my city there is far more that they hold in common doctrinally than they disagree on. Baptists, Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, mainline Pentecostals, Presbyterian and many non-denominational churches espouse the very same fundamental doctrines concerning God, soteriology, the authority, inspiration and sufficiency of Scripture, the purpose of the Church, moral behaviour, and the eventual return of Christ.

The simplest, best way to sift through the morass of frequently off-base interpretations is to make yourself a proper student of the Bible. Look into the realm of Bible hermeneutics; understand the history of the Bible, its formation, its contributors, its use; get hold of vital study tools: a Bible dictionary, an interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament and Greek-English New Testament, a concordance, several scholarly Bible commentaries (that shouldn't always agree), and begin to really chew on what God has said in His word. Also, becoming a member of a solid, Bible-preaching community of believers will help greatly in testing the correctness of your interpretation of the Bible and settling you in right doctrine. To that end I would suggest you join any one of the churches I've mentioned above.

 

[FireDragon76]

But not necessary in your view to make it to heaven....right?

If you believe works are strictly necessary, you do not believe in justification by faith alone and you are not a Protestant.

 

[patrick jane]

Titus chapter 2
King James Version
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you believe works are strictly necessary, you do not believe in justification by faith alone and you are not a Protestant.

Do you think works are strictly necessary?

If not, you haven't read your bible, or you don't believe Jesus. And this may come as a shock to you but obedience/being good is strictly necessary as well.

Here ya' go...

Jesus on works:

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jesus on obedience/being good:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

You act as if I should be offended because you say I'm not a protestant, but I know that, I'm not any denomination. Is not being that a bad thing?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Titus chapter 2
King James Version
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Was there a particular point you were making?

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you think works are strictly necessary?

No, of course not, I'm a Lutheran. The issue of works is why we parted ways with Rome over 500 years ago.

If not, you haven't read your bible, or you don't believe Jesus. And this may come as a shock to you but obedience/being good is strictly necessary as well.

I am declared good for Christ's sake. It is God's gift which is not dependent on my merit or works.

We do not negate the words of Christ but we understand being a disciple of Christ differently from the biblicists that rely on works-righteousness. God himself makes us disciples through hearing the Word and receiving the Sacraments, none of which are human works because they are carried out by Christ's own ordinance and command.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jesus is not preaching works-righteousness here but he is showing the kinds of works that are pleasing to God and that Christians in general should do. It is quite a mistake to see being Lutheran as "antinomian". We have a different understanding of the place of works in the Christian life, one that is more nuanced than the purity mentality of conventional religion in Anglophone countries.

 

[patrick jane]

Was there a particular point you were making?

I think scripture makes the point quite clearly without my commentary. I highlight and stress what I believe to be important words to remember and meditate on..

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, of course not, I'm a Lutheran. The issue of works is why we parted ways with Rome over 500 years ago.

I get it, some just don't want to do what's required, so they find a denomination styled after just what they do or do not want to do/believe.

I am declared good for Christ's sake. It is God's gift which is not dependent on my merit or works.

Then, as I said, I guess you didn't read the bible or have chosen to ignore it. The truth right there in front of you.

We do not negate the words of Christ but we understand being a disciple of Christ differently from the biblicists that rely on works-righteousness.

Is that why you are Lutheran, it allows you to believe other than what Jesus clearly said? How in the world you understand this differently is beyond me, but it certainly is an indication what you do with other scripture.

Here's is how that works, and it's very simple. We don't like what the bible says, and we don't want to do what the bible says, so we sit down and find a way to see it another way, then teach that, and since there are many that feel the same as we do, we will get a following. Teach them the twisted view and our way of understanding it until, before you know it, someone is so caught up in it, they can no longer discern the meaning of even simple scripture, just as is happening here. Sad.

Jesus is not preaching works-righteousness here but he is showing the kinds of works that are pleasing to God and that Christians in general should do.

Call it what you like, he is teaching, do the works or Go to Hell, or did you not see the part where he sent them to hell for not doing the works? What does it take to make someone see what is right in front of them when they are in clear/severe denial? Astonishing... this degree of denial never ceases to amaze me.

These are very teachings some of you are biting on, hook line and sinker....we're saved, and no matter what we do or don't do, it's in the bag, when the contrary is right there in front of you. "But oh no, Kenny, we have some twisted and misunderstood by design scripture here we would rather go with" A prime example of blinding ourselves to the truth, right here.

Jesus is very clear yet those that don't want to do the works always have some of the most bizarre explanations of that particular scripture. I've seen some real doozies too, your explanation is only medium bizarre.

Anyone else care to take a crack at refuting what Jesus is clearly telling us there?